Power Foci Options

[i101]

Hoi. I want to make this one fast ... One of my players doesnt believe me that a power foci "only" adds its force to all test in which the magicians magic is included, he thinks that a powerfoci also increases the maximum of ghosts that a magican can controll and that the power focis force can be added to the magicans magic attribut to cast overcasting spells without physical drain.

For example: Jagger the Sharkshaman has magic on 4, and runs a power foci (2). According to his version jagger could cast a force 6 spell and the drain would still be stun.

Sounds wrong to me, anyone here that could affirm this please?!

Thanks.

[Fortune]

You are correct as to how Power Foci work in SR4. Your Player is mistaken (or remembering earlier SR editions, where Power Foci worked in the manner they are describing).

[i101]

Thanks Fortune.

[jago668]

I can't see it particularly harmful to let it work that way if you want though.

[cryptoknight]

I can't see it particularly harmful to let it work that way if you want though.

Force 16 stunball at character creation is one reason...

Force 16 Powerball or Manaball is another.

It's like two free initiations + magic attribute increases...

Also look end game.... instead of magic 12 from 6 grades of initiation... you get to deal with Magic 24 (Magic 12 + focus 12) and force 48 spells.

[jago668]

Force 16 stunball at character creation is one reason...

Force 16 Powerball or Manaball is another.

It's like two free initiations + magic attribute increases...

Also look end game.... instead of magic 12 from 6 grades of initiation... you get to deal with Magic 24 (Magic 12 + focus 12) and force 48 spells.

Your own fault for letting it in the game if you didn't want to deal with it?

[ixombie]

Force 16 stunball at character creation is one reason...

Force 16 Powerball or Manaball is another.

It's like two free initiations + magic attribute increases...

Also look end game.... instead of magic 12 from 6 grades of initiation... you get to deal with Magic 24 (Magic 12 + focus 12) and force 48 spells.

I wouldn't disagree with you, except that nobody could soak force 48 no matter what. I mean, using power foci is definitely broken. But a force 48 spell would have a base 24 drain, which would require on average 72 dice to soak. Anyone who tried to cast that would be dead. No. Matter. What.

[Jaid]

Your own fault for letting it in the game if you didn't want to deal with it?

the thing is, if you have to stop the players from getting their hands on it or the game goes up in flames, then why did you houserule it into existence in the first place? why not just stick with the (already powerful) regular power focus, which is still completely worth it, and thereby not have to worry nearly as much about a force 6 power focus showing up.

[jago668]

the thing is, if you have to stop the players from getting their hands on it or the game goes up in flames, then why did you houserule it into existence in the first place? why not just stick with the (already powerful) regular power focus, which is still completely worth it, and thereby not have to worry nearly as much about a force 6 power focus showing up.

Just saying if you don't like it don't let it in. Same thing with any piece of gear. We've been doing it that way in our game because I thought that was the way it worked. I took a force 2 power foci to make up for a point of bioware. The so far only two of the spells I have cast would have counted as overcast without it, and those didn't do any drain damage so total effect on campaign = zero.

As for houseruling it and then limiting availability. A force 12 power focus isn't sitting on the shelf at your local Magic R Us store. Sure you can picke up say a force 1 - 3 fairly easy, past that they aren't going to be easy to find anyways. Player wants a force 12, let him make it himself. That or he can run around trying to find someone else that can make it, that will make it, and then get up the ingredients for it. A force 12 is the focus of an entire campaign, hells a dragon or two might send people around for that kind of thing. Not to mentiont the what, 96 karma it takes to bind it. Why not a F36 spellcasting foci and just withold its dice for drain soak, overcast everyspell for free. Anytime you go out to the extreme things look bad.

Then an easier rule is just limit foci to no more than a persons magic rating. So without initiation a person can get a F6 foci. Great, when are they are they really going to cast a F12 powerball? 9 drain, no thank you, and if they do it's only going to be once until they heal anyway. I don't have a problem with a person knocking themselves out to put out one helluva spell.

Like I said, I just don't think allowing it is going to break a game. Especially not at the lower end of the power scale which is where most games are going to take place.

[Jaid]

nobody casts a force 4 fireball either, so that's beside the point. they use force 12 stunbolts instead.

but regardless, why houserule something into existence if you're just going to not let anyone get it? if you're just gonna tell them they can't have it, then why add it in the first place? why make a special house rule that makes a power focus awesome, and then declare that nobody is allowed to have an awesome power focus because they're too good?

[Riley37]

So that the NPCs with the super awesome power focus can be extra scary and have an imbalanced advantage. Oh, and if the focus loses its bond with them (eg they die), it becomes nonmagical, self-dispels, crumbles into dust.

F2 Power Focus at chargen strikes me as an optimal move: highest available, costs 10 BP worth of nuyen, 2 BP to bond, and adds to DP for Spellcasting, Ritual Magic, Summoning and Binding, allows going over the skill maximum... not much point in having Spellcasting that delivers more hits than your Magic rating, but getting more services on Summoning and Binding is always good.

I'm gonna guess that one aspect of owning a F4+ Power Focus is keeping possession of it. Yeah, you're a badass for having it, but assuming you sleep sometimes, certain people may try to take it from you. Kinda like having the Hunted quality. Or having the BFG in multiplayer FPS.

[Riley37]

"a force 48 spell would have a base 24 drain, which would require on average 72 dice to soak. Anyone who tried to cast that would be dead. No. Matter. What."

Troll Hermetic mystic adept with Improved BOD to 13, thus Physical damage track of 15 boxes; soft-maxed WIL and LOG plus soft-maxed EDG for 14 dice to soak; a good roll and a few rerolled 6s could soak 7 boxes, leaving 14, and our heroine doesn't even need a trauma patch. One can even do that build within 400 BP chargen, except for the part where she can cast at Force 48. More reasonable and balanced builds, eg Hermetic Dwarf with cerebral booster, would need the trauma patch but would be quite likely to survive with prompt medical help (and they'd better have medical help pre-arranged).

If your interpretation of "anyone" includes dragons, well, then it's even more of an overstatement. See the thread on Great Dragon going Godzilla, and its option of Summoning high-Force Spirits.

Besides, anything that requires 24 drain is probably worth burning a point of Edge to survive!

[Fortune]

but regardless, why houserule something into existence if you're just going to not let anyone get it?

Because he already let them into the game in that configuration by mistake, and is now desperately searching for a way to defend that choice (rather than just fix his mistake).

[DTFarstar]

I would be alot more concerned about it increasing the number of spirits you can control than the other increasing the force you can cast without overcasting.

I mean, with a decent power focus you could have an octet guarding your ass instead of the standard 3 or 4. It would make most mages a LOT more powerful, at least in my experience. The limiter on spirits has been Charisma and not money. I mean, you could have an elven shaman at char gen with 9 Force 5 spirits at his beck and call with little effort beyond what he would normally spend on his character. I realize he could already have 7, but 2 more spirits would double or come close to doubling the average hermetic stable.

Chris

[jago668]

I'm just curious why most of you are letting zomg huge stuff into your games uncontrollably in the first place. You telling me you are perfectly fine with one of your mages having a force 12 power focus just like that. "You got the money, okay here you go." I seriously doubt that, and if you do then you are right you probably don't need to add the houserule.

Myself, you want a force 12 anything you are going to bust your arse off to get it, and then work twice as hard to keep it. Get a slow spot in the normal campaign, there ya go, instant something to run a game on. Heaven forbid you get it stolen and have to respend the 3 or 4 months worth of karma to rebind it to yourself. One to two months (game a week) of gameplay to find someone to make it, month doing stuff for them to talk them into making it, and another two months of gameplay getting the stuff to make it. So four to five months of play for one item. That is assuming that he doesn't have to spread it out even longer doing runs to pay rent, helping out teammates, etc. Then he is going to need to save up the karma from all that just to bind it the first time.

Like I said, just personally I don't see the big deal. Makes for one hell of a campaign. If you run stuff afterwards with a different group, makes for an awesome npc. It isn't just some random item, you are talking about the focus of a crazy story where dragons, great form spirits, and mega-corps are all competing and fighting for the one of a kind treasure. On the low end, a rating 2. Eh, sure your character is casting a slightly bigger spell. It isn't any more unbalancing that what is already possible, just moves the stun drain up a bit. Same spell, same effect, just falling over unconscious rather than dead.

Ya'll are getting hung up on technicalities instead of looking at what possibilities it opens up for campaigns. If you don't like it don't put it in, if you do like it and want to put it in then don't complain about how broken it is if you just pass out super high end stuff like candy.

[Fortune]

I'm just curious why most of you are letting zomg huge stuff into your games uncontrollably in the first place. You telling me you are perfectly fine with one of your mages having a force 12 power focus just like that. "You got the money, okay here you go." I seriously doubt that, and if you do then you are right you probably don't need to add the houserule.

But it is you that is allowing the House Rule in the first place!

You are hung up on Force 12, but even a Force 2 Power Focus that works the way you run things makes a huge difference in spellcasting (and summoning) potential.

Do you also allow dice from the Power Focus to be use for Drain purposes?

There is nothing in canon barring an Adept from Bonding a Power Focus (it can add to a couple of their Powers). Does that mean that in your games, Bonding a Power Focus immediately grants the Adept bonus Power Points equal to its Force?

[jago668]

But it is you that is allowing the House Rule in the first place!

You are hung up on Force 12, but even a Force 2 Power Focus that works the way you run things makes a huge difference in spellcasting (and summoning) potential.

Do you also allow dice from the Power Focus to be use for Drain purposes?

There is nothing in canon barring an Adept from Bonding a Power Focus (it can add to a couple of their Powers). Does that mean that in your games, Bonding a Power Focus immediately grants the Adept bonus Power Points equal to its Force?

Actually there is something that prevents an Adept from using a power focus. Page 85 SR4 mainbook, "Adepts may only bond to weapon foci. Magicians and mystic adepts can bondy to any type of focus."

As for the force 2 one. That is what my character has and it really hasn't impacted the game at all. I'd be doing more damage as a troll adept than as my mage. The rest it isn't really affecting at all. You aren't going to cast most non-combat spells over a certain force anyways. You will see a larger benefit to a mystic adept or cybered mage than one that starts out with a magic of 6 and takes a force 2.

[Fortune]

Actually there is something that prevents an Adept from using a power focus. Page 85 SR4 mainbook, "Adepts may only bond to weapon foci. Magicians and mystic adepts can bondy to any type of focus."

This has come up before (can't find the thread at th moment), partually due to this FAQ response ...

Since mystic adepts can use power foci, do the bonus dice from power foci also apply to any Magic Tests called for by an adept power?

Yes, they would apply to any test that calls for Magic dice.

Since there are a couple of Powers that actually do benefit from a Power focus, why would Mystic Adepts be able to tap into that internal power better than full Adepts? Add to that all the other kinds of Metamagic Foci that should be usable by Adepts (Masking, Centering, etc), the answer was that Adepts can Bond any Focus that they can make use of in some way.

As for the rest ... shrug. There's a lot of middle ground between Force 2 and Force 12. As long as you know that it is you that are playing with the house rule, and as far as I can see, you are the only one that is actually advocating and defending the house rule.

And you didn't answer my question on Drain.

[Ryu]

I can't see it particularly harmful to let it work that way if you want though.

Think spirit, force 7, at chargen. I´m not going into the math because we are just going to summon that beast, no binding. IF you suffer drain, it is only stun. The bonus dice already allow you to make indirect combat spells work, I do not want to see improved overcasting. Remember to say NO! to mages with magic 6 and high First-aid skills...

[cryptoknight]

Actually there is something that prevents an Adept from using a power focus. Page 85 SR4 mainbook, "Adepts may only bond to weapon foci. Magicians and mystic adepts can bondy to any type of focus."

As for the force 2 one. That is what my character has and it really hasn't impacted the game at all. I'd be doing more damage as a troll adept than as my mage. The rest it isn't really affecting at all. You aren't going to cast most non-combat spells over a certain force anyways. You will see a larger benefit to a mystic adept or cybered mage than one that starts out with a magic of 6 and takes a force 2.

Ok so you make a Mystica adept, put all your magic into adept powers and then bond the power focus for a bonus 2 more magic points worth of powers?

[Falconer]

Reading through this... thanks I was under impression that it raised the magic attribute directly as well... this changes a lot. Also because I was working on a talismonger w/ a power focus and this fundamentally changes what I thought I'd be able to do w/ a low magic attribute.

Since there are a couple of Powers that actually do benefit from a Power focus, why would Mystic Adepts be able to tap into that internal power better than full Adepts? Add to that all the other kinds of Metamagic Foci that should be usable by Adepts (Masking, Centering, etc), the answer was that Adepts can Bond any Focus that they can make use of in some way.

How about for one of the most basic reasons of all... he's only an adept... he's spent AT LEAST 15BP LESS than the mystic adept...
(10BP vs. 5BP and 1 magic left unspent min on magic powers==10BP, and makes karma raises more expensive later for buying more adept powers. Even worse once you actually start spending BP on magical skills the adept can pretty much forget about).

My tries at mystic adept creation has left me with the impression they're great ideas... but HUGE karma sinks. You're almost always better off going with pure magician or straight adept. The use of a focus only tends to make you as good as a normal mage w/o a focus at best. I'd be reluctant to see one of their few advantages ceded away.

Also there's no dichotomy at all between the FAQ and the main book. The question in the FAQ is if a MYSTIC ADEPT (emphasis) can also benefit on adept powers form a power focus. It answers yes. The question is not if an adept can, since an adept is obviously denied this by page85 of the main book. (And short of something in the FAQ/Errata which says unequivocally that this is in error and an adept can bound a power focus I read nothing in the FAQ to allow it).

I see no reason for a character who really wants to use a power focus with adept powers not to just spend the extra 5BP at chargen (or use the karma rules to switch them from an adept to a mystic adept later through GM intervention as they become more in tune w/ their 'mystical' side). Spend all their magic attributes on adept abilities, in which case they've basically spending 5BP on the ability to use better magical equipments later (well and to abuse mystic adept by only putting points in say 'counterspelling') (BBB: "Though this quality is inexpensive, gamemasters should be careful not to allow it to be abused. It should only be taken for characters that intend to explore their nature as mystic adepts." If this kind of abuse wasn't what the writers envisaged, what did they include that paragraph for?!

Here's another hypothetical thought along those lines... if we have a mystic adept with all his natural points in adept powers... under the older rules.. it raised his magic rating... so would enable him to cast spells and summon only while using the focus. Now this is no go since he technically has zero dice... or does the power focus add dice allowing it (though obviously all drain would be physical).

Clarifying my understanding on drain, rereading the focus section quickly. Since I don't see it answered... my take is that a power focus cannot have it's dice withheld for a larger drain pool. As the text allowing it is only found under the binding, summoning, and spellcasting focus. Also the drain test does not involve the magic attribute (only the wil + tradition), so there's no text that I see enabling or infering it.

[jago668]

And you didn't answer my question on Drain.

Why would it add dice to drain? It doesn't do that normally. Now spellcasting foci can if you hold back dice, but that is a special property of them in specific not bonus dice in general.

[Fortune]

Fine, so as asked above, would you allow a Mystic Adept to pump their Power Points by Bonding a Power Focus?

As to the Drain, I was specifically asking jago668 about that, seeing as he does use the house rule. I was interested in just how far he pushed that house rule. I am fully aware of the restrictions on Power Foci when it comes to Drain and the Magic Attribute.

Incidentally, Spellcasting Foci (according to an inane reading of the Errata) cannot be used for Drain purposes either, although the others you mention still maintain that utility.

Still doesn't address the Masking and Centering Foci, which should be freely available for Adept Bondage.

[Fortune]

Why would it add dice to drain? It doesn't do that normally.

Because they worked that way in previous editions, and you seem to be using Power Foci in the SR3 manner, so I was curious.

Now spellcasting foci can if you hold back dice, but that is a special property of them in specific not bonus dice in general.

You be needing to check the Errata on that. Stupidly, the Spellcasting Focus no longer has that ability.

[jago668]

Because they worked that way in previous editions, and you seem to be using Power Foci in the SR3 manner, so I was curious.



You be needing to check the Errata on that. Stuipdly, the Spellcasting Focus no longer has that ability.

Well damn, that makes me much less likely to be using high drain spells now.

As to the other, since I don't have any of the books except for 4th here (rest in storage). So I couldn't say then, maybe I would. Hold back dice from the casting and put it on the drain isntead. Hrm, I think I actually like that idea better than adding to Magic for overcasting, etc purposes.