Improved Invis, Just want to make clear for me Options

[cryptoknight]

Ok... BBB says

Physical Illusions: Physical illusion spells create actual
images or alter physical properties, such as light or sound.
Physical illusions are effective against technological systems,
assuming the caster achieves enough hits to meet the
Object Resistance threshold (see p. 174). They are resisted by
Intuition + Counterspelling (if any); non-living devices do
not get a resistance test. The observer must generate more hits
than the spellcaster to determine that the illusion is not real.
If the spell is not completely resisted, the character is fully affected
by the illusion.

Then BBB says

Invisibility (Realistic, Single-Sense)
Type: M • Range: LOS • Duration: S • (F ÷ 2)
Improved Invisibility (Realistic, Single-Sense)
Type: P • Range: LOS • Duration: S • DV: (F ÷ 2) + 1
This spell makes the subject more difficult to detect by normal
visual senses (including low-light, thermographic, and other
senses that rely on the visual spectrum). The subject is completely
tangible and detectable by the other senses (hearing, smell, touch,
etc.). Her aura is still visible to astral perception.
Anyone who might perceive the subject must first successfully
resist the spell. Simply make one Spellcasting Test and use the hits
scored as the threshold for anyone that resists at a later point. Even
if the spell is resisted, the subject might remain unnoticed if she
wins a Shadowing or Infiltration Test. An invisible character may
still be detected by non-visual means, such as hearing or smell.
Attacks against invisible targets suffer the Target Hidden
modifier (p. 141) if the attacker is unable to see or otherwise
sense the subject of the spell.
Invisibility affects the minds of viewers. Improved invisibility
creates an actual warping of light around the subject that affects
technological sensors as well.

Does this mean that Improved Invisiblity (a physical spell) doesn't need to make the object resistance threshold?
So if I have a character with Cyber eyes... do they need to overcome the object resistance test to be invisible to me or does the text as written here mean that they don't?

[Jaid]

Ok... BBB says


Then BBB says


Does this mean that Improved Invisiblity (a physical spell) doesn't need to make the object resistance threshold?
So if I have a character with Cyber eyes... do they need to overcome the object resistance test to be invisible to me or does the text as written here mean that they don't?

you still have to overcome OR and people still get a resistance test.

although cybereyes only have OR if they're not installed... when installed, the person who has the cybereyes makes a resistance check, and OR doesn't factor in at all.

try not to think about that too hard... your brain may explode.

[Adarael]

Oddly, given that:
Imp. Invis involves a "physical warping of light"...
And it no longer has grades of succes - you're either invisible to something or not...
And the fact that it does make you absolutely invisible, in that all light passes through you...

Means that IF you beat a high enough object resistance, you should technically be immune to all laser weapons.

Has anyone had this come up in their games?

[cryptoknight]

you still have to overcome OR and people still get a resistance test.

although cybereyes only have OR if they're not installed... when installed, the person who has the cybereyes makes a resistance check, and OR doesn't factor in at all.

try not to think about that too hard... your brain may explode.

Every time I think about Improved Invis my brain explodes... the rest of magic makes sense... this one spell just keeps confusing me

[cryptoknight]

Oddly, given that:
Imp. Invis involves a "physical warping of light"...
And it no longer has grades of succes - you're either invisible to something or not...
And the fact that it does make you absolutely invisible, in that all light passes through you...

Means that IF you beat a high enough object resistance, you should technically be immune to all laser weapons.

Has anyone had this come up in their games?

It gets better... since vision is reflected light hitting your retina, and improved invis warps light around you, no light makes it to your retina, making you blind.

[Adarael]

Yeah, but I chose to ignore that line of the description. I mean, the function of the spell is to make you inivisble, and it's obvious it does that. I figure that if the spell also made you blind, they'd probably have noted that.

This is precisely why I try to steer away from the "easy" science-y answers for magic. Because sometimes you end up blind.

[cryptoknight]

Yeah, but I chose to ignore that line of the description. I mean, the function of the spell is to make you inivisble, and it's obvious it does that. I figure that if the spell also made you blind, they'd probably have noted that.

This is precisely why I try to steer away from the "easy" science-y answers for magic. Because sometimes you end up blind.

Unless they expected that mages using it would have high levels of perception so they could find their way around blind?

[Adarael]

In support of this theory, maybe they assumed anybody who could turn invisible would be a ninja, and therefore had super-senses.

[Jaid]

like i said... try not to think about it too hard (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

otherwise you end up having a discussion like this, and trying to wrap your mind around something impossible.

i mean, so long as we're asking crazy questions, what happens if you turn on a flashlight within improved invisibility? or if you fire a laser?

the simplest way to handle it is to just ignore how logic tells you it should work, and decide that whatever it is that makes it work somehow manages to make you actually invisible while still allowing others to pierce the illusion and also still allowing light to pass through normally.

[kzt]

Or instead assume it's a dumb idea and ban it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) Admittedly, every mage I make has it....

[Riley37]

If you want to target an item with a spell, you must overcome its OR, but the target of Imp Invis is usually the caster. If you wanted to make a pair of goggles invisible, then you must overcome the OR; if you want to bend light around yourself, and someone tries to see you, the OR of their goggles or cybereyes doesn't matter.

Invisibility and how it might work has been discussed in various SF and fantasy venues for quite some time. Why are you treating this as a new question? One answer for how an invisible person sees: the field can work at only 90% across a certain area, and then focus that area's light input on the caster's eyes. Yep, that creates a patch of imperfection in the illusion, and the threshold to spot that imperfection equals the caster's Spellcasting hits.

[Fortune]

The subject of the spell is what you actually cast it on. The target of the spell is anyone trying to view the subject.

[cryptoknight]

So if a Rigger is driving a drone, and somebody has improved invis with say... 3 net successes on it.

Does the rigger driving drone automatically see him because he only has 3 and needs 4

or

does the rigger have to make a willpower test vs net successes to see the drone

and

if the rigger then jumps out of the drone, does the pilot automatically then see the caster

or

if the drone auto sees the rigger, and the rigger jumps into the drone, does the rigger then make a willpower test and if not enough successes, then the caster disappears until the rigger jumps back out?

[The Jopp]

I have a simple rule regarding invisibility regardless of the description that it bends light, makes fried potatoes or conjure flowers.

Since it is an illusion spell it fools the MIND of the one trying to pierce it, or SENSOR in the case of drones or devices.

Simple.

If they fail to resist it they WILL NOT SEE IT regardless of what medium they try to look through as their mind refuse to aknowledge it.

In the case of drones it’s the same thing, their sensors will not register it. Sure, it might be recorded but there will be no alarm raised or reaction from the drone.

This means that vision mods like ultrasound or anything would not work, not even a separate viewscreen from an independent system as the viewer simply does not see it.

NO detection mode works not even astral sight as they does not register it.

Best defense against invisibility would be lots of people or spell defense.

I use this because invisibility as a spell is almost useless with all the ways one can counter it per the RAW.

[cryptoknight]

I use this because invisibility as a spell is almost useless with all the ways one can counter it per the RAW.

No... there should be counters for it. Having a single uber spell just means everybody has it. Since they can have it at character creation, making it so uber just means every mage with 1/2 of a brain will take it.

At one point it was probably uber... but with enough people using it to rob banks, people came up with counters.

Besides, ultrasonic vision is counterable with a silence spell.

Thermographic vision used to be a counter to it... and that changed

[Jaid]

I use this because invisibility as a spell is almost useless with all the ways one can counter it per the RAW.

so in other words, you didn't think being invisible to normal sight was amazing enough, so you made it the most amazing spell in existence?

are you emo samurai's alternate identity or something? have you not noticed that just about every single mage build you will ever see already has improved invisibility because it really is that amazing? have you never seen the threads complaining about how hard it is to deal with a mage who has invisibility until they have the various methods of detecting invisible characters pointed out to them?

seriously, improved invisibility is probably in the top 5 spells every magician should take, no matter what.

[Adarael]

I'm a bigger fan of taking Physical Mask and buying a Chameleon Suit, myself. Mostly because if I want to be really invisible, I pop the chameleon suit and pull up some kind of spirit with Conceal.

I also like to con people by looking like other people, though.

[stevebugge]

are you emo samurai's alternate identity or something?

Uh oh, last time someone invoked that User ID all of it's threads were mysteriously bumped up to the front page, I pray you have not unleashed the terror again!

As for Improved Invisibility, I've considered banning it several times, just because it can derail a game in to a rules argument very quickly. The Pseudoscientific description about bending light has alway bugged me, mostly because ways to actually bend light almost always involve disgustingly large gravitational fields, though if applied this could be funny.

"I cast Improved Invisibility, then levitate down the hallway"

"How many hits on the levitate?"

"5"

"Not enoough"

"What?"

"You need 1 x 10^50th more, the invisibility increased your mass by 50 orders of magnitude to bend the light, oh and the floor below you is starting to give way"

[cryptoknight]

As for Improved Invisibility, I've considered banning it several times, just because it can derail a game in to a rules argument very quickly. The Pseudoscientific description about bending light has alway bugged me, mostly because ways to actually bend light almost always involve disgustingly large gravitational fields, though if applied this could be funny.

I can agree to that... thought I'm all for it... it just happens to be the most perplexing and confusing spell because it's description is perpelexing... (see questions above about drones)...

I'd love to see the conversation between an AI (with an ORT of at least 5) and a rigger friend.

AI: "Hey jump into the drone man and check out the fragger walking down the hall"
Rigger: (fails willpower vs imp invis) "Where? I don't see anything."
AI: "Right there, in front of the camera, look I'll highlight him with a laser target designator"
Rigger: "Nope I see nothing"
AI: "!@#%@#%$"

That or of course the whole if no light reaches your eyes, you can't see angle.

Player: "Ok I case improved invis"
Me: "Ok, how many hits?"
Player: "4"
Me: "Ok make a perception test"
Player: "Ok I got 2 hits, what do I see?"
Me: "You don't see anything"
Player: "Ok I walk down the hall"
Me: "You fall into a spike trapped pit... soak *dice rolling* 7P damage"
Player: "Was it hidden, why didn't I see it?"
Me: "You didn't get enough successes to peer past the light barrier of your invisibility spell"

[Sponge]

"You need 1 x 10^50th more, the invisibility increased your mass by 50 orders of magnitude to bend the light, oh and the floor below you is starting to give way"

Not to be silly, but if you're going to discuss the scientific point of view, at the point where your mass starts bending light, it's the Earth moving towards you, not the other way around (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

DS

[stevebugge]

Not to be silly, but if you're going to discuss the scientific point of view, at the point where your mass starts bending light, it's the Earth moving towards you, not the other way around (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

DS

Ack you're right

That should have read "Oh and the ground is acclerating through the floor at you"