Best 1 essence worth of cyber for a mage Options

[Teulisch]

thats probably why ultrasound isn't an eye mod anymore- game balance for the mages. on the upside,it makes more room for extra optics.

the real edge of the radar sensor, is you have 100m of visibility that can see through walls, AND roll its rating dice as a long-range cyberware scanner. its a tactical wonder, to have access to that kind of data... never mind not having any blind fire penalty for shooting through closed doors or walls. plus it compromises a fair amount of building security, especially if you can lookup or down into the next floor... see inside elevators before they open... just think how much meaner that will make corp security. sales of radar-blocking paint will go up for certain.

[DTFarstar]

I just assume that the SR creators knew about as much about the difference between light and radar as they knew about statistics.

Chris

P.S. As an aside, Feshy, I am open to your arguments due in large part to the fact that I see about 60 nm farther on each side of the visible light spectrum than I should. Produces some weird damned effects sometimes, I swear.

[KCKitsune]

Uh, quick question everyone... WHERE does it say that Radar Sensors would not work with spell casting? Which book and what page? I only remember that there was the rule that only technological detection methods paid for by essence would work for mages.

[Kanada Ten]

I always liked the old "opening yourself up to astral" bit, rather than allowing any technological sense to affect the casting, boiling everything down to: if you could assense it with your third eye, you can hit it with a spell. No radar, no ultrasound, no magnification, no darkness or light. Meh. They tinted windows to stop mages randomly casting at people (er, what?) and the same sort of handwaving could make radar useless pretty quickly.

[Kyoto Kid]

I wonder if perhaps it's just the manner of focusing? Antennas and the like don't count as "focused" light? That'd make for a great plot hook. Some crazy techno-minded mage in his basement makes an exotic nanomaterial lens that allows him to optically focus radar waves... and goes around blasting people through walls.

...and then the 30 M long Tungsten rod, Tightly Focused Solar beam, or Flaming Cow lands on him. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Glyph]

Uh, quick question everyone... WHERE does it say that Radar Sensors would not work with spell casting? Which book and what page? I only remember that there was the rule that only technological detection methods paid for by essence would work for mages.

It's all on page 173. The spellcaster has to be able to see the target with natural vision - cyber or bio visual enhancements paid with Essence count, but technological visual aids that substitute themselves for the user's own visual senses cannot be used. So ultrasound, which overlays or replaces the user's normal vision with a topological map, could not be used. Radar sensors do the same thing. Both state that they replace the user's normal vision with a visual representation, so neither can be used for spell targetting.


As far as 1 Essence worth of deltaware, I'm a meat and potatoes man. I would get synaptic booster: 3 for a Reaction and initiative boost that I wouldn't have to sustain, and that couldn't be dispelled, along with cybereyes IV with lots of goodies, a datajack, a commlink, and a sim module.

[ShadowDragon8685]

What is 'vision', anyway?

You don't 'see' the world. Photons reflected off objects strike receptors in your eyeballs, which release electrical signals traveling backwards to your brain. These electrical signals are then translated into a representation of the world!

[Feshy]

I just assume that the SR creators knew about as much about the difference between light and radar as they knew about statistics.

Chris

P.S. As an aside, Feshy, I am open to your arguments due in large part to the fact that I see about 60 nm farther on each side of the visible light spectrum than I should. Produces some weird damned effects sometimes, I swear.

I don't really want to come off as arguing for it -- because I'm quite against it if only for game balance purposes. I'm just disappointed that the fluff handles it this way.

BTW, maybe you are one of those rare people who have four separate color receptors instead of three? I thought it only happened in women though, so unless I'm wrong about that or Chris is short for something, probably not (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

So ultrasound, which overlays or replaces the user's normal vision with a topological map, could not be used. Radar sensors do the same thing. Both state that they replace the user's normal vision with a visual representation, so neither can be used for spell targetting.

It doesn't have to be, though. Terahertz wavelength cameras exist now, and it's not at all a stretch to think that in the future this could be extended to radio. Even if not, terahertz cameras can see through many objects as well. That's no different from the infrared camera in a cybereye.

[KCKitsune]

It's all on page 173. The spellcaster has to be able to see the target with natural vision - cyber or bio visual enhancements paid with Essence count, but technological visual aids that substitute themselves for the user's own visual senses cannot be used. So ultrasound, which overlays or replaces the user's normal vision with a topological map, could not be used. Radar sensors do the same thing. Both state that they replace the user's normal vision with a visual representation, so neither can be used for spell targetting.

Actually Glyph, you are mis-reading the line quite badly. The line from pg 173 is as such (the bold is my highlighting the relevant section):

The next thing a magician must do when casting a spell is choose her target(s). A spellcaster can target anyone or anything she can see directly with her natural vision. Physical cyber- or bio-enhancements paid for with Essence can be used to spot targets, but any technological visual aids that substitute thenselves for the character's own visual senses - cameras, electronic binoculars, Matrix Feeds, etc. - cannot be used.

So to me this means that a character with Radar Senses can use them to target some poor slot on the other side of a wall... I might have to look into that... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[ShadowDragon8685]

So, if he's using ultrasound goggles, it's a no-go, because it's only an overlay that his meat eyes are percieving.

But if it's cyber, it's 'percieved' by his aura, as he shed his Essence integrating it with his Aura.





In other news, in addition to RF-inhibiting wallpaper, RAM material has become a popular insulation in corporate buildings. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Fortune]

Radar Sensors are not an eye enhancement. It is a wholely seperate sensor. Note that it is Headware, not Eyeware.

[ShadowDragon8685]

I fail to see how that matters, Fortune. It still becomes an integrated sense, paid for with Essance.

[Critias]

It specifies "vision" in the rules for spellcasting/targeting. In much the same way you can't target a spell with a super mega ultra scooby-sharp sense of smell, I don't think you could target a spell with any other non-vision enhancement (like ultrasound, which is headware rather than eyeware).

[JBlades]

I don't see why you'd take skillwires with a possession tradition, as (off the top of my head, don't have SM in front of me) all possession traditions, and only possession traditions, have access to task spirits...

[Glyph]

Actually Glyph, you are mis-reading the line quite badly.

Not really, since I said "cyber or bio visual enhancements paid with Essence count" in my post.

The next thing a magician must do when casting a spell is choose her target(s). A spellcaster can target anyone or anything she can see directly with her natural vision. Physical cyber- or bio-enhancements paid for with Essence can be used to spot targets, but any technological visual aids that substitute thenselves for the character's own visual senses - cameras, electronic binoculars, Matrix Feeds, etc. - cannot be used.

That's what disqualifies radar and ultrasound - they are not direct senses, but give an altered visual representation to the mage. If radar sense simply allowed the mage to see in that part of the electromagnetic spectrum, it would be all right, but that's not how it's described as working.

[KCKitsune]

It specifies "vision" in the rules for spellcasting/targeting. In much the same way you can't target a spell with a super mega ultra scooby-sharp sense of smell, I don't think you could target a spell with any other non-vision enhancement (like ultrasound, which is headware rather than eyeware).

Uh, Critias, when Augmentation says the following (bold and underlining are for emphasis):

This device emits ultrawideband and terahertz radar in short stepped-frequency pulses. An expert system analyzes the Doppler shift in the bounced signals and converts the information into a three dimensional "map" that overlays (or replaces) the user's visual senses, similar in some ways to ultrasound.

I think that if you allow thermographic vision, they you would allow Radar Sensors. Now I want to know why Radar Sensors and Ultrasound sensors in active mode have a "Full Darkness" modifier of -3. I mean they provide their own "light".

[Eyeless Blond]

Er, you read the next part, right? "similar in some ways to ultrasound." Ultrasound "vision" is the canonical example of a sense that you cannot use to target magic, because if you could then in principle you could target someone based on the sound of their voice as well.

Again, line of sight has a different and in some ways deeper meaning than merely being able to detect the target, otherwise there'd be no problems targeting someone from hearing their voice and/or footsteps around a corner, or via a live camera feed. There is something that must be metaphysically significant about specifically having Line of Sight to someone, a level of, intimacy for lack of a better word, that just doesn't happen over other kinds of senses, like hearing or smell, or radar or ultrasound.

Above all, though, the thing to remember is it's magic. "Making sense" is not really a priority here; it's magic, so even the laws of physics can go sit in a corner and cry, to some extent. There are a few cases where reason intervenes, for instance to tell us that Improved Invisibility cannot, as the book implies, be an actual bending of light, as that leads to several impossible contradictions. And we all know that one of the rules is that "A contradiction cannot exist in reality. Not in part, nor in whole." (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) This whole issue of sight and line of effect doesn't produce any contradiction, however, so that doesn't really apply here.

[Critias]

Uh, Critias, when Augmentation says the following (bold and underlining are for emphasis):

The rules of very specific. "Technological visual aids that substitute themselves for the character's own visual senses" cannot be used, as per the core rulebook. By your own quoting, the piece of gear you're referring to "overlays (or replaces) the user's visual sense." I don't see how you're quoting that text as an argument for that piece of gear to work. It's pretty obvious, for instance, that's it's the sort of thing the core rulebook is talking about when it says what doesn't work.

Now I want to know why Radar Sensors and Ultrasound sensors in active mode have a "Full Darkness" modifier of -3. I mean they provide their own "light".

And thermo still takes a penalty in complete darkness because thermo is crappy and grainy and innately not detail-oriented. Hell, go watch the Predator movies or play a little Rainbow Six or something. Things are fuzzy and blurry, and even with sixty years of upgrades you're going to be stuck with foreign heat signatures, extra layers of clothing, armor plating, cold weapons (or hot weapons), and all sorts of other background and everyday changes in heat signature keeping that vision type from being crystal clear for pinpoint accuracy. When you flip on thermo in R6, you then run around and you blast at heat blobs you find (and hope they're not just water pipes or electronics). That's not exactly eagle-eye perception there. A TN penalty makes sense.

[Ravor]

It's been mentioned before, but never ever forget the simple goodness that is the humble datajack. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[Kyoto Kid]

...letsee, I have three people, who's knowledge and interpretation of the rules I respect (even though we don't always see eye to eye on all issues) who have put up sound arguments and who agree that Radar Sense would not work for targeting a spell through a wall. Looks like my decision is made.

Yes, it is an issue of game balance vs fluff. In this instance Game Balance wins and in my campaigns that is the way it will be.

C'mon mages already have ritual location/targeting, Spirits that can track someone down (& can carry out an assassination if so ordered to), and spells which bypass pretty much most mundane defences. Being able to simply "look" through a wall in the meat world & fry some poor slot who is totally unawares it is coming is just a little too munchy Über for me. Vi cant hit him with her gun unless she overcomes the wall's armour and structural rating (which would require a much larger gun than she can use - like an MG or assault cannon) & even then the target gets extra armour from the barrier.

[KCKitsune]

@ Eyeless Blond & Critias, did both of you ignore the fact that the mage PAYS for Radar sensors with Essence? The book quite clearly states that any sense that is paid for with Essence is a legit means of targeting spells. Look at the examples from page 173:

cameras, electronic binoculars, Matrix Feeds

Those are external and are not paid for with Essence, therefore are invalid. It would be the same if the Mage had Low Light or Thermographic vision goggles, they don't work because the Mage didn't pay for them with Essence.

[Kyoto Kid]

...make that four people I respect who agree.

...apologies, EB. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/embarrassed.gif)

[KCKitsune]

OK, how about we send an offical question to the game developers and ask them about this question. That way we have "The Offical Word" on this issue.

[Kyoto Kid]

...fair enough.

[Critias]

@ Eyeless Blond & Critias, did both of you ignore the fact that the mage PAYS for Radar sensors with Essence? The book quite clearly states that any sense that is paid for with Essence is a legit means of targeting spells.

No. The book quite clearly states that it is vision that can be paid for with Essence (by way of enhancement) and still be a legit means of targeting spells. Again, you can't target a spell by sense of smell or hearing, no matter how enhanced they are. It is called "line of sight" for a reason. Sight.

Ultrasound is not a sight enhancement. It is not eyeware. It is not a vision modification. It does not influence line of sight. Yes, you paid Essence for it. Yes, for activities that aren't magical and nature and don't require "line of sight" you can sometimes use them to see where someone is and do mean things to them (like fire a gun or throw a grenade). No, that doesn't automatically mean it's a vision enhancement that you can then use for spell targeting (any more than a cyberarm, dermal plating, or wired reflexes are automatically vision enhancements that you can use for spell targeting, just because you pay essence for them, too).