Another mage question, How do you stop a glowing man? Options

[Dayhawk]

Personally, I'm a big fan of Quickening. You just have to know how to counter it.
Really, not much is stopping him from pulling the same trick with sustaining foci, supposing he spends his money on them.

Quickening Downfalls:
If dispelled you lose the Karma

Quickening Bonuses:
Harder to Dispell
Every Test made with a Quickened spell gets to add dice on a 1 for 1 basis for karma spent. (Not counting the additional karma which can be spent to make it even harder to disrupt)
No Cap. You can have as many Sustained spells at no penality as you are willing to spend karma
No Cap on max spell sustained. Overcasting a 12 force spell is only 12 karma. (Time to cast that armor spell rolling Edge to make sure I get my 12 hits)

Now if he does go down the Foci path, I think he is limited to how many he can have at a time (not 100% sure on that).

Also, try getting a foci 12 item. There was another post talking about that.

For my group its probably best to not open that can of worms.

If he wants to spend all his karma AND Nuyen (something that he doesn't have to do with Quickening) just to some of what he doing now then that's fine with me.

Looking back at it, im sure this was part of his plan to begin with as he has all 1's for every physical stat and just raised them with magic.

[Feshy]

Looking back at it, im sure this was part of his plan to begin with as he has all 1's for every physical stat and just raised them with magic.

I made that character once! All 1's for physical attributes, and a ton of quickened spells.

Of course, I made the character for Bug City, so there was a natural balance attained...

[Kyoto Kid]

...not sure if they included it in Street Magic, but back in 3rd ed, a mage could also get Tattoo metamagic which effectively doubled the Karma invested for purposes of the Quickened spell resisting attacks against it.

I don't recall if there was a cap on how many spells one could have quickened at one time, whether it was MA, or initiate grade. At work right now so no access to my SR material.

[Ryu]

You can have up to (logic) foci active while at most (magic) foci bound. A practical upper limit of 8, for those with augmented logic and several degrees of initiation. Very powerful options include Shielding Focus, Weapon Focus, Sustaining (Increased Reflexes, Combat Sense, Armor).

At 50k¥ and 10 karma per sustaining focus (rating 5) not exactly overpowered. Consider what a samurai can do with that.

[stevebugge]

Even better would be to simply talk with him and agree to a compromise. You already lost when you started the arms-race with your fellow player and tried to up him with your own better and mightier NPCs, where he feels that to seriously be able to compete and have his character survive, he has to maximize as much as possible.

Seriously, even lessening Karma awards and putting away one rule forcibly won't help that much.

You should play at a level that everybody agrees and is comfortable with.

This is really key to your restart working, talk about game expectations to make sure everyone is on the same page about power level or you'll have the same problems crop up using a different set of rules abuses. Also make sure that your players understand that for the game to continue it needs to be enjoyable for you to GM as much as it needs to be enjoyable for them to play.

[Cthulhudreams]

Quickening (and spell locks) are a crap idea in general. It allows the player to invest small amounts of karma for huge power boosts, that are easily defeated by the GM.

But thats not really a winnable situation, because if the GM issues the smack down, he'll break all the players toys permanently and get made out as the bad guy because he has started a GM vs Player fight - but thats the only way under the rules to respond to the situation (Thats how you are supposed to balance them!)

Ban them because they *suck* and either allow players to become hugely overpowered at low cost, or cause a GM vs the players mentality that just isn't good to keep them in check.

[GryMor]

He sounds a lot like one of my characters (high Edge, sustained support spells, low physicals), except Quickening is way too much of a Karma sink for my tastes (especially since most of the time, I'm casting the support spells on other people who can't afford to have always on spells).

Shouldn't be too hard to ablate his karma... I mean spells, a little bit. Take the Improved Reflexes for example, he only has 11 dice + karma to resist it, is there any reason a security mage guarding the installation he's assaulting wouldn't make a few attempts at depowering him from the safety of his offsite fiber network after the watchers inform the mage of the marauding super aura? I mean, if someone is lit up that brightly it's apparent that direct spells aren't going to do a damned thing so why not try and make the target a bit easier for internal security? It will at least get him to burn through his edge pool.

Lets ballpark this, a rating 4 sec mage with Mountain mentor spirit, so he's good at counterspelling (+2 dice), but also, once he gets the plan to 'depower the magical threat so building security can deal with him' he will have trouble not trying again, even if it doesn't appear to work the first time. The only issue is going to be seeing the spells, but that could be handled by a high force Detect Magic, Extended, which goes against the force of the spells (actually, looking at dispelling and detect magic, the security mage wouldn't even need LOS from a fiber network). Total dice of around 12 to 16 for dispelling, more if he happens to have some appropriate spirits bound and is willing to use some aid spellcasting services.

So long as you don't make too much of a habit of it (unless they run into the same security mage again, as is likely if they are hitting a particular organization repeatedly), it can't really be called being vindictive, and when there is a good counterspeller present, it may be the ONLY even remotely effective action a sec mage can take without getting pasted. Just make sure he's a bit of a ways away from the installation (possibly covering an entire office park, it's not too hard to get the detection to cover a half kilometer radius or so) and make sure their is the normal diversity of wards present to prevent easy scouting and stealth (you may be able to pass through a ward with a spell active, but you can't do it without the wards casters KNOWING about it).

[Fortune]

...not sure if they included it in Street Magic, but back in 3rd ed, a mage could also get Tattoo metamagic which effectively doubled the Karma invested for purposes of the Quickened spell resisting attacks against it.

It's a Quickening variant in SR4.

[Ravor]

Personally I've houseruled Quickening to temporarily eat a point of Magic for each spell "sustained" because when it ate Karma no-one was willing to take it, now at least it has it's uses and is fairly self regulating. (The max Force for each Quickened spell is determined by the Mage's current Magic, not her Magic when she quickened the spell.)

[Kronk2]

Even better, not only does Father X-Mas glow on the Astral, but he is also a fragging Wireless leak?

I've changed my mind, don't give the moron a second chance, just crush him under the weight of his own atupidity.

Actually radar is sound based and would not be fooled by even an improved invis spell.

[Ryu]

It is very interesting to have a number of sustained spells "on". Sustaining foci are balanced because they provide a stat bonus of 1 per 10k¥ and two karma, plus 5 karma for the spell itself. Samurais can do a better, but don´t have magic skills. That is balanced. The real loosers in that game are adepts, so much that I could be talked into giving out a magic point with each initiation.

Quickening is only desireable if the GM is to nice to do anything against it. Spending more karma on quickening is doubly effective - the spell gets more resilient, and the investment to-be-taken-away larger. I´ll say cast mana barrier in front of the mage. Good defensive strategy against mages anyway, and if he walks through, even better.
Only mana spells can travel to the astral plane, and astrally perceiving is dangerous as hell. Even maxxed reaction+astral combat is nothing to write home about, with each spirit rolling double force. I´ve yet to see a mage that could hope to survive an encounter with a force 12 spirit on the astral plane. Mana bolt only works if you go first, and you better make that first shot a takedown. 24 attacking dice on top of a base DV 6 is about as WEAK as it gets there.

[Ravor]

Sure Kronk2, but with Father X-Mas leaking wireless signals all over the place corp-sec doesn't need toys like radar or ultrasound, they just have to throw lead in the general area of the commlink traffic they are detecting. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[Herald of Verjig...]

Actually radar is sound based and would not be fooled by even an improved invis spell.

No, it's light. Different frequency, but still photons.

(You may be thinking of sonar and its variants.)

[Dayhawk]

I had a long talk with the mage in question.

He agreed to my refactoring of the game and reducing characters to 32 karma. But, since he really doesn't like Shadowrun, there is a chance he might just quit. We will see.

[stevebugge]

No, it's light. Different frequency, but still photons.

(You may be thinking of sonar and its variants.)

Technically no, RADAR is not light and light is not RADAR. Light is a narrow spectrum of Electromagentic Radiation, RADAR uses other spectrums of Electromagnetic Radiation in a process similar to echo location (which is basically what SONAR is). RADAR is not light anymore than an FM radio signal, an X-Ray, Gamma Radiation, or Microwaves are.

[cryptoknight]

Well thanks again for all the input.

I have decided to nuke the site from orbit.

We play once a month and it was the mage who as complaining from the get go that 2-7 karma a month would be too darn slow.

I agreed to up the karma by a factor of 3, which 8 months later here I stand.

We will just start over, and give everyone 32 karma to build from.

I plan on house ruling that Quickening can't be taken, since it was a big part of the problem.

Triple Karma rewards is the big part of the problem... Karma when it's harder to get isn't going to be frivolously spent on quickening spells... when it can be used instead for sustaining foci... it slows things down that way.

[cryptoknight]

No Cap. You can have as many Sustained spells at no penality as you are willing to spend karma
No Cap on max spell sustained. Overcasting a 12 force spell is only 12 karma. (Time to cast that armor spell rolling Edge to make sure I get my 12 hits)

12 Karma is at least 3 runs to get... cut your rewards back to normal levels and you won't have people spending 3 missions worth of Karma to quicken a force 12 spell.

[Kyoto Kid]

It's a Quickening variant in SR4.

...crap.

Actually radar is sound based and would not be fooled by even an improved invis spell.

...as stated in the description of the ware which is why I like it. Just give a sec guard rating 1 so he can see any invisible PCs. Doesn't necessarily have to be powerful enough to look through armoured walls to be useful.

[cryptoknight]

Actually radar is sound based and would not be fooled by even an improved invis spell.

Ummm no... Radar is not acoustic, that's Sonar. Radar is EM Band emissions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radar

[Orient]

He quickened Improved Invisibility?

*laugh*

Ouch. The inconvenience in day-to-day activities alone would get to anyone, I think. Say, getting peed on in public restrooms. "Sorry! Didn't know you were there!"

Are force 4+ spells still illegal to use without a special permit? If so, the fact that he's lit up like a neon sign on the astral is going to garner some attention. And if he's questioned by authorities, he's not going to be able to present ID very easily.

Edit: I wonder how his grooming habits have changed since he quickened Invisibility...

[Erebus]

Technically no, RADAR is not light and light is not RADAR. Light is a narrow spectrum of Electromagentic Radiation, RADAR uses other spectrums of Electromagnetic Radiation in a process similar to echo location (which is basically what SONAR is). RADAR is not light anymore than an FM radio signal, an X-Ray, Gamma Radiation, or Microwaves are.

Actually, yes, all EM Radiation is carried by photons. However, we can only see photons when they are at a certain frequency, that of light. Basically, photons aren't only restricted to "light"

[Feshy]

Actually, yes, all EM Radiation is carried by photons. However, we can only see photons when they are at a certain frequency, that of light. Basically, photons aren't only restricted to "light"

Does it travel at the speed of light? Yes. Is there (to date) only one thing that can do that? Why yes, there is. Light. Ergo, it's all light.

It's not all visible light, of course. Radar (and especially doppler radar) use techniques other than lense focusing to generate an image. It's still all light, though -- as is all EM radiation.

Now, magic may not discriminate against photons so much as visible photons, that's your call. Plus, given radar's extreme sensitivity to distance, and that improved visibility "bends light" around the target, the radar image might show a longer path where the character is. If visual is showing you a flat wall, and radar is showing you a wall with a metahuman sized dent in it, start shooting.

Edit:

<-- See? The metaplane with the lizards. I regularly purchase UV lights for them. They don't call them UV emitters. (Though, they do with the infrared. Bah, inconsistency!)

[suppenhuhn]

light is electromagnetic waves of a certain band of wavelengths, that doesn't mean other em waves are light. Thats like deducting from a statement like all fishes are animals that all animals are fishes.

[Ryu]

Does it travel at the speed of light? Yes. Is there (to date) only one thing that can do that? Why yes, there is. Light. Ergo, it's all light.

It's not all visible light, of course. Radar (and especially doppler radar) use techniques other than lense focusing to generate an image. It's still all light, though -- as is all EM radiation.

Now, magic may not discriminate against photons so much as visible photons, that's your call. Plus, given radar's extreme sensitivity to distance, and that improved visibility "bends light" around the target, the radar image might show a longer path where the character is. If visual is showing you a flat wall, and radar is showing you a wall with a metahuman sized dent in it, start shooting.

Edit:

<-- See? The metaplane with the lizards. I regularly purchase UV lights for them. They don't call them UV emitters. (Though, they do with the infrared. Bah, inconsistency!)

I think my sarcasm detector may be broken. Are you serious? That a certain well-known scientist made his observation on light does hardly make any EMR into light. And invisibility works in the magic dimension of things, were obviously photons differ in more than wavelength.

[stevebugge]

Magic could probably care less about Photons. It probably cares a lot more about the nature of the receptor or sensor. Basically is the receptor or sensor an eye or a technology intended to emulate an eye (like a camera). It's the same reason a Power Focus shaped like a spear doesn't work as a weapon on the Astral, it wasn't meant to be a weapon even though it's shaped and looks like one. Radar isn't meant to be a technological eye, neither is a Magnetic Anomally Detector, or a Thermometer. Chances are for this same reason if you were able to hit an invisible target with a laser you would damage it, becasue it isn't trying to see the invisible character, it's trying to destroy him. Now the fluff about bending light causes a lot of problems with Improved Invisibility because it's very vague and has implications far beyond the intent of the spell.