Stun rounds vs vehicles Options

[RedmondLarry]

Dende, in the staging you talk about, are you describing "overflow" from the stun condition monitor to the physical condition monitor, or some technique for staging beyond 10 boxes of Stun delivered in one attack?

[BitBasher]

[Ol' Scratch]

Uhm, no it's not. It's based directly upon the Power of the attack. A hold out is going to have a TN of 2, whereas a Panther Assault Cannon is going to have a Power of 9. If they were loaded with Gel Rounds, the Power would be 4 and 18 respectively, assuming the latter could use Gel Rounds for purposes of this example.

Unless you're talking about the effect, but that's just silly. The effect of a hold-out pistol's knockback isn't going to knock most people down. The effect of a PAC's knockback is going to knock most people down.

[Tanka]

OK, simple solution. It only has one monitor, and it makes no difference between Stun and Physical. If you take a baseball bat to a car, what happens? Damage. If you take a gun to a car, what happens? Damage.

There you have it, even if it does stun, it still damages the same. Forget whether or not it does stun or physical and just apply the damage as-is.

[TinkerGnome]

[Tanka]

The baseball bat and the gun are not doing the same strength in damage.

If you can get a guy that can hit as hard as a bullet hits, then the answer would be that they do the same (Excepting piercing) amount as each other.

Edit: The average person with a baseball bat does 4M Stun. The average person with a gun does anywhere from 4L (Hold-out) to 10M (Heavy pistol).

[Ol' Scratch]

Right. Give a sledge hammer to a troll (Strength 8, assuming it's a STR+1M Stun weapon) and let him go to town on the vehicle. Then give some schmoe with an equal skill level in Pistols a heavy pistol. In my opinion, they're going to do about the same amount of damage.

[Dogsoup]

I'd just stage down the DL another level. 5S-Stun becomes 2L when hitting a unarmoured vehicle, but thats's just my houserule.

[BitBasher]

Doc, whta I was addressing is that no matter the weapon, the effects of knockdown are identical. One meter or not, and standing or not. The power of the weapon just increases the odds of it happening.

[Ol' Scratch]

Which to me, suggests that it's more than a mental shock at getting hit. If it were purely mental and had nothing to do with the kinetic energy of the blast, Gel Rounds wouldn't double the target number. Sure, the designers decided against putting in a distance dependant upon the Power of attack (which I'm thankful for, as that could have gotten pretty silly in some circumstances I'm sure), the context behind what's happening is more than just a stunned stagger at being shot.

[Corporate Raider]

Although I follow Tinkergnome's quote from SR3 pg. 145, and rule in my games that stun damage does not affect vehicles, there is an even more bizarre situation that results, which hasn't been mentioned yet.

That Body 1 Armor 0 electrically powered drone gets to ignore taser jolts and smacks from stun batons.

:P

[Kagetenshi]

That's already covered under electricity-based attacks.

~J

[Ol' Scratch]

The point your missing is that it shouldn't need to be a rule -- taser jolts and stun batons only do Stun damage. So if Body 1, Armor 0 electrically-powered drones get to ignore it, it suggests that some other types don't. Thus, some other types suffer damage from Stun attacks (even if the damage isn't labeled as Stun on the condition monitor).

[mfb]

dende had a good point. if you stage the attack to D+2 stun, the vehicle will take an L wound. it's hard to do, but it should be hard to put a hole in a car with a round that's designed to not make holes.

and as far as 'knockdown' goes--don't drivers have to make crash tests, when their vehicles take damage?

[Hasaku]

Doc, tasers do stun damage and can have secondary effects from the jolt, as per combat manipulations. See the appropriate section on elemental effects.

edit: It's just that, against a vehicle, the secondary effect is the ONLY effect since the jolt isn't enough to physically damage the vehicle, but it may be enough to affect sensitive systems.

[Zazen]

"Vehicles do not take Stun damage, so they have only a physical damage track" is almost as clear as they could have possibly written it, guys. They lack the track for stun damage because they don't take stun damage, not because it automatically overflows into physical or any other such thing.

I understand the desire to let vehicles, especially small ones, get banged up by baseball bats and big metal poles. Just let them do physical on-the-fly when you feel it makes sense. Creating a weird new interpretation that lets Bruce Lee destroy a car with two or three jabs is not an elegant solution. :)

[mfb]

no kidding. the vehicle damage rules are hinky enough as-is.

[Zazen]

[Ol' Scratch]

Uhm, no it's not. As I said before, it can easily be read to be saying "Vehicles do not take Stun damage, so any damage they take is considered Physical damage on their one and only track." Stun is a biological type of damage, but that in no way makes vehicles immune to bludgeoning attacks.

According to you guys, if an unarmored Body 0 rotodrone were to come by, you couldn't hurt it by bashing the $#*@ out of it with a bat... and that's just ludicrious.

[mfb]

so is totally destroying a car with a burst of gel rounds, doc.

[Ol' Scratch]

That one's a matter of opinion. I still have little problem with it.

[mfb]

so is totally destroying a car with a burst of gel rounds, doc. besides which, we're arguing that you can-- you just have to rack up 8 successes in one roll to do it.

edit: ack, bug. and, yes, that's a matter of opinion. if you're of the opinion that a round which is designed to not puncture human skin can suddenly blow through a steel car body and take out the engine, that's your opinion. it's so inane it's cross-eyed, but it's an opinion.

[Ol' Scratch]

I'd rather have one or two bizarre situations occur because of a sensible rule (which can be found in just about any rule in the game) than not have a rule which results in even more ridiculous situations. The logic being used with the vehicles is the same for any inanimate object; if a vehicle can't be destroyed by a sledge hammer or baseball bat, why should anything else?

[Kagetenshi]

The reference that comes immediately to mind is Magic in the Shadows page 52, but it's not applicable in this circumstance. Looking for non-spellslinging reference...
Rigger 3 page 101 has the Zapper Strip, and page 27 has the notes for electrical effects on riggers.

~J

[mfb]

doc, a vehicle can be destroyed by a baseball bat. that body 0 drone? with a little luck, a lucky guy with 4 skill in clubs could take it down in one hit: 4 skill +4 cp vs TN 3 (reach), and the rotodrone doesn't get to dodge or counter. come up all successes, and it's down.

contrary to popular belief, it's hard as hell to destroy a car with a sledgehammer. bust up the windows? dent the body? maybe bend the rims? sure. but when you're done, the car will still turn over and go when you hit the gas.