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> Detection Spells, Kinda Gimped?
Eyeless Blond
post Feb 24 2008, 08:27 AM
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In SR3 the spell design rules specifically had Detection spells with a lowered Drain Level, relative to other spells, to reflect how they don't actually affect targets. Catalog, for example, would not have the same Drain Code as a Medium Powerball, for example, as one just saw things and the other blew them up.

Clairvoyance no longer works with vision mods that you paid Essence for or are natural for your type (low light vision, etc).

Needing five or more successes to detect a drone seems a bit harsh.

Anyone here have a character specialize in Detection spells? Do they seem to be a bit less useful than before, or am I out of my mind?
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Whitelaughter
post Feb 24 2008, 02:01 PM
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I've noticed that Mind Probe isn't as useful as it used to be - the target always knows about the intrusion, and has a good chance of keeping stuff secret.

I think detection spells have potential to be tweaked via spell research. Detect Enemies detects hostility; how about a spell that detected sexual desire? Suits would pay highly for a Detect Ms Right Now spell, and the drain would be lower given you could make gender specific versions. A good way of earning money between runs.
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Dantic
post Feb 24 2008, 02:02 PM
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I don't understand your reasoning fully here.
Why five or more successes? What spell are you using to detect and what counters is the drone using to remain hidden?
Drain is not bad for detection spells. that I can tell. The base for most detection spells is half the force, or half the force modified, sometimes even lower. I think SR4 just tried to clean up the rules some, in SR3 the rules contradict some, as it claims normal vision can not be used, but that "other" vision enhancments can, including natural ones. I don't think this neccesarly means natual low-light or thermo, but maybe adept powers and cyber mods only.
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Ryu
post Feb 24 2008, 03:38 PM
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Oh, I think I see the problem.

You yourself are the subject of most detection spells, most of them being passive. Reread the description of detection spells in the grimoire part of the book.
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ixombie
post Feb 24 2008, 04:08 PM
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Combat sense is the king of self-buffs. With the primacy of surprise and defense, nothing makes a mage more combat capable than a big boost to both. Say what you will about other detection spells, but combat sense is amazing.
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Eyeless Blond
post Feb 24 2008, 08:54 PM
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QUOTE (Dantic @ Feb 24 2008, 06:02 AM) *
Why five or more successes? What spell are you using to detect and what counters is the drone using to remain hidden?

Catalog (my favorite spell from 3e) now requires 5 successes to see a drone, because it was decided that it was an Active, Area sense so you have to beat the drone's OR even to notice it. 5 successes (thus Force 5) gets you the most basic information ("You see a drone"); you need more to figure out what kind of drone it is, or what it's doing.

The Drain is F/2 +2, the same as for Manaball, Increase Reflexes, Mob Control or Shapechange.

The same as Combat Sense, in fact, which would indeed kick ass if the act of sustaining it didn't negate 2 Force worth of the spell.
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WeaverMount
post Feb 24 2008, 09:31 PM
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I've only playing SR 4 so I can't talk about if/how detection magic got nerfed. I am playing a Combat/Detection mage right now and it's so good I have to rein in it's full my full potential, because I just can't take the cheese. First off. Combat Sense is in fact as amazing as izombie says. Don't forget Analyze Device, it's hits bonus dice to using a device, like oh a vehicle, a gun, or anything test you can make only using one object. Clairvoyance type spells are similarly amazing as they are basically unstoppable. Remember that the caster is the target so there is literally nothing for your target to see. You Never have to walk around a corner blind. You can find where everyone is hiding and they don't have a chance of knowing they are under surveillance because the actual spell is in another room. Spacial Sense isn't quit the win like the rest, but knowing all the entrances and exit and how secured they are hundreds of feet out is still really good.
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cx2
post Feb 24 2008, 09:50 PM
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I think what people are saying is you don't cast the spell on what you want to see, you cast it on who you want to see it. Thus drone OR is a non issue. Sort of backwards thinking, but seems to work better.
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pbangarth
post Feb 24 2008, 10:34 PM
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WeaverMount mentions a lot of the detection spells I like.

With Analyze Device in particular, there is no weapon or machine with which you are not 'skilled', hence it gives a lot of flexibility to the character.
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Ryu
post Feb 24 2008, 10:41 PM
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Street Magic has Catalog as passive spell. As it should be.
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ixombie
post Feb 24 2008, 11:39 PM
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QUOTE (WeaverMount @ Feb 24 2008, 04:31 PM) *
I've only playing SR 4 so I can't talk about if/how detection magic got nerfed. I am playing a Combat/Detection mage right now and it's so good I have to rein in it's full my full potential, because I just can't take the cheese. First off. Combat Sense is in fact as amazing as izombie says. Don't forget Analyze Device, it's hits bonus dice to using a device, like oh a vehicle, a gun, or anything test you can make only using one object. Clairvoyance type spells are similarly amazing as they are basically unstoppable. Remember that the caster is the target so there is literally nothing for your target to see. You Never have to walk around a corner blind. You can find where everyone is hiding and they don't have a chance of knowing they are under surveillance because the actual spell is in another room. Spacial Sense isn't quit the win like the rest, but knowing all the entrances and exit and how secured they are hundreds of feet out is still really good.


Whoa! Good call on analyze device. I always just read over it, like "who the hell wants bonus dice to analyze a device?" But it's bonus dice to using it too...

As for clairvoyance though, meh. It's cool and all, but you can get similar results with radar vision or a periscope. Or you could astrally project and poke around that way, too.
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WeaverMount
post Feb 24 2008, 11:57 PM
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ixombie you are right that the effect of clairvoyance can be duplicated any number of ways. The only amazing thing about the clairvoyance spells is that that they are totally undetectable. Yes you could send a drone into the room, but they could see it, find the node, or identify the signal. Yes you could send a watcher but it will be spotted instantly by anyone one on the astral. Similarly the vision mods aren't that hard to come by, hell some races get thermo. Unless you have done tons of leg work, it's not a safe bet to think that you have a vision mode they don't Compare those options to the PoV of the clairvoyance spell- an undetectable non-entity. Surely you can see how useful that is.
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Eyeless Blond
post Feb 25 2008, 12:22 AM
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QUOTE (Ryu @ Feb 24 2008, 02:41 PM) *
Street Magic has Catalog as passive spell. As it should be.

Did they errata it? The book I have lists it as (Active, Area), with Drain of F/2+2, the same as Manaball and Shapechange.

But yeah, Combat Sense and Analyze Device are pretty awesome. Do you generally count the sustained spell against the specific action the spell was cast for? For example, do you get the -2 to Reaction when dodging if the spell you cast was Combat Sense, or the -2 for using the device you cast Analyze Device on?
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Ryu
post Feb 25 2008, 01:02 AM
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German First Printing.
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Eyeless Blond
post Feb 25 2008, 03:37 AM
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Hm. We seem to have some important differences then:
QUOTE ("Street Magic @ p. 167)
Catalog (Active, Area)
Type: P • Range: T • Duration: S • DV: (F÷2)+2

Catalog allows the subject to compile a comprehensive, itemized list of all the non-living items within the area of the spell. The subject can write or dictate a list of the quantity of all items in range of the sense in a manner similar to automatic writing, as long as the caster beats an item’s Object Resistance threshold (p. 174, SR4). Net hits obtained indicate the level of detail and description the list provides. Once the spell is dropped, the subject will not recall the exact numbers or items. Items in the area that the subject would not recognize by sight are listed as “unknown.� The caster must touch the subject of the spell.


I note that I did miss that objects don't win ties, so you only need four hits on a drone to know there's a drone around, but you still need 6 or more to determine what it is and even more to figure out what it's doing.

How different is the German version?
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Eyeless Blond
post Feb 25 2008, 06:32 AM
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Analyze Device and Combat Sense are also spells that I have a hard time with, because they're active, and thus your bonus dice depend on a resitance test. Note that targets are the ones who resist active detection spells; and passive detection spells are unresisted.

This means that for Analyze Device, for example, you have to meet or beat the threshold to get any successes at all. Most things that a runner would want to Analyze have a Threshold of 3-4+, so that's 2-3+ bonus dice right off the top. Then you have to sustain it; Sustaining foci above Force 3 are unavailable at chargen, so, unless you're planning on a maximum of 2 bonus dice for most very simple (OR 2) or 1 die for most modern objects (OR 3), you also have a sustaining penalty of -2 dice. Meaning that, until you can either buy that Force 5+ sustaining focus, you're better off not using magic and just defaulting unless you can cast Analyze at force 6 and get at least 6 successes.

Combat Sense is a little better, but it has some of the same oddities that it had in SR3. It's an Active, Area spell, so everyone in the area makes resistance tests, and your net hits are your bonus dice for Surprise and defense against that particular person. This becomes a bit of a logistical nightmare when you have more than 1-2 opponents, doesn't it? You have to note your net hits against each enemy, so you know how many bonus dice you get against that person?

Clairvoyance is okay, though it is more limited in SR4 than SR3, and could be more limited still. Is the "visual point" meant to be LOS only; in other words, can it go through walls? In SR3 this was an open question; it doesn't look like SR4 clarified the matter much, to look at the spell description.

Or am I just way off here?
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Whipstitch
post Feb 25 2008, 07:34 AM
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Wait, am I on some kind of alien planet where Area Thought Recognition, Detect Enemies, and Detect Life don't exist or something? Because they are awesome sauce.
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Whipstitch
post Feb 25 2008, 07:34 AM
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...bleh.
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Ravor
post Feb 25 2008, 08:29 AM
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My thoughts exactly. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)
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Ryu
post Feb 25 2008, 10:19 AM
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How different is the german version? I looked up the spell table, its passive there. The spell description has it active, as the english version. I guess we found an error for the errata.
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Fortune
post Feb 25 2008, 11:17 AM
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QUOTE (Ryu @ Feb 25 2008, 09:19 PM) *
I looked up the spell table, its passive there.


It is listed as 'Active' in the Street Magic spell tables.
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Ryu
post Feb 25 2008, 11:28 AM
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QUOTE (Fortune @ Feb 25 2008, 12:17 PM) *
It is listed as 'Active' in the Street Magic spell tables.


Not in the german version.
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Particle_Beam
post Feb 25 2008, 11:46 AM
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If in doubt, the english version is always the correct one.
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Ryu
post Feb 25 2008, 12:40 PM
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If in doubt, group consensus has to be used. Knowing the english RAW is pure chance for us, but would certainly influence our decision. We are using the english errata for the german RAW, for a long time by now, but that can´t catch translation errors.

As most mages will have no problem generating the required successes, if need be by recasting, I´ve got no problem accepting that Catalog needs to beat OR.
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Whitelaughter
post Feb 25 2008, 12:51 PM
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QUOTE (Eyeless Blond @ Feb 25 2008, 04:32 PM) *
Sustaining foci above Force 3 are unavailable at chargen, so, unless you're planning on a maximum of 2 bonus dice for most very simple (OR 2) or 1 die for most modern objects (OR 3), you also have a sustaining penalty of -2 dice.

True, but don't forget Edge; successes from Edge aren't capped by the Force of the spell.

Also, a Spirit of Man can cast the spell on you so that you don't need to maintain it; or you can cast it on another runner (especially useful in sniper duels).
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