Fourth Ed and me, I adapt slowly Options

[BlueMax]

After playing Shadowrun from public release, I am now running a 4th Edition game. Poorly.
I can't achieve balance and I don't know how to direct character growth.


Fight Balance
At first, I wanted to blame my lack of time. Work, kids, wife, thats why I don't get it yet... but no. Like so many people who couldn't figure out how magic worked in first edition, I don't get fight balance now.

If I make two lieutenants(semi named baddies) for a fight, they either cannot even annoy the physical adept in HTH or they do serious damage to everyone else. Let's chalk this up to the adept being a Troll and move on.

If I attack the party with an AoE spell, its curtains. Even with the mage in the party attempting to defend the group, any capable magician throwing for twice magic sends the party to their graves (or just really messed up in the case of the Troll).

The players shoot to kill, the bad guys are the "bad guys" right? So, they aren't working from a higher moral standpoint. And often, when intending on killing the runners, the baddies have to pack some heavy heat in hopes of getting past armor.

Missing Crutch: Dice Pools. In the case of spells, the characters get Willpower against someones Stat+skill and I am missing how to counter the skill difference. (not to mention that not everyone has a high Willpower)

Character Growth.
Fourth Ed, non magical, Characters start near the top of their game. They have one or two points of stat or skill to increase tops. After that it just seems to be, "round out the character". What am I missing?
I don't get why any skill uses Magic for an attribute if Magic is the only stat without a cap.



This is not a rant about 4th Ed, I like it so far. I just don't get understand it that well. Any suggestions, hints, reminders of the blantantly obvious are welcome.

I want to get my 4th ed groove on so I can run an even better game.

[Slymoon]

Throwing my ear into this arena as well. I am about 2 months off from running my first SR4 game (having ran games from the release of SR2... long time ago).

Aside from attempting to absorb the rule changes and not having them mix with the existing SR database. I am really interested in hearing about the pitfalls and nuances between SR3 and SR4 prior to finding them firsthand.

[GryMor]

Missing Crutch: Dice Pools. In the case of spells, the characters get Willpower against someones Stat+skill and I am missing how to counter the skill difference. (not to mention that not everyone has a high Willpower)

Magic + Spellcasting + [Edge] - Visibility Modifiers vs Willpower + Counterspelling + [Edge]

Group Edge for the 'bad guys' tends to even things out, also, unless he's a Prime runner, the overcasting mage probably just took himself out from drain.

Character Growth.
Fourth Ed, non magical, Characters start near the top of their game. They have one or two points of stat or skill to increase tops. After that it just seems to be, "round out the character". What am I missing?
I don't get why any skill uses Magic for an attribute if Magic is the only stat without a cap.

Arsenal opens up more options, also, mundanes can get more bang for their bug from Nuyen and essence expenditures.

[djinni]

If I make two lieutenants(semi named baddies) for a fight, they either cannot even annoy the physical adept in HTH or they do serious damage to everyone else. Let's chalk this up to the adept being a Troll and move on.

most people in shadowrun do not do Hand to hand, they shoot alot, are you doing melee combat or ranged?

If I attack the party with an AoE spell, its curtains. Even with the mage in the party attempting to defend the group, any capable magician throwing for twice magic sends the party to their graves (or just really messed up in the case of the Troll).

overcasting hurts, its the same as going in to work and you can go home early if you nail your hand to the table with a butter knife. if your players are doing it they should be incurring alot of penalties. also counterspelling if your mage didn't take it then tough you SHOULD beat them down.
remember the NPC's need to have zero edge when they die.

The players shoot to kill, the bad guys are the "bad guys" right? So, they aren't working from a higher moral standpoint. And often, when intending on killing the runners, the baddies have to pack some heavy heat in hopes of getting past armor.

its pretty easy to get past armor but the main challenge of shadowrun isn't the combat. its in doing the run to the satisfaction of the J. the J says get in and get out make it like you were never there... they shoot someone they don't get paid.

Missing Crutch: Dice Pools. In the case of spells, the characters get Willpower against someones Stat+skill and I am missing how to counter the skill difference. (not to mention that not everyone has a high Willpower)

counterspelling

Character Growth.
Fourth Ed, non magical, Characters start near the top of their game. They have one or two points of stat or skill to increase tops. After that it just seems to be, "round out the character". What am I missing?
I don't get why any skill uses Magic for an attribute if Magic is the only stat without a cap.

non magic are far from the top of their game. make them roll skills they don't have.
stealth? electronics?

[nathanross]

Missing Crutch: Dice Pools. In the case of spells, the characters get Willpower against someones Stat+skill and I am missing how to counter the skill difference. (not to mention that not everyone has a high Willpower)

Limiting the mage's power is one of the hardest things to do in SR4. Because Drain is much easier to resist than SR3, they can cast higherlevel spells and make it much harder for the mundane to resist. All I can say is memorize the modifier table. That is the ONLY way you are going the mage, other than always having a mage there to fight him.

Character Growth.
Fourth Ed, non magical, Characters start near the top of their game. They have one or two points of stat or skill to increase tops. After that it just seems to be, "round out the character". What am I missing?
I don't get why any skill uses Magic for an attribute if Magic is the only stat without a cap.

I dont know about you, but I have yet to make a character that is truly on top of his game. You can start out much higher in one area than you used to though, but they still have a long ways to go in other areas. I try to encourage everyone to start out well rounded, and then advance up. Not everyone likes this though, and you will have to deal with those nails that stick up however you can. Usually they get cocky and stick their neck out too far. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Jaid]

just to make sure the OP is clear on this, counterspelling is applied in full to everything the mage is protecting, it is not split up like it was in earlier editions. thus, if the mage has counterspelling 4 (combat +2) then everyone he protects gets 4 counterspelling dice (6 if it's a combat spell). likewise, a counterspelling focus is an excellent investment at chargen, particularly for those scary direct combat spells.

also, don't forget that the spell's force caps *total* hits, and thus a force 4 manaball (which is about what you'd expect in a manaball from a 'standard' NPC mage i'd say) would be capped at 4 hits gross, not net, for a total maximum of 8 damage (that's quite unlikely though... chances are, the target will resist some of it)

[ixombie]

Mundanes have two aces in the hole against mages: speed and edge. Most cybered characters are much faster than most mages. And mages need line of sight to cast. So chances are, magey boy is getting shot before he casts. Invisibility shouldn't matter, because all mundanes should have a radar or ultrasound system to protect against just such an eventuality. And if he's a mega stealth master mage... only use those if you want your party to die for real real.

And then edge. Normally, mages are going skill(spellcasting) + attribute(magic) vs. the PC's attribute(willpower). But when they Edge, they get attribute + attribute, with exploding dice, which should protect them decently as long as they're not silly billies who didn't take much edge. Seriously, taking low edge in SR4 is like voluntarily lowering your karma pool in SR3 for no reason (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)

Finally, don't go handing out 6's in skills and attributes to all the NPCs. I know that in SR3, 6 was crap. Everyone could start out with 6's in almost everything right out of chargen. 6 was supposed to be world class, but it ended up being standard -- you had to have 10-12, which was double world class, to effectively be world class... But in SR4, characters pay through the nose to max an attirubte, and are limited to one single skill at 6. A 6 is a big deal. Your basic enemies shouldn't have them, at least right when the runners are out of chargen, 6's are the province of prime runners only. If you're throwing out a mage who can blow past the characters' magical defenses, including all the lighting and visibility modifiers that might apply, before they can ever take a shot at him, your mage is probably too strong.

[Whipstitch]

You don't always really have to do much damage to make runners sweat. If you start making it clear that time is often against them in many situations merely making the opposition rather durable can keep tensions running high. To this end spirits, vehicles and drones are tremendously useful since they are easy to set up so they have outsized durability relative to their actual firepower. Plant Spirits and Steel Lynx in particular make great cannon fodder; drones and vehicles shrug off stun damage easily while Spirits are durable and specialize more in disabling people rather than outright killing them, which is nice because they can let you cause runners plenty of problems without insta-gibbing them like some other measures would. Plus Spirits and Drones offer a way for skilled Magicians and Riggers to quickly provide some measure of security to multiple facilities even from a distance, so it's not unreasonable to expect most facilities to have a few modest Spirits bound to an area and a couple of heavy duty combat drones for a corp rigger to jump in from remotely. Always remember that nobody said the security rigger has to keep all his drones online and on the same network as the rest of the security, so it's not like the Hacker should be easily able to take over ALL of a facility's security for his own ends.

[Ravor]

Also something that I have personally found is that ALOT of Fourth Edition's headaches simply go away when everyone agrees to play using lower dicepools, remember that the average professional Dicepool is ( Rating 6-8 ) so the Runners don't have to be throwing bucketfuls of dice themselves.

[BlueMax]

just to make sure the OP is clear on this, counterspelling is applied in full to everything the mage is protecting, it is not split up like it was in earlier editions. thus, if the mage has counterspelling 4 (combat +2) then everyone he protects gets 4 counterspelling dice (6 if it's a combat spell). likewise, a counterspelling focus is an excellent investment at chargen, particularly for those scary direct combat spells.

also, don't forget that the spell's force caps *total* hits, and thus a force 4 manaball (which is about what you'd expect in a manaball from a 'standard' NPC mage i'd say) would be capped at 4 hits gross, not net, for a total maximum of 8 damage (that's quite unlikely though... chances are, the target will resist some of it)

Jaid,
Both of these I know. I just feel sorry for the poor slots when the mage is already down and cant counterspell. (or more likely, the mage couldn't make it that night). It seems that for mundanes, one mage can ruin your whole party.
The force 4 spells don't bother them at all. Its after they have geeked a few of the other goons and the opposing mage lays down a 6 (or 8 if he has the drek in him) that they fold like a house of cards.

Also something that I have personally found is that ALOT of Fourth Edition's headaches simply go away when everyone agrees to play using lower dicepools, remember that the average professional Dicepool is ( Rating 6-8 ) so the Runners don't have to be throwing bucketfuls of dice themselves.

Big thanks. Its hard for my early Edition brain to drum up the idea that 8 is professional and thats likely what has to change. It doesn't help much that my players put their characters up on boards like this for review. I laughed when a magically active character was supposed to have simsense vertigo. "You ain't getting points for something that doesn't hinder you".


Ack. Missed a quote. By "top of game" I mean they can't add dice to their chosen skills. By rounding out, I meant adding more skills. So for Mundanes, I guess you round out.

[djinni]

I laughed when a magically active character was supposed to have simsense vertigo. "You ain't getting points for something that doesn't hinder you".

then you are missing the bigger picture. he can't join the group doesn't know what they know in combat all he has are the voice comm not the instant ffid that comes with AR. vertigo hurts you more as a mage.

[Abbandon]

Hey I just wanted to say that you dont have to break through armor and inflict Physical wounds to hurt the players. I just had a battle here on the boards where my character was only taking stun damage cuz of all his armor and as it was building up I was like...."oh crap!! Im about to get knocked out from all this stun damage....with my next IP im gonna take my armor off so i can start taking physical and stay in the fight longer lol. "

Once they are knocked out you can do whatever you want to them. So you dont have to make them bleed to hurt them.

Another option is to just call your shots!! aim for vulnerable spots.

[Zak]

For one, every character should be able to handle himself in combat - except he is staying home.
Unless you are going crazy on the dicepools (from my guts I'd say it gets kinda silly above 15/16 for combat abilities) any member of the group shouldn't get completly hosed without standing a chance.

Shadowrun is not taking place in a fair environment, and it is not your job to play it save on those who decided to gimp themself in certain aspects, just to 'max out' something else.

Magic is tricky here, as it can easily overwhelm anyone not awakened. But there have been enough threads exactly on this topic. In my experience the problem was more a problem on paper and metagaming than in game.

[BlueMax]

then you are missing the bigger picture. he can't join the group doesn't know what they know in combat all he has are the voice comm not the instant ffid that comes with AR. vertigo hurts you more as a mage.

/me gets out his cane and holds onto the onion on his belt
I may be missing the bigger picture, as was the point of this thread. But I am not sold on all this Fancy AR being needed to communicate in a team. We didn't have them for generations before and teams did just fine.

I'll look for other threads debating the inability to shadowrun in 4th without AR. That may be exactly what I have yet to understand.

[Jaid]

wait, your team doesn't geek the (enemy) mage first? who trained these people?!?! shoot the bloody mage in the face and he won't be casting anything at you. seriously, worrying about the third or fourth spell is like complaining that the third or fourth grenade that lands in the middle of your group is causing problems.

alternately, it's quite simple to counter a typical mage. IR smoke, for example, blocks out the mage's line of sight. if he can't see you, he can't cast a spell on you, or at you. in fact, the 10 meter radius of a smoke grenade means he probably can't even lob an indirect elemental spell in your general direction and hope to catch you in the radius unless he's dropping a force 11+ on you (and if the mage is good enough to soak the drain for a force 11 ball lightning just on the off chance he might hit you... ummm... yeah... just shoot yourself. seriously. you're not going to win against that... )

simply put, deny LOS to the enemy magician and you will find your life expectancy greatly increased against him. the best form of LOS denial is to make him dead or at least unconscious, since dead/unconscious mages don't generally have any options to get around the LOS denial.

[Dashifen]

AR isn't necessary (the Micro-Transceiver is still in the gear chapter of SR4 after all) but it can certainly help. I disagree that the mage needs it just as much as others since mages are often the front-line for astral defense and AR doesn't translate into the Astral. Regardless, it can be done, but the ability to use AR effectively and as a team can really help out a group (translating into +1 to +3 for dice pools).

The other thing you can do to help reign in your mage is the selective and careful use of Background Counts. Use them too much, or too heavy handedly and you'll just end up with an angry player. But if you have the chance to use it and it's appropriate to do so, Background Counts reduce an Awakened character's Magic attribute by the absolute value of the Background Count as long that're within it. And yes, that means Adepts lose powers, too. It's rough for Awakened characters, but it can help to limit their power. There's more information in Street Magic if you need it.

Also, don't forget spirits. If the mage is focused on handling spirits, then they might not be dropping major spells on the opposing force. Meanwhile, that force can be using non-lethal but nasty spells on the team like Bugs, Agony, Phantasms, etc. from Illusions or even some the emotion spells. Use Mob Mood on the runners and give them feelings of peace and tranquility right in the middle of a fire fight (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)

[Slymoon]

... as long that're within it. And yes, that means Adepts lose powers, too. ...

What! Where Who When!

Missed that I did. How do you determine what powers are lost while in the background?
And where is that, missed it in my BBB reading.

[Cain]

I dont know about you, but I have yet to make a character that is truly on top of his game. You can start out much higher in one area than you used to though, but they still have a long ways to go in other areas. I try to encourage everyone to start out well rounded, and then advance up.

As has been well-established, it's entirely possible for a character to be both at the top of his game, and well-rounded.

As for his original problem, one way of dealing with this is to allow players to purchase Aptitude multiple times, even for the same skill. They still need to raise the skill with Karma; but now it works in a fashion similar to a mage with Initiation.

[ixombie]

What! Where Who When!

Missed that I did. How do you determine what powers are lost while in the background?
And where is that, missed it in my BBB reading.

Adepts that suffer a reduced Magic
attribute temporarily lose powers as
a result; the player must choose 1
Power Point worth of powers to be
nullified for each point of Magic reduction.
In the case of mystic adepts,
the gamemaster determines whether
the reduced Magic attribute deducts
from his magician abilities or adept
powers first, but the player gets to
decide on which adept powers are
temporarily lost.

[Kagetenshi]

Finally, don't go handing out 6's in skills and attributes to all the NPCs. I know that in SR3, 6 was crap. Everyone could start out with 6's in almost everything right out of chargen. 6 was supposed to be world class, but it ended up being standard -- you had to have 10-12, which was double world class, to effectively be world class...

SR3, p99, Skill Ratings table:

Skill 6: "The skill becomes Innate. You no longer think about using it. Whenever you use the skill, your mind and body are one. The skill is less an action performed and more a triggered reaction. You concern yourself with performance rather than style and effect."

Skill 8+: "Only two words can describe your use of the skill: World Class. Regarded as someone who defines the skill, you perform it perfectly; you also grasp the nuances, adapt and refine it, as if you are recreating the skill every time you use it."

Skill 6 was never, ever presented as world-class in SR3. Highly-skilled, certainly, but it isn't even Expert—that's 7.

~J

[djinni]

AR isn't necessary (the Micro-Transceiver is still in the gear chapter of SR4 after all) but it can certainly help. I disagree that the mage needs it just as much as others since mages are often the front-line for astral defense and AR doesn't translate into the Astral. Regardless, it can be done, but the ability to use AR effectively and as a team can really help out a group (translating into +1 to +3 for dice pools).

no thermo, no low light, no flare comp, no radar, no ultrasound, no smartlink, no camera's giving alternate angles, yeah vertigo sucks in 4th like hung out to dry sucked in 3rd.

[BlueMax]

no thermo, no low light, no flare comp, no radar, no ultrasound, no smartlink, no camera's giving alternate angles, yeah vertigo sucks in 4th like hung out to dry sucked in 3rd.

The goggles, zey do nothing?

Or at least thats how we did it back in the old days. I am reading up on this Augmented Reality stuff. I can see benefits to HUDs but I haven't sold myself that one has to be able to hear,see, touch or smell the matrix just quite yet.

[Method]

I think another thing that is frequently overlooked in SR4 (as in SR3) is the need for perception tests in combat. Situational awareness is absolutely crucial in combat, but no character should be able to know everything that is going on all the time.

As the GM, you should tell your players only what is immediately obvious and make them (and the NPC's) expend actions to Observe in Detail. Anything that compromises situational awareness (darkness, crowded streets, spam zones, glitchy cybereyes, plain clothes cops, etc) should increase the frequency of OID actions necessary to fight effectively. Glitches can result in friendly fire incidents, dead bystanders, dead contacts, damage to the top secret prototype whatzit they are trying to steal, etc.

The net result is that this makes combat way more tactical and interesting (IMHO) and curbs mages just enough, since any OID simple action will preclude their ability to cast that pass (which often means they must wait until the next turn). It also makes Multitasking one of the best adept powers in the game.

As a side note, the lack of situational awareness that results from not using AR could also mean that your mage with Simsense Vertigo needs to expend even more simple actions to OID.

And BTW- Welcome to Dumpshock... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

[ArkonC]

The goggles, zey do nothing?

Or at least thats how we did it back in the old days. I am reading up on this Augmented Reality stuff. I can see benefits to HUDs but I haven't sold myself that one has to be able to hear,see, touch or smell the matrix just quite yet.

Well, yes, goggles with those mods do do something, they trigger simsense vertigo... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Also, about mages being too powerful, it is just a matter of not having a good way to counter usually...
But this goes for pretty much all specialists, to protect against magic, you need someone who knows magic, but to protect against a hacker, you need someone who knows hacking himself, hell, to protect against a street sam, you need your own streetsam...

As for characters starting at the top of their game...
Yes, if you make a character that uses only 1 skill, you can usually max out your dice pool at chargen, but calling this one-trick-pony "at the top of his game" seems like a massive overstatement...
If the character needs more than one skill for his role (which all roles do), you can start good, but there is always room for improvement...

Just my 2 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) ...

[ixombie]

SR3, p99, Skill Ratings table:

Skill 6: "The skill becomes Innate. You no longer think about using it. Whenever you use the skill, your mind and body are one. The skill is less an action performed and more a triggered reaction. You concern yourself with performance rather than style and effect."

Skill 8+: "Only two words can describe your use of the skill: World Class. Regarded as someone who defines the skill, you perform it perfectly; you also grasp the nuances, adapt and refine it, as if you are recreating the skill every time you use it."

Skill 6 was never, ever presented as world-class in SR3. Highly-skilled, certainly, but it isn't even Expert—that's 7.

~J

IXOMBIE HATE SEMANTICS! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)

Seriously. 6 was supposed to be awesome and it ended up being standard. 1000 pardons for using the wrong adjective to get across the same meaning.

As for characters starting at the top of their game...
Yes, if you make a character that uses only 1 skill, you can usually max out your dice pool at chargen, but calling this one-trick-pony "at the top of his game" seems like a massive overstatement...
If the character needs more than one skill for his role (which all roles do), you can start good, but there is always room for improvement...

It is an everlasting source of consternation that people who have played SR3 say that SR4 characters are too powerful. Um... What?? In SR3, you could max out as many things as you wanted with no penalty. B attributes plus some cyberware could easily max out (or exceed max) on every single stat. And it was a simple matter to have a 6 or better in all of your job's specialties. I once made a rigger/decker/sniper/stealth/b&e character in SR3 who was awesome at all of those things right out of chargen.

In contrast, SR4 penalizes every maxed attribute, and limits you to one (1) maxed skill. You are forbidden by the game's very system from being at the "top of your game" in more than one thing. It's impossible. You can be skilled in several things, but you can't start without room for improvement. You might be able to start good enough that improvement is not a priority, but until you're maxed out, don't go telling me you have no room to grow! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sleepy.gif)