Mind Control and Security, Brain waves Options

[Dayhawk]

If someone was under magical mind control, would a brain scan show their thought patterns as being different then they normal look?

[stevebugge]

If someone was under magical mind control, would a brain scan show their thought patterns as being different then they normal look?

I think this is wholly in the realm of GM discretion.

Logically it probably would generate increased brain activity, though since it is a magical effect it might not.

If you as the GM decided it did, the subject would still need to have an implant to monitor for the effects, and either a computer program or expert watching the feed to determine what was happening.

It would be a pretty paranoid facility that had the secguards implanted with a monitor connected to a monitoring program and also loaded those guards with say an auto injector of some sort of tranquilizer. Additionally while that sort of set up might help with mind control spells (if it worked) it may be vulnerable to hacking so it's a trade off.

[Jaid]

i would say it depends on the spell. influence, probably not. control emotions, maybe (i think you could notice the change in emotions technologically, but conclusively demonstrating that it isn't because the guard just thought about something that changed how they feel would be difficult). control thoughts probably, because you'd suddenly start thinking in a way completely unlike yourself. control actions absolutely, because the body and the mind would be arguing with each other. which has got to look weird in how the brain reacts.

i would also say that given you resist those spells on a regular basis, it is entirely possible that an appropriate device could register that resistance.

on a side note, devices that scan your brain are pretty danged cheap and common in shadowrun. they're called trode nets. if that wasn't sufficient for some reason, i would say a simrig at least would qualify for getting enough information to notice the mind control.

[stevebugge]

The hardware I agree is common and fairly cheap, it's analysis software I expect might be a bit pricey.

[nathanross]

Im not sure Id make Trodes/Sim modules able to instantly know that the brain is acting strangely, though I definitely believe it is within the capability of the hardware given correct monitoring software. This could be quite fun, especially if your mage uses Mob Mind like there is no tomorrow. Id say maybe device rating gets chance to detect spell, using the detect magic rules. A higher force Mind Control would be easier to notice than a lower force. Also GM should do it on a spell to spell basis, as Instant spells would give the device less time to notice an abnormality.

[Kyoto Kid]

...the thing is aren't the Control Thoughts/Emotions/Action sustained spells that require line of sight? This would mean the mage would need to keep a constant bead on the sec guard. That could prove difficult if he (the guard) went around a corner, behind an obstruction, or through a door.

[stevebugge]

I thought that you could sustain a spell without line of sight, you only needed line of sight to cast. IS that correct? or do spells drop the second the target is out of sight?

[Ravor]

I don't know, personally I think I'd require a SimRig as opposed to a mere datajack or sim module, but yeah, all but the most stuble spells should show up with the proper equipment.

[nathanross]

...the thing is aren't the Control Thoughts/Emotions/Action sustained spells that require line of sight? This would mean the mage would need to keep a constant bead on the sec guard. That could prove difficult if he (the guard) went around a corner, behind an obstruction, or through a door.

Common KK, you only need LOS to cast. After that they're your bitches! Course, my personal preference is to watch them, because otherwise I don't know what they are doing exactly and can't react appropriately. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Aaron]

If it was me, I'd just apply the rules for noticing spellcasting. If the tech on the scanner manages to come up with (6-Force) hits or better, she notices something odd in the readings.

[Aaron]

Oh

[Aaron]

good

[Aaron]

grief.

[hyzmarca]

My preference is to Mod Mood everyone into insatiable lust such that the guards stop guarding in order to have sex with each other. If doesn't matter how many hits the scanner tech could get if he's to busy with other pursuits to check.

[Kyoto Kid]

Common KK, you only need LOS to cast. After that they're your bitches! Course, my personal preference is to watch them, because otherwise I don't know what they are doing exactly and can't react appropriately. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

...you know I'm always looking for any angle to give mundanes a little more edge against magic. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Aaron]

My preference is to Mod Mood everyone into insatiable lust such that the guards stop guarding in order to have sex with each other. If doesn't matter how many hits the scanner tech could get if he's to busy with other pursuits to check.

This is why I like the custom spell called Nature's Call (or the area version, Half Time). It's got all the effectiveness of Orgasm, but it's far more subtle.

[nathanross]

If it was me, I'd just apply the rules for noticing spellcasting. If the tech on the scanner manages to come up with (6-Force) hits or better, she notices something odd in the readings.

Oh

good

grief.

Wow, I think this is about the worst Ive seen it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

My preference is to Mod Mood everyone into insatiable lust such that the guards stop guarding in order to have sex with each other. If doesn't matter how many hits the scanner tech could get if he's to busy with other pursuits to check.

WOW! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif) Reminds me of Orgasmo when the cops starts humping the bum. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/love.gif)

[Whitelaughter]

...you know I'm always looking for any angle to give mundanes a little more edge against magic. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Have the guards ordered to report in every 5 minutes and say "I'm being mind controlled". If they *are* being mind controlled, the mage will order them not to tell anyone; so a failure to report lets you know that there's a problem.

[KCKitsune]

I would think that if everyone was wearing a trode net, and the software had time to gather together a good set of data for each person then the brain activity caused by the spell would show up. Let's face it, without that background data on what is normal for each person, the software wouldn't know anything.

[DocTaotsu]

I think that the tech described for 2070 means that pulling a neural baseline on your security guards is a pretty trivial task. Heck the things we're doing with neuro imaging now is pretty creepy (and awesome, did I mention it was awesome?)

It's probably a pretty recent development (now that trodes work almost as well as datajacks) but I'd think it would be standard practice, probably part of a psych workup (not for their health but to see if they're secretly Aztlan operators).

But I also think it's a large matter of how you're using mind control. A spell like Nature's Call is probably pretty hard to detect whereas a full up mind control with the command "Place barrel in mouth, try to suck out the primer." would probably be more obvious.

If pulling out a profile was too hard they'd probably just teach the guards to do the mental equivalent of what Whitelaughter described. A simple mental gymnastic that isn't going to get done because the guard is too busy staring intently at the wall.

[Aaron]

Have the guards ordered to report in every 5 minutes and say "I'm being mind controlled". If they *are* being mind controlled, the mage will order them not to tell anyone; so a failure to report lets you know that there's a problem.

On that vein (and with a bit more decorum) would be a policy where all employees announced their actions before they did them, as with modern policy in Really High Security places.

[DocTaotsu]

Than they would roll dice against an abstract number that represents their skills an-

Wait a second.

Answered my own quesiton, I think. If you go into a room to view a secure document it would make sense you'd have to state "I'm opening the box" etc etc. Right?

[Dayhawk]

My plan was to have the guards of this facility being monitored.

One turn after they started acting "funny", the device monitoring them would get a check.

Device rating Vs. the Net hits of the mind control.

Since the person under mind control gets checks to break the control, I take this as their mind trying to get control back which can be read.

So for example:

Guard has a willpower of 3. Mage has 10 dice.

The guard gets 1 hit and the mage 3 hits.

The mage then orders the guard to let them in and sit down so he can be tied up. (My players are usually more creative then this, but im just making an example.)

The guard enters the passcode and the device now gets its check.

Device 5 vs 2 net hits.

If it gets 2 hits then any number of things could happen. But probably a silent alarm is set off.

If it fails to get 2 hits then its business as usual.

At least that was what I was thinking.

[Kyoto Kid]

Than they would roll dice against an abstract number that represents their skills an-

Wait a second.

Answered my own quesiton, I think. If you go into a room to view a secure document it would make sense you'd have to state "I'm opening the box" etc etc. Right?

...I am inserting the fuse in the bomb

I am turning the fuse until it locks

I am picking up the bomb

I am moving my left leg

I am moving my right leg...

--Algernon from Help! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Mr. Unpronouncea...]

Yeesh...the whole brain-scan thing is way too elaborate.

Just have a small, low-force ward set up somewhere (like an entryway) where the potentially mind-controlled person must pass through it on occasion.

He steps through and:
1) the spell fails (unlikely, but at that point he knows something's up and he calls for backup)
2) the ward pops (which the mage who built the ward immediately knows, and if even remotely worth the nuyen he charged to set it up, he phones in to the security line with the location of the ward that popped, security shows up, knowing there's an enemy mage on-hand)