Do Great Dragons and Immortal Elves really run the show?, Really? Options

[Cardul]

OK, having read most of the way through the Ghostwalker thread, and seeing that a couple people seem obsessed with the idea that everything, from your government to your local newspaper to your pet dog, Fluffy, is actually run and controlled by Great Dragons and Immortal Elves, that got me thinking...is it REALLY so?

Sure, we have the cases of 3 Great Dragons forming Amazonia, we have Lofwyr running one of the Triple A's, we have Ghostwalker sitting in power in Denver, and Masaru involved in the running of the Phillipines. Sure, we HAD an Immortal Elf on the Tir Taingire council of Princes(and he was deposed and replaced, while Lofwyr was replaced with a more progressive Great Dragon), and Tir nA nOg was founded by Immortal Elves. Sure there are some indications that an Immortal Elf CLAIMS to have taught the Great Ghost Dance.

Now, though..what is the situation?
The Immortal Elves were kicked out of power by a coup in Tir Taingire. And, while we have people saying that the current Queen of Tir nA nOg is an immortal Elf, as I understand it, she was born in the current Century, so how do we really know she is? Just because someone claims something does not mean it is so. Also, is the entire Ruling Council of Tir nA nOg Immortal Elves? Or does it consist f others? I remember that not all seemed to have heard of Aina in "Worlds Beyond"

For the Dragons, let's see..let's start with the first known one, shall we?
Ryumo, the Incarnate Kami at the Shrine of the Silver Dragon. The dragon who is handling the Fung Shui of several districts in Neo-tokyo, who is worshipped as a Living Kami by the Shinto Priesthood, and who rules the Yakuza of Neo-tokyo with an iron fist..well...except for the large group of Yakuza who broke away, and have been waging a sort of war between the two sides. OK..so he doesn't run the Yakuza anymore, and his Ally Spirit broke from under his control. So..he controls the Shinto Priesthood..right? Not really. He may be a living Kami, but he is JUST one Kami among countless, and teh Shinto Priesthood are going to try and make sure everything is balanced and harmonious. If he does something that goes against the Shinto idea of Balance, he will have the whole priesthood against him. Given that the Emperor respects the Shinto Priesthood(they and his wife are responsible for many of his reforms getting through, after all), he would likely give them the aid of the Japanese military if they requested it. Now, let us think about this: despite that Ryumo is a Great Dragon, he did not have ANY influence in the Japanese government to not do things like the Yomi Law. No..it was the Empress who convinced the Emperor to propose, and the Diet to approve the repeal f the Yomi Law. The perfectly HUMAN Empress. We know she is Human, because she did not go to Yomi the second she stepped off the Shiawase Extra-terratorial grounds. Seems to me Ryumo does not really control Japan.

Aden: Sure, he destroyed Tehran...but what has he done since? And, in his defense, Tehran DID declare war on him, first.

Lofwyr: He controls one of 10 Triple A megacorps. ONE among 10. Damien Knight is as powerful as a Great Dragon. Heck..the guy who runs Horizon is as powerful as a Great Dragon.(Now..sure, we know Aztechnology has a Great Dragon somewhere in its upper echelon). Lofwyr does NOT get to tell all the Triple A's what they can and cannot do.

Celedyr(?): You know..that Dragon on the Tir Taingire Council of Princes. I am sure, given his age, his voice commands great influence. But, I think the rest of the Council of Princes can STILL vote against him.

Dunkelzahn: Sure, he's dead, but his reach stil influences things. However, his "corp" is run entirely by humans and metahumans. Sure it operates at his bequest, and serves functions he wanted it to..but, those wishes are interpreted by human minds.

Ghostwalker: SURE, he runs Denver as his Feudal Domain. However, really, how much power does he REALLY have? Smugglers pay taxes to him, sure. The security forces are now under his authority, not various corps. But, really, what does he REALLY do? I got the impression that he mostly just sits there, looking menacing, and telling people to "Play nice, or else!"

[DocTaotsu]

I do deem you flame bait (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

My answer is: Kinda, maybe, depends if it would be FUN to run it one way or the other. As much as I love Shadowrun I hardly think it's Dostoevsky and not subject to modification. My take is that dragons are basically one being mega organizations that are subject to most of the rules all the other huge players are. I find this no less offensive than the idea that Damien Knight basically has a pet corporation to do his bidding.

I will also note that there are people that think "Loose Change" is a credible source for 9-11 information. And I'm sure that ICly there are plenty of people and organizations (Humanis! *cough cough*) that fully buy into and preach the whole "Dragons and Elves (exclusively) run the world".

[Fuchs]

The thing is, judging by how people explain how GW survived his take over, all your examples could be explained as the dragons actually running things through behind the scene plots and planning.

Using the reasons of "superhuman intellect and 10'000 years of experience and long, long planning and superiour magic", Ryumo could have influenced Japan's politics on every level. Who says he was not influencing the emperor's wife? Or wants people to think he doesn't influence japan and the shinto priesthood? Or that he left some clan break away for show?

Who says how far Lowfyr's reach goes? What corps he has his claws in?

Once you're entering the "Well, that Great Dragon is alive, so what he did was not a mistake, so there has to be a reason for it" territory, you can explain everything as you want it to be.

Saying "Lowfyr doesn't run Europe" is as logical as is saying "Lofwyr runs Europe " (after all, he did take control of the matrix during crash 2.0, so, what else has he in store?) or "GW had planning, tactics and magics ready for the 6th world even though he just had burst out of an astral prison hours before".

Now add how Dunkelzahn supposedly planned his death so far ahead that it caused all sorts of things to fall into place as he wanted it, and the whole argument of "Ryumo does not control Japan" looks rather weak.

In short: If all that people were saying about GDs and their powers was true, then there's no way anyone can "prove" they do not run the show on the planet, through multiple layers of plots and influence. It comes down to "if they are so powerful to do this, why wouldn't they be doing that as well?"

[FrankTrollman]

There are plotlines which are governed entirely by creatures which remember the 4th age, which is a very short list. If you want to engage with the Horrors plotline, for example, you have to get some eye witness testimony. And that means that everything you do involves working for an Elf, a Dragon, or a Spirit.

On the other hand, there are a lot of other advances in the world which are not affected in any meaningful way by dragons. Yeah Lofwyr is the Chief Executive Dragon of S-K. But Inti Jiwana is like number three or four on the AZT board. The people ahead of him are just really bad ass metahumans.

With the exception of Lofwyr, if an immortal wants to get their way most of the time they have to restrict themselves to small sandboxes - just like normal people do. Mugabe is the absolute ruler of Zimbabwe, but it's just Zimbabwe. Big countries and organizations have to accept compromise. Even when the big D was president of the UCAS he didn't control everything in the UCAS. The balance of power was still in the hands of congress ad corporate lobbies.

The places where immortals have unmitigated sway over what gets done tend to be out of the way shit holes. Tir na nOg is a tiny provincial postage stamp. It's interesting, but honestly the place sucks. If it sank beneath the waves Atlantis style the rest of the Sixth World would notice it because the resulting tidal wave would delay trans-Arctic shipping for a few weeks. The actual lost economy of the three million isolated people would be essentially meaningless. Recall that the entire Tir has less economic, social, and military clout than the city of Atlanta.

And even within the field that the Immortal Elves and Great Dragons play in, they aren't the only player, or even necessarily the best. Ares for example, hired Theresa Montgomery to run their medical operation and similar consultants to run their Eden Station for proactive planetary defense. They are happily horror hunting while simultaneously telling the Elves and dragons to go fuck themselves. So even in their narrow field of mastery their position is hardly unassailable.

-Frank

[Fuchs]

I agree with Frank's reasoning. Which is why I personally don't buy into all the hype about a Great Dragon's power, magic and experience being so much above everyone else.

[Cardul]

Well, you see my take: They don't. really control the world. They influence it, sure. Maybe their influence has greater impact because they think in very long terms. Ironicly, though, that long term thinking hurts them, as well. Humans think short term, and so will do things that those who think long term really don't think of. Look, for isntance, how fast technology has developed RL over the last century. Someone who thought long term would involve a slow creep of technology, while, because humans are not only short lived, but also get in ALOT of wars, technology developed rapidly to keep troops alive, defeat the latest terror machines(the Tank, chemical warfare, aircraft). The Dragons and the Immortal Elves do have an advantage in that they know magic the rest of the world doesn't know. however, the question becomes: How long until metahumanity, through its shadow conflicts, and more open conflicts, through the short lives of the metahumanity spurring them on to develop new things faster just to stay alive one more day in the Shadows, in Security, or in the Military, catch up to them? How far has magic come already in 6th World? Look, enchanting used to be a Metamagic, now it is just a regular magical skill. There were mentions in Street Magic of unique enchantments, not just the standard stuff of making Foci from previous editions. Honestly, I think that any power advantage the Dragons and Immortal Elves had is slowly fading away, just by the knowledge we are seeing spreading around and being rediscovered slowly. Imagine what will hapen when the first magician discoveres Spell Matrixes....

[DocTaotsu]

Hm, didn't think of it that way Trollman. GD and IE's do seem relegated to out of the way places and positions, areas where they can get away with growling and saying "Respect your elders". They're still powerful but like you said, not unassailable.

I for one will vote for any measure that includes sinking Tir Na Nog..

Damn elves.

[Bull]

No, for the most part, GDs and IEs do not run the show. It's for a number of reasons, but the biggest is basically because they have no interest. They have other concerns, other cares, and are basically off in their own little worlds playing games and politics 90% of the time.

Honestly, I think most people look at GD's the wrong way. In Shadowrun, Dragons are a Power, not an individual. They're just a Power confined to a single body (for the most part). Dragons play on the same field as corporations. Saying "I can kill a Ghost Walker" is the same as saying "I can kill Ares". And it can be done. It's just very, very difficult, and it's not going to be accomplished with a full frontal assault.

[Fuchs]

Well, you see my take: They don't. really control the world. They influence it, sure. Maybe their influence has greater impact because they think in very long terms. Ironicly, though, that long term thinking hurts them, as well. Humans think short term, and so will do things that those who think long term really don't think of. Look, for isntance, how fast technology has developed RL over the last century. Someone who thought long term would involve a slow creep of technology, while, because humans are not only short lived, but also get in ALOT of wars, technology developed rapidly to keep troops alive, defeat the latest terror machines(the Tank, chemical warfare, aircraft). The Dragons and the Immortal Elves do have an advantage in that they know magic the rest of the world doesn't know. however, the question becomes: How long until metahumanity, through its shadow conflicts, and more open conflicts, through the short lives of the metahumanity spurring them on to develop new things faster just to stay alive one more day in the Shadows, in Security, or in the Military, catch up to them? How far has magic come already in 6th World? Look, enchanting used to be a Metamagic, now it is just a regular magical skill. There were mentions in Street Magic of unique enchantments, not just the standard stuff of making Foci from previous editions. Honestly, I think that any power advantage the Dragons and Immortal Elves had is slowly fading away, just by the knowledge we are seeing spreading around and being rediscovered slowly. Imagine what will hapen when the first magician discoveres Spell Matrixes....

I fully agree with that. Lots of people however will and did not.

[Bull]

That said, time to put on the Mod Hat, since the original thread had been walking the line for a while, and stepped a bit over it this morning. This is a little preemptive strike since we're treading the same ground.

Once again, I'm going to remind you that different people see Shadowrun different ways. There are dozens of different gaming styles that get played in the SR world. You're free to discuss these differences, but do not, under any circumstance, insult someone because they play the game differently than you, or because they believe something differently than you.

Play nice, respect the opinions and beliefs of your fellow Dumpshockers, and be willing to walk away when you can't agree with someone.

[Fuchs]

No, for the most part, GDs and IEs do not run the show. It's for a number of reasons, but the biggest is basically because they have no interest. They have other concerns, other cares, and are basically off in their own little worlds playing games and politics 90% of the time.

Honestly, I think most people look at GD's the wrong way. In Shadowrun, Dragons are a Power, not an individual. They're just a Power confined to a single body (for the most part). Dragons play on the same field as corporations. Saying "I can kill a Ghost Walker" is the same as saying "I can kill Ares". And it can be done. It's just very, very difficult, and it's not going to be accomplished with a full frontal assault.

How does playing games and politics mean they are not running (or ruining) the world? Especially if each GD is a power on the level of Ares. What other than the world would they be playing with or for?

[Cardul]

I agree with Frank's reasoning. Which is why I personally don't buy into all the hype about a Great Dragon's power, magic and experience being so much above everyone else.

My take is not necessarily that the know MORE, just that they know DIFFERENT things. think of it like this: Dragons are the Cardassian Assasin on that one old Cardassian station. humans are Miles O'Brien. The dragons fight under one set of rules, they live by that set of rules. However, if you throw them something completely unexpected, like a bomb you cobbled together from a phaser power-cell and your communicator, they tend to find themselves out of their element. That is probably why the Dragons and the Immortal Elves generally end up in out of teh way places...those are their "comfort zones." Really, even those that DO end up in big areas(Ryumo, Daddy D, Lofwyr) seem to stick to niche areas. Face it, Dunkelzahn was pretty much just a media celebrity. Dunkelzahn was a dragon Ronald Reagan! Sure, Ryumo might have alot of influence, but really, where does it go through? the Yakuza and the Shinto Priesthood. Lofwyr, for all his corporate might...well, simply put, Lofwyr is JUST a corporate CEO. Sure, he has influence throughout europe because of the Matrix 2.0 and the strength of his company, but, ultimately, his motivations are teh same as any CEO: Strengthen his corp. Considering he and Damien Knight are about equal in terms of economic savy, I personally expect that the two are constantly playing an intricate chess game using corp assets(both open and deniable) as pieces.

[Critias]

GD's and IE's run nooks and corners and parts of the show, but not "the show." In one game the big super-monstrous villain could be Lofwyr himself, a game chock full of the supernatural intrigue of inhuman politicians. In another game, one running through virtually the same adventures, killing the same NPCs, targeting the same facilities and attacking them in the same manner...but the focus of the game could be the Saeder Krupp megacorporation, in a purely calculated business sense, rather than the immortal at it's helm.

It's weird, huh? It's almost like the devs sat and and set up a game world where if you want to focus on the machinations of Earthdawn-linked immortals and their super-magical rivals, you could do so, and if you wanted to ignore most of it except for the occasional headline and news broadcast, you could run a game that was never directly influenced by it (and focused instead of the comparatively mundane megacorporate side of things).

Huh. What a freaky accident, for things to have fallen together that way!

[DocTaotsu]

Indeed!

[Cardul]

How does playing games and politics mean they are not running (or ruining) the world? Especially if each GD is a power on the level of Ares. What other than the world would they be playing with or for?

I would be more inclined to say they are powers on a par with Double A's then on a par with Ares. The only reason why Lofwyr is on a par with Ares is that he is the CEO of a triple A, just like Damien Knight.

My own take has always beebn that the real powers are not Dragons, or Immortal Elves, or the Mega Corps, or even the governments. It is the people who have the will, the dedication, and the raw tenacity to stick to their dreams, no matter how many times they get nocked down. The only people with any real power will always be those who will strive against the odds to carve out there own place.

Who had the real power in the novel Aftershocks? The Corp that kicked the hospice out, or the hospice when it rebuilt ina new place? To me, it was the hospice.

[Fuchs]

But, Critias, there's this thing such as "internal consistency". If a Dragon is so far above humanity that it can pull off what GW did (read all the justifications people make up for his survival), then how can other dragons fare much poorer against other humans?

How can Lowfyr play chess with Damien knight and not wipe him from the board in a few moves if GW can do that to all of an entire city's leaders?

Why would GW be able to play Aztlan for a fool like this, and yet Aztechnology's own GD is of lower rank than others in th corp?

As I said, I don't see the world as run by GDs and IEs, but I also don't hype them to the level I saw in the other threads.

Or, to put it more bluntly: Why on earth is Lowfyr not controlling half the world, given his supposedly godly intellect, experience and magic, and the ressources of the biggest megacorp in existence in SR, if GW supposedly managed to take Denver from a number of nations using exactly such an intellect, magic and experience?

It simply does not add up.

[Grinder]

Or, to put it more bluntly: Why on earth is Lowfyr not controlling half the world, given his supposedly godly intellect, experience and magic, and the ressources of the biggest megacorp in existence in SR, if GW supposedly managed to take Denver from a number of nations using exactly such an intellect, magic and experience?

He doesn't want to. He's not in the mood.
Of course he rule half the world, ah fuck it, the entire world. And space. But he has become lazy in the last time. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

[Blodgett]

Do they? Yes.

But so does Damien Knight, Renraku, and the other megas. So to do the various countries.

How much do they control the world? As much as the other power players let them. (i.e. not much, too many players, too little power to share.)

[Kyoto Kid]

...actually it's a child like young woman from Croatia with a penchant for making things explode. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

The innocent looking ones, they're always the most dangerous. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[CircuitBoyBlue]

My always unpopular opinion is that it's perfectly reasonable to play the exact age of GDs and IEs with a fair amount of ambiguity. Just because some pointy eared Goebbels is telling you that the ruling council of Tir Na Nog has been alive since the 4th world doesn't mean he's telling the truth; we've seen regimes use false mysticism to legitimize their rule before. The big problem with me using ambiguity like that is that the GDs and IEs all seem to agree on what the 4th world was like, even the ones that hate each other. But hey, remember the movie Wag the Dog? When the CIA figured out the lie that the main characters were perpetrating, they didn't call them out on it, or try to disprove the lie. They just altered the course of the lie.

So if you want GDs and IEs ruling the world in your games, I guess there's ample evidence for that. But there's also evidence that the most powerful regime the IEs could form was Tir Tairngire, and look how that turned out. And GDs don't control a single major government, and only one out of ten megacorps (I think that's right, it's hard to keep track of how many megas are around anymore). Any argument that IEs and GDs are in control is going to have to rely on "behind the scenes" influence, which is ENTIRELY up to your individual campaign.

[mfb]

Or, to put it more bluntly: Why on earth is Lowfyr not controlling half the world, given his supposedly godly intellect, experience and magic, and the ressources of the biggest megacorp in existence in SR, if GW supposedly managed to take Denver from a number of nations using exactly such an intellect, magic and experience?

because intellect can't help you find a solution that doesn't exist, neither can experience, and magic can't reach far enough--and, over all of that, there are too many other players of roughly equal power to contend with.

GDs are really powerful. but they're not as powerful as you seem to think we think they are. it's like we're saying "this guy over here, he can jump really, really high", and you're saying "well if he can jump so high, why can't he just fly?"

[Kyrn]

I just have to nitpick here: Lofwyr is not just a GD who is the CEO of a mega. He owns the world's largest mega. No shareholder meetings, no proxy battles, no board of directors to control, he just owns the whole damn thing. In terms of actually exercising control this makes a huge amount of difference due to the way corporate administration works.
He's the wealthiest being on the planet. And he's a Great Dragon that has been shown deference by other GDs and is globally renowned as one deceptive and dangerous motherfucker. He's a scary dude. The fact that Damien Knight rolls on his level is merely further evidence that Knight's also a scary dude.

Eh, the dragons and elves have always been the most love it or hate it aspect of Shadowrun.

[ArkonC]

I love elves and dragons...
I hate infallible being...
I really didn't like the Tirs until I heard they bit the dust...
I love it when the infallible fail...

However, as to GD and IE controlling the world...
No one controls the world, because there are too many being (be they elves, humans, dragons, or even corporate entities) are trying to do just that...
I don't even think Lofwyrs control of his "own private little mega™" is as absolute as Kyrn makes it seem...
I believe Lofwyr makes it seem absolute, just as the elves want to make it seem like they control the world...

[Tobias]

Eh, the dragons and elves have always been the most love it or hate it aspect of Shadowrun.

Its Shadowrun Marmite.

Personally I think that they are big movers and shakers but so are quite a few other things... Plus everyone knows its the horrors that are in the background controlling everything getting ready for their return (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Malicant]

I don't even think Lofwyrs control of his "own private little mega™" is as absolute as Kyrn makes it seem...

It's good and comforting to think that not even Lofwyr has absolute control over a giant organization like Saeder Krupp. But In-Game sources tend to claim otherwise. He might not react to everything instantly, but he seems to be aware of everything going on and reacts in time in his own way.