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> The Cain challenge..., Because I seem to be a sucker...
ArkonC
post Feb 27 2008, 03:35 AM
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QUOTE (Cain @ Feb 27 2008, 12:40 AM) *
Get a maxed-out Quickness, and one maxed out combat skill. You're not only at the top of your game in one area, you'll be so close to the top of your game in so many others, it's pointless. If you're an adept, that can be pushed even further,


The challenge was issued in another thread...
So make this character who is at the top of his game...
Make the runner that has so few options for improvement is is pointless...

And just so you know:
QUOTE (Cain @ Feb 27 2008, 04:20 AM) *
I accept. Start another thread, and I'll prove it. As for Mr. Lucky, Pete seems to not realize that Mr. Lucky isn't the most broken character that can be made. Heck, he doesn't even count in the top 10. I use Mr. Lucky as an example of brokenness to be nice.


I'm curious to see what people (including myself) think of it... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
BTW: I actually loved Mr. Lucky, the only shadowrunner who can kill people by making things harder for himself...
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Cain
post Feb 27 2008, 03:50 AM
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The short answer is:

Create a character with a 9 in Quickness, and 7 in a firearms skill.

Buy the other firearms skills at 4.

Now, you have a character with a base 16 in whatever, and 13 in everything else.

We can then boost these things further with smartlinks, reflex recorders, and so on and so forth. But the net balance is that there'll be 3 dice difference between the skills. 3 dice = 1 success. That makes them so close, the difference is meaningless. There are so few options for improvement in his primary area-- not just primary skill, primary *area*-- that it's completely pointless.
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ArkonC
post Feb 27 2008, 03:56 AM
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Well, yes, he can shoot a rat at half a mile with any firearm, that, in my book, is not at the top of his game, unless he's just a contender in marksmanship contest and earns his money with those...
We are talking about shadowrunners...
and it is true that 1 success (on average) isn't that much, but it is a potential for 3 successes that makes the difference, IMHO...
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Jaid
post Feb 27 2008, 03:57 AM
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QUOTE (Cain @ Feb 26 2008, 10:50 PM) *
The short answer is:

Create a character with a 9 in Quickness, and 7 in a firearms skill.

Buy the other firearms skills at 4.

Now, you have a character with a base 16 in whatever, and 13 in everything else.

We can then boost these things further with smartlinks, reflex recorders, and so on and so forth. But the net balance is that there'll be 3 dice difference between the skills. 3 dice = 1 success. That makes them so close, the difference is meaningless. There are so few options for improvement in his primary area-- not just primary skill, primary *area*-- that it's completely pointless.

so... your area of specialty is just shooting stuff?

i'm not sure i consider that someone who's really at the top of their game. i mean, that's not really a complete skill set. for example, a street samurai should also be quite stealthy, probably the expert at disguise, demolitions, close combat, tactics/planning, etc. so sure, he can use guns really well, but this isn't really someone with no room for advancement.
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BlueMax
post Feb 27 2008, 04:23 AM
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If the stated goal is to be a Marksman, the character is already at the top of his game.

It would be impossible for anyone to pass judgment on the concept of a Shadowrunning marksman. After all, shadowrunning is something anyone can do. This character would be the best marksman of all the shadowrunners.

He could use his Karma to "round out".
And Frankly, with the agility of 9... it won't be hard to round out most of combat. Not hard at all.
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Jaid
post Feb 27 2008, 04:30 AM
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QUOTE (BlueMax @ Feb 26 2008, 11:23 PM) *
If the stated goal is to be a Marksman, the character is already at the top of his game.

It would be impossible for anyone to pass judgment on the concept of a Shadowrunning marksman. After all, shadowrunning is something anyone can do. This character would be the best marksman of all the shadowrunners.

He could use his Karma to "round out".
And Frankly, with the agility of 9... it won't be hard to round out most of combat. Not hard at all.

that's nice. how's he gonna get the gun to where it needs to be? he's gonna need palming, or disguise, or stealth/athletics, or magic, or hacking, or social skills, or *something* which is going to be just as much a part of the concept as shooting.
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ArkonC
post Feb 27 2008, 04:30 AM
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QUOTE (BlueMax @ Feb 27 2008, 05:23 AM) *
If the stated goal is to be a Marksman, the character is already at the top of his game.

It would be impossible for anyone to pass judgment on the concept of a Shadowrunning marksman. After all, shadowrunning is something anyone can do. This character would be the best marksman of all the shadowrunners.

He could use his Karma to "round out".
And Frankly, with the agility of 9... it won't be hard to round out most of combat. Not hard at all.


I don't know if you know this, but in-the-field marksmen need a lot more skills than just shootin' stuff...
Unless, as I said, you only do safe competitions where you shoot the bullseye for cash...
A dead gun fu master is still dead...

EDIT: Jaid we need to stop this... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Whipstitch
post Feb 27 2008, 04:31 AM
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Well, the thing is, Agility is linked to more skills than any other attribute and the majority of them can be defaulted. So having a 9 or so agility would in fact let you default to a dicepool of 8 for a ridiculous number of skills. On the other hand, a lot of those skills are somewhat redundant; once you can hit someone with a club it becomes a lot less important whether you can hit someone with a knife since you just drag along whatever you happen to be good at and do OK in most situations. As nice as it sounds, there's really only so many roles having a high agility opens up for you.
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ArkonC
post Feb 27 2008, 04:34 AM
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QUOTE (Whipstitch @ Feb 27 2008, 05:31 AM) *
Well, the thing is, Agility is linked to more skills than any other attribute and the majority of them can be defaulted. So having a 9 or so agility would in fact let you default to a dicepool of 8 for a ridiculous number of skills. On the other hand, a lot of those skills are somewhat redundant; once you can hit someone with a club it becomes a lot less important whether you can hit someone with a knife since you just drag along whatever you happen to be good at and do OK in most situations. As nice as it sounds, there's really only so many roles having a high agility opens up for you.


I completely agree...
But I wouldn't call someone who default on skills he needs for his job "at the top of his game" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Jaid
post Feb 27 2008, 04:41 AM
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QUOTE (Whipstitch @ Feb 26 2008, 11:31 PM) *
Well, the thing is, Agility is linked to more skills than any other attribute and the majority of them can be defaulted. So having a 9 or so agility would in fact let you default to a dicepool of 8 for a ridiculous number of skills. On the other hand, a lot of those skills are somewhat redundant; once you can hit someone with a club it becomes a lot less important whether you can hit someone with a knife since you just drag along whatever you happen to be good at and do OK in most situations. As nice as it sounds, there's really only so many roles having a high agility opens up for you.

no one is saying such a character would not be well-rounded, we're just saying that we don't consider just shooting stuff to be sufficient to define someone as being at the top of their game.

good enough for an olympic target shooter maybe, but we're not worried about that. we're worried about shadowrunners, who have to be good at an area of skills wider than just one highly limited field. he's not really "at the top of his game" until his entire skill set is there.

[edit] yes, we probably should ArkonC =P [/edit]
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Cain
post Feb 27 2008, 04:44 AM
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QUOTE (ArkonC @ Feb 26 2008, 08:34 PM) *
I completely agree...
But I wouldn't call someone who default on skills he needs for his job "at the top of his game" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

He wouldn't need to. He could have some of the other skills naturally, or on skillchip.
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BlueMax
post Feb 27 2008, 04:47 AM
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Cain,
Engage the challenge and make a full character and post it. I would like to see the full deal. If only for fun.

Others,
I don't want to be combative. Every character out there has holes. My interpretation of this challenge was to look for completion of one aspect. Poking at holes is easy. People could argue for days and days about ways to deal with the problem presented by every character's flaws.

Perhaps a more interesting challenge would be to see a starting character without a flaw.
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ArkonC
post Feb 27 2008, 04:47 AM
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I'd like to start this one with "there's no rush", but unless you show me a char straight out of bootcamp that has very little room for improvement I don't think I believe it's possible...
I know how to get a char at the top of his game, I just don't think 400 BP does it, unless you make the game really small...

QUOTE (BlueMax @ Feb 27 2008, 05:47 AM) *
Others,
I don't want to be combative. Every character out there has holes. My interpretation of this challenge was to look for completion of one aspect. Poking at holes is easy. People could argue for days and days about ways to deal with the problem presented by every characters flaws.


Ah, I think you defined one aspect (or the game) very small, I don't consider shootin' like a motherfucker being good in one aspect because the first combat you get in to you'll probably get your ass kicked by that sneaky wolverine wannabe cyberninja...
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Glyph
post Feb 27 2008, 05:20 AM
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Being complete at one aspect, to the point where further improvement is "pointless", is kind of subjective. Cain feels his example has reached that point, but other players might feel the other firearm skills need to be brought up to the same level.

I think I both agree and disagree with him. If I did such a character, I would probably be so secure in my firearms effectiveness that I would improve laterally at first - shoring up weak areas, gaining more skills, and so on. Getting more firearms ability would be pointless, in the sense that other improvements would have a priority. But I wouldn't consider that character the very best in the world at firearms. There would be room for improvement - specializing, getting the skills of 4 up to 6, reflex recorders, and so on. As the character started meeting tougher foes and other prime runners more often, an extra 3 dice would start to matter again.
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Cardul
post Feb 27 2008, 07:36 AM
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QUOTE (BlueMax @ Feb 27 2008, 12:47 AM) *
Cain,
Engage the challenge and make a full character and post it. I would like to see the full deal. If only for fun.

Others,
I don't want to be combative. Every character out there has holes. My interpretation of this challenge was to look for completion of one aspect. Poking at holes is easy. People could argue for days and days about ways to deal with the problem presented by every character's flaws.

Perhaps a more interesting challenge would be to see a starting character without a flaw.


I agree, BlueMax. The challenge, as I understood it, was the make a character at start where you would never need spend Karma to improve anything, attributes or skills. I personally feel that is impossible. I would like to see Cain's actual build of this perfect, non-houseruled(Meaning Reaction and Agility, not Quickness), and a complete totaling of how many BP are spent wear, so we can make sure he is not cheating to get his numbers.
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toturi
post Feb 27 2008, 08:52 AM
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We need Cain to specify what he means by one area. What is his area? One skill? A set of results, no matter the skill?
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samuelbeckett
post Feb 27 2008, 10:05 AM
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What Cain is proposing is not possible under RAW 400BP char gen, as either the availability cap or the prohibitive power point cost prevents any character from from maxing Agility (which Cain insists should still be called Quickness) at the beginning. The principal agility boosters are either limited to a 2 point boost or unavailable within a Availability 12 cap. In addition, the modified skill cap for any of the Firearms skills is also unachievable unless you are an Adept.

The best you can hope for is Muscle Replacement 2, Genetic Optimization (Agility) and Exceptional Attribute (Agility) to get a human to Agility 10 (still 2 short of their possible maximum, so room for growth there) and combine Reflex Recorders and Aptitude to get Pistols to 8 (also 2 short of their possible maximum, even in their best skill).

That combo will cost you 30BP out of your Qualities budget of 35BP and 13BP of your Resources budget.

You will also spend 85BP on Agility alone out of the 200BP Attributes budget (to get the rest of your Attributes to 2 is another 70BP, leaving only 40BP to shore up your other attributes - so you are either going to be slow or squishy or stupid - take your pick).

Finally you are looking at (even at the most cost effective and potentially munchkiny way of getting them) 40BP for Firearms group at 4, followed by an additional 16BP to get Pistols to 7 (8 with the Recorder) and 2BP more for a specialization. That is 58BP on skills so far.

So in total we have (assuming the full 200BP is spent on Attributes) used 301BP of our 400BP, and only have 5BP left for Qualities and 37BP left for Resources (or (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 185,000). Given we are going to need some sort of initiative booster (lets say Wired Reflexes 2, best bang for the nuyen) and Cybereyes with Smartlink (gotta shoot the best we can) that is another 7BP on Resources and we are pretty much out of Essence.

So our remaining 'well-rounded' skill set will have to be bought with our remaining 92BP, which admittedly is good for a few skills at 4 (Infiltration, Dodge, some Melee Combat skills incase we get stuck without a gun). Oh but wait, some more Edge might be useful (say increase it to 4, 20 more BP).

So we now have 72BP left for skills and remaining Resources - say Dodge 4 (16BP), Blades 4 (16BP), Infiltration 4 (16BP) and Athletics Skill Group at 2 (20BP). That leaves 4BP to spend other Resources (so (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 20,000 to buy armor, a gun etc and the ability to live on the street cause you can't afford any other lifestyle).

So we are left with the following character:

Gunbunny

Body - 3
Agility - 8 [10]
Reaction - 4 [6]
Strength - 2 [4]
Charisma - 2
Intuition - 3
Logic - 2
Willpower - 2
Edge - 4

Initiative - 7 [9, 3 passes]

Pistols (Semi-Automatics) - 7 [8] +2
A few other skills no more than 4 rating

Granted, a Pistol (Semi-Automatics) dice pool of 22 at Char Gen is pretty impressive, and an Infiltration dice pool of 14 will help get him into places to use that fantastic skill. But he only has a puny Body for damage resistance, and his Dodge dice pool is only 10 at the best of times. He is also not particularly quick on the draw.

To summarise, not only is he not at the top of his game in his primary specialization (he could increase his dice pool by a further 4 dice), but his secondary firearms skills are a minimum of 6 dice behind his pistol skill, and his remaining skills with the exception of the few Agility based ones are reasonable at best. In addition he can't avoid being hit very well and even with the best armor he can afford is likely to get squished easily. So he is certainly not 'unimprovable' by any standard Cain could set.

Feel free to critique/nitpick.
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It trolls!
post Feb 27 2008, 10:29 AM
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You forgot that he's also gonna need some contacts. Also that build doesn't even leave room for any social skills. With a charisma of 2 that means the character will be commandeered around by every enemy with a few dice on leadership.
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samuelbeckett
post Feb 27 2008, 10:37 AM
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QUOTE (It trolls! @ Feb 27 2008, 10:29 AM) *
You forgot that he's also gonna need some contacts. Also that build doesn't even leave room for any social skills. With a charisma of 2 that means the character will be commandeered around by every enemy with a few dice on leadership.


Yup, he better have a good face in the party to give him instructions and a good mage in the party to stop other people from melting his brain. Admittedly his lack of melee ability is not that much of a handicap as long as he has his pistol available and isn't subdued. As Herr Starr from Preacher put it when asked how he intended to learn how to fight unarmed if he refused to attend training: "I never intend to be unarmed".
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It trolls!
post Feb 27 2008, 10:45 AM
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Well you could try with a maxing out the negative qualities budget but that's not gonna make the character more playable.
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Cardul
post Feb 27 2008, 11:11 AM
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And, the FAQ says you should not break up skill groups in Chargen.

The simple fact is, though, that with an intuition of only 2, he will likely not catch the sniper in an urban ghille suit on a roof top overlooking his escape route, and, since he will be surprised, I do not believe he gets to defend against said sniper? He would also not be able to get very good on the Observe in Details checks when the high-threat response teams infiltrator circles arund behind the party. Basicly, yeah..such a character is TOAST trying to do a run without a strong team backing him up. SURE, he will hit and cap goons regularly, and maybe even sme prime runners, but....he would be the target right after the mage. And, I do not think an HTRT will be packing anything less then "stuff to kill runners DEADDEADDEAD", you know...EX-EX, APDS, poison gas..heck! Narcoject loaded with K10!
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samuelbeckett
post Feb 27 2008, 11:20 AM
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QUOTE (Cardul @ Feb 27 2008, 11:11 AM) *
And, the FAQ says you should not break up skill groups in Chargen.

The simple fact is, though, that with an intuition of only 2, he will likely not catch the sniper in an urban ghille suit on a roof top overlooking his escape route, and, since he will be surprised, I do not believe he gets to defend against said sniper? He would also not be able to get very good on the Observe in Details checks when the high-threat response teams infiltrator circles arund behind the party. Basicly, yeah..such a character is TOAST trying to do a run without a strong team backing him up. SURE, he will hit and cap goons regularly, and maybe even sme prime runners, but....he would be the target right after the mage. And, I do not think an HTRT will be packing anything less then "stuff to kill runners DEADDEADDEAD", you know...EX-EX, APDS, poison gas..heck! Narcoject loaded with K10!


I did say the Firearms skill aquisition for this character was a bit munchkiny... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

All doing it by the FAQ does is prove my point still further - the extra 8BP required mean he that his other Firearms group skills are now reduced to 3 rather than 4, or he has to lose some ratings from the limited other skills he has. Either way his is certainly not 'unable to improve'.

And the fact he has Intuition 3 still doesn't really impact any of the points you make above - he is dead meat for snipers or sneaky enemies, due to a lack of Perception skill.
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Ryu
post Feb 27 2008, 11:22 AM
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I think that going without aptitude and exceptional attribute is still fair for the discussion at hand. Not that the points saved will do much.

Else the whole discussion is moot because one can only ever reach the limit in one skill.


The specialist that does not need to improve is not the same as the specialist that can´t do it. The first I think is quite possible to build, even if it gets hard at 400 BP. There is also this ugly tendency of many GMs to simply adjust the challenge level until there is need for improvement again. You know who you are.
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samuelbeckett
post Feb 27 2008, 11:25 AM
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QUOTE (It trolls! @ Feb 27 2008, 10:45 AM) *
Well you could try with a maxing out the negative qualities budget but that's not gonna make the character more playable.


Yeah, we could get him some Addictions and Allergies and then get 5BP of Krav Maga/Ares Firefight Martial Arts to enable him to reduce the penalty for shooting while in melee - that could mean we drop the Blades skill and get Perception 4 instead, help with avoiding the sneaky snipers...the 30 points left over from Negative Qualities could be pumped into Social skills and Contacts. However, we have just provided a further set of weaknesses for the the GM to gimp the player with.

So poor social skills, poor resistance to magic, average avoidance and resistance to damage and is a total BTL head who can't go out in sunlight - sounds like a perfectly playable well rounded character... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Now I'm just waiting for someone to come along and propose an alternative build that actually is 'impossible to improve upon'.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)
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Fuchs
post Feb 27 2008, 11:31 AM
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QUOTE (Ryu @ Feb 27 2008, 12:22 PM) *
The specialist that does not need to improve is not the same as the specialist that can´t do it. The first I think is quite possible to build, even if it gets hard at 400 BP. There is also this ugly tendency of many GMs to simply adjust the challenge level until there is need for improvement again. You know who you are.


Ah, yes - the dreaded power creep. Once the runners reach double digit dice pools, suddenly, the average skill of security and cops and gangers goes up a notch too.
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