The Cain challenge..., Because I seem to be a sucker... Options

[Grinder]

I could also point out that most of the SR4 core mechanic was ripped wholesale from nWoD. According to the Rob Boyle podcast I listened to, it was done on purpose, at the suggestion of Steve Kenson.

Do you think that is a problem? SR1-3 suffered massivly from the separation of attributes and skill, so the step to go wth WOD-path and use dicepools based on attribute plus skill is only logical.

And the fact that WOD seems to be doing well with that system did help too, I'm sure. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Cain]

From this we can conclude that if only registered members post, dumpshock is significantly more active than SW forums, and is tus going to have about 5 times to the number of posts on any topic. You'd want numbers over time too, but there you go.

Not really. We only have 8 more active users. And, of course, WotC blows all of us out of the water. Anyway, as of right now, RPG.net has 169 active users and 313 guests by way of comparison, so apparently having more guests than active users is standard. So, while Pinnacle might be smaller than Dumpshock, it's not by a whole hell of a lot.

Do you think that is a problem? SR1-3 suffered massivly from the separation of attributes and skill, so the step to go wth WOD-path and use dicepools based on attribute plus skill is only logical.

And the fact that WOD seems to be doing well with that system did help too, I'm sure.

Once again: I am not allowed to comment on SR3-4 comparisons. What I can say is that ripping off another game is generally not a good idea, and it didn't seem to help Shadowrun's popularity any.

[Synner]

The last three are a matter of opinion. As for more unified mechanics and faster resolution, I can only say that in my personal experience, combat in Exalted is faster and more exciting than SR4. I don't have a lot of experience with nWoD, so I can't comment too much. However, I should point out (again!) that Rob Boyle has publically stated that SR4 was a direct steal from nWoD. I can also say that nWoD is easily five times as popular as SR4 is; and that's not including the similar White Wolf products, Scion and Exalted-- both of which are outselling SR4.

Just to put the record straight this is not what Rob said - as usual Cain is putting his spin on things. Rob said that there were bound to be inherent similarities between the two systems since they played off the same core mechanic (ie. Att+Skill dicepools + or - modifiers), and that both were influenced by oWoD which in turn was inspired by the original Shadowrun mechanics (which oWoD creators worked on). In fact, I find SR4bears more similarities to the original Trinity Universe games by WW (before they were D20ified), which didn't fare very well commercially in either incarnation (though I'm a big fan), but it's so much more granular and provides so many more structural alternatives in play (catering to SRs fanbase) that it's hard to compare beyond the core mechanic.

As for the rest of it. I've only one thing to say. Despite Cain's continuing claims regarding Shadowrun 4's lack of popularity the truth is that with the latest print run shipped to the stores, the Shadowrun 4 core rulebook has almost outsold SR3's entire 10-year run and will certainly have done so when it completes 3 years (and this when RPG sales are down across the board). And that is not factoring in pdf sales. The advanced rulebooks are moving well with Augmentation doing particularly well and location books are moving briskly. Demand has never been higher since FASA's heyday. More new players have picked up the game, and (quite telling) even more veterans who'd given up have returned to playing Shadowrun since SR4 than would have been possible with SR3. There are more SR gaming groups around that there have been in a long time and, more importantly, to us, they're having enjoying the game.

Is the SR4 system perfect? Hell, no. No system is.

Is it fatally flawed? No. And we're working on the kinks.

Is SR4 a simple system? No. We never claimed it was. We said it would be simpler and more streamlined than SR3. It is - rule by rule SR4 has less rules, there's a unified core mechanic, the rules themselves are simpler and more intuitive/easier to pick up, and the game flows better and caters to all character types more evenly.

Was SR4 intended to cater to the narrativist or the simulationist crowds? Neither. We don't really care for the distinctions so we'll leave it up to the pundits. Our ideal system has the built in flex to be played as loosely or as granular as each group wants (something that was impossible with SR3).

Will it be getting a significant overhaul anytime soon? Nope, we're happy with things as they stand and are looking forward to the next 10 years of Shadowrun gaming with SR4.

[Fortune]

Unlike the Savage Worlds and Dumpshock forums however, RPG.net is not associated with any one single game system.

[Cthulhudreams]

Yeah, manufacturers websites are much easier to get to grips with as they offer a dedicated look. Interestingly, dumpshock bucks the usual more guests than logged in members thing (which I agree is the trend) - currently it has 16 logged in members to 5 guests, which savage worlds official boards (including deadlands reloaded) running at 1 registered user to 36 guests.

Again, dumpshock has over 20 times the number of total posts too, but that is probably just longevity, but the abnormally high number of registered users to guests indicates that we have a more 'hard core' crowd around here.

[FrankTrollman]

Amazon is a really weirdly unreliable indicator of a game's popularity. But Deadlands (Savage World Edition) is ranked 86,160th in books, while SR4 is ranked 81,987th. This despite having been published a year earlier. Amazon also has 28 customer reviews for Shadowrun and only 4 for Deadlands. Both have consistently high reviews from their reviewers (unsurprising in an established niche game). Most tellingly of all, the most reviewed review of Deadlands was only rated as helpful five times. Meanwhile, there's a review on SR4 that was rated 38 times. More people rated the most critical review of SR4 as unhelpful than all reviews and ratings of reviews for Deadlands combined.

Does that tell us which game has more players? No it does not. But it does tell us that more people are buying Shadowrun 4 from Amazon three years after it was published than are buying Deadlands two years after it was published. It tells us that more Amazon subscribers are Shadowrun fans to the point that they would write a positive review on Amazon than are Deadlands fans who would write a positive review. The correlation isn't necessarily there, but it's quite indicative. Shadowrun is a niche game. Deadlands is a niche game. But Shadowrun is pretty obviously a much bigger and more prominent niche than Deadlands is, regardless of what your personal playgroup experience happens to be.

-Frank

[the_dunner]

it does tell us that more people are buying Shadowrun 4 from Amazon three years after it was published

Important note -- CGL doesn't distribute to Amazon. If folks are buying it there, they're buying it from Amazon Marketplace vendors.

[Cain]

Just to put the record straight this is not what Rob said - as usual Cain is putting his spin on things. Rob said that there were bound to be inherent similarities between the two systems since they played off the same core mechanic (ie. Att+Skill dicepools + or - modifiers), and that both were influenced by oWoD which in turn was inspired by the original Shadowrun mechanics (which oWoD creators worked on). In fact, I find SR4bears more similarities to the original Trinity Universe games by WW (before they were D20ified), which didn't fare very well commercially in either incarnation (though I'm a big fan), but it's so much more granular and provides so many more structural alternatives in play (catering to SRs fanbase) that it's hard to compare beyond the core mechanic.

I believe that This is the podcast in question. Basically, he said that the mechanic was proposed by Steve Kenson, full in the knowledge that it was similar to the nWoD/Exalted mechanic. You can listen for yourself.

As for the rest of it. I've only one thing to say. Despite Cain's continuing claims regarding Shadowrun 4's lack of popularity the truth is that with the latest print run shipped to the stores, the Shadowrun 4 core rulebook has almost outsold SR3's entire 10-year run and will certainly have done so when it completes 3 years (and this when RPG sales are down across the board). And that is not factoring in pdf sales. The advanced rulebooks are moving well with Augmentation doing particularly well and location books are moving briskly. Demand has never been higher since FASA's heyday. More new players have picked up the game, and (quite telling) even more veterans who'd given up have returned to playing Shadowrun since SR4 than would have been possible with SR3. There are more SR gaming groups around that there have been in a long time and, more importantly, to us, they're having enjoying the game.

Oh? Then post actual sales numbers for comparison. Steve Jackson games does.

Anyway, according to the post-release numbers from C&RG, then-Fanpro scored an impressive 3.66% market share; but this was similar to what it had earned prior to SR4's release. As far as I can tell, all game lines are selling more books than ever before, so what's happening isn't unique to Shadowrun.

As far as Deadlands goes, I should point out that it's essentially a splatbook for Savage Worlds. It's basically just a setting. Pirates of the Spanish Main (79,432) and Solomon Kane (64,717) are complete rulebooks, so those are a better comparison. Also, the Savage Worlds Explorer Edition is selling like hotcakes. It's ranked 35,870 on Amazon, and it's a complete full-color rulebook that sells for US $10. Beating SR4 in price by a wide margin, and delivering just as much content.

Is the SR4 system perfect? Hell, no. No system is.

Some more so than others.

Is SR4 a simple system? No. We never claimed it was. We said it would be simpler and more streamlined than SR3. It is - rule by rule SR4 has less rules, there's a unified core mechanic, the rules themselves are simpler and more intuitive/easier to pick up, and the game flows better and caters to all character types more evenly.

I am not allowed to comment on SR3-4 comparisons. So, let's just say you're wrong, and leave it at that.

Was SR4 intended to cater to the narrativist or the simulationist crowds? Neither. We don't really care for the distinctions so we'll leave it up to the pundits. Our ideal system has the built in flex to be played as loosely or as granular as each group wants (something that was impossible with SR3).

Which was done by trying to simultaneously imitate some of what the narrativist crowd already does, and a lot of what the simulationist crowd already does. I give you guys props for trying, but you can't tack a few narrativist details onto a hard-core simulationist system, and expect that you'll end up with the middle road. You end up swinging from one extreme to another.

You may be satisfied with what Shadowrun has become. But fans like mfb and myself are ensnared by the vision of what Shadowrun could be. There's a lot of things in SR4 that were done right, but a hell of a lot more that can be improved substantially. We *can* have the perfect game, and Shadowrun could be it. SR4 is just a lot of mixed messages, mostly in the wrong direction.

[Jhaiisiin]

I am not allowed to comment on SR3-4 comparisons. So, let's just say you're wrong, and leave it at that.

Why? You can't just say "You're wrong!" and expect everyone to believe you or even listen without the slightest justification.

And I'm a little confused about this restriction on you that you're not *allowed* to make SR3-4 comparisons. That makes it sound like someone's basically slapped you with a censor. For good or bad, that's wrong, and you *should* be able to voice your opinions, whether or not people agree with them.

That said, Cain, we all realize you hate SR4. We get it. You *could* stop trying to tear it down at every turn. Not trying to censor you, just saying you don't need to repeat the same info nearly every time you post on the SR4 system, that's all.

[FrankTrollman]

Basically, he said that the mechanic was proposed by Steve Kenson, full in the knowledge that it was similar to the nWoD/Exalted mechanic. You can listen for yourself.

Your supplied link doesn't seem to actually include the interview, merely a statement that they have the interview. maybe you have to be a logged-in member? Regardless, even assuming that it says what you say it says, that's anachronistic. New World of Darkness hit the shelves in August of 2004. SR4 hit the shelves a year later. But it took longer than a year to write. so it actually can't have been lifted wholesale from nWoD, because nWoD didn't exist when they were writing the thing.

-frank

[Jaid]

Why? You can't just say "You're wrong!" and expect everyone to believe you or even listen without the slightest justification.

And I'm a little confused about this restriction on you that you're not *allowed* to make SR3-4 comparisons. That makes it sound like someone's basically slapped you with a censor. For good or bad, that's wrong, and you *should* be able to voice your opinions, whether or not people agree with them.

That said, Cain, we all realize you hate SR4. We get it. You *could* stop trying to tear it down at every turn. Not trying to censor you, just saying you don't need to repeat the same info nearly every time you post on the SR4 system, that's all.

essentially, every time an SR3 vs. SR4 thread starts in any way, shape, or form, it devolves into a flamewar. as such, the mods/admins/whoever have decreed that it's no longer allowed to get into those discussions.

[edit] just realised i went and compared SR3 to SR4 there =S

so yeah, short version: i tend to disagree with what Cain said. but i'm not particularly interested in discussing it with him anyways, so whatever (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) [/edit]

This post has been edited by Jaid: Mar 9 2008, 04:58 PM

[Cain]

Your supplied link doesn't seem to actually include the interview, merely a statement that they have the interview. maybe you have to be a logged-in member? Regardless, even assuming that it says what you say it says, that's anachronistic. New World of Darkness hit the shelves in August of 2004. SR4 hit the shelves a year later. But it took longer than a year to write. so it actually can't have been lifted wholesale from nWoD, because nWoD didn't exist when they were writing the thing.

-frank

Prerelease info on nWoD was available long before release, just like we all knew what the SR4 mechanic was going to be before release. Besides which, IIRC Exalted was out and in full swing long before that, and it's essentially the same mechanic. Precursor games, which had a very similar mechanic, include Aberrant and Trinity; IIRC, Aberrant came out in 1997. So much for originality.

That said, Cain, we all realize you hate SR4. We get it. You *could* stop trying to tear it down at every turn. Not trying to censor you, just saying you don't need to repeat the same info nearly every time you post on the SR4 system, that's all.

I don't hate SR4. I strongly dislike the implementation of SR4. See my post above.

[nathanross]

Is there seriously an issue with SR3/4 comparisons? That is bullshit. I see no reason why Cain cant have and voice his completely wrong opinion, and so far I have seen no really flames. Once people start insulting other peoples family, etc. then there may be an issue. Having a strong opinion should not be punished. Shiting on other peoples threads is an issue, but that is exactly why we have this thread.

Now to join in:
Cain, why is SR4 being outsold by Exalted and D&D such an issue? Do you seriously wish us to believe that a systems characteristics are completely represented by the number of copies sold? Aren't you forgetting that it may not be the system, but the concept that attracts people?

Shadowrun is a much more mature RPG than most. Exalted grabs the anime crowd, D&D the nerds, and WoD the emos. I seriously do not want SR to be an RPG that attracts those kinds of people. I never expect SR to the #1 RPG. The changes needed for it to be that would so bastardize it that I would no longer want to play it. I think the fact that it is completely outselling SR3 is the most telling statistic. There is no point comparing it to other RPGs, because it is usually not the system that determines interest in the game. The system just keeps people playing it long after the newness has worn off.

[mfb]

Is there seriously an issue with SR3/4 comparisons? That is bullshit. I see no reason why Cain cant have and voice his completely wrong opinion, and so far I have seen no really flames.

it's calmed down quite a bit. for a while there, certain individuals--i won't name any names, but it was mfb--would use pretty much any excuse to discuss why SR4 sucked in comparison to SR3.

[Cain]

Cain, why is SR4 being outsold by Exalted and D&D such an issue? Do you seriously wish us to believe that a systems characteristics are completely represented by the number of copies sold? Aren't you forgetting that it may not be the system, but the concept that attracts people?

That's in rebuttal to Synner. He claims that the whole point of SR4 was to make it more popular. In that regard, it can be seen to have comparably failed: SR4 has no more market share than before.

Shadowrun is a much more mature RPG than most. Exalted grabs the anime crowd, D&D the nerds, and WoD the emos. I seriously do not want SR to be an RPG that attracts those kinds of people. I never expect SR to the #1 RPG. The changes needed for it to be that would so bastardize it that I would no longer want to play it. I think the fact that it is completely outselling SR3 is the most telling statistic. There is no point comparing it to other RPGs, because it is usually not the system that determines interest in the game. The system just keeps people playing it long after the newness has worn off.

That was inflammatory. There are many people who play both Shadowrun and nWoD, D&D, and so on and so forth. Are you calling Frank Trollman emo? I wouldn't go that far in insulting him, why are you? And the market share argument shows that the proportional sales aren't that great. Besides which, there are many people who think SR4 is for people who like shooting and looting and power gaming. You want to toss insults, be prepared for them to be tossed in your face.

Basically, by not comparing it to other RPG's, the game stagnates and take totally wrong directions. Here on Dumpshock, you can be sure that everyone is a Shadowrun fan; but if you built a game to cater strictly to the Dumpshock crowd, it'd die a horrid painful death. Shadowrun is not the perfect game, but it could be it. If it evolves in the right direction, that is.

[mfb]

i was trying to think of a nice way of telling nathanross exactly where to stick it, with regards to that particular paragraph, but Cain seems to have done it for me.

[Jhaiisiin]

For the first time, I'm in complete agreement with Cain on something. Those broad, grossly innacurate generalizations about the types of players attracted to the varied games was not only complete crap, but was rather insulting. I play oWoD, SR, D&D, Star Wars and when I'm feeling giddy, Paranoia XP. Does that make me emo, a nerd or whatever? No. It means I enjoy getting away from reality. Anyone who thinks WoD is strictly for emos is completely out of touch with reality. DnD isn't only for nerds. SR isn't only for powergaming psychopaths.

Damnit. I agreed with Cain. Now its' gonna snow in New Mexico again. heheheh

[Seven-7]

While it was insulting, at least on the MU* (specifically MUSH) side of things, this part is veeeery true:

WoD the emos

Come on. Everyone was thinking it.



Also: There are a lot of cyberpunk genre fans outside of DS that think SR is really really really really crap. Mostly for it's theme and multi-race aspects, but yeah.

[Cain]

Come on. Everyone was thinking it.

No. We weren't. Like I said, Frank Trollman plays nWoD. And while I could fairly call him any number of choice names, emo isn't one of them.

Also: There are a lot of cyberpunk genre fans outside of DS that think SR is really really really really crap. Mostly for it's theme and multi-race aspects, but yeah.

Which is rather the point. Shadowrun mostly appeals to Shadowrun fans, while games like World of Darkness and D&D have a broad appeal to many gamers.

[Seven-7]

This is what we call satire.

Did you also really need to quote /quote right below my post?

[Larme]

Congratulations on your post becoming a petty slap fight Cain! After 12 pages though, what would we expect? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

For sanity's sake, I'd like to see people stop responding to this thread unless they have something substantive to say. Arguing about who said what and what they meant is like... yeah. Aren't most of us too old for this?

Just a friendly suggestion (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Jhaiisiin]

How dare you suggest maturity here you little so-and-so!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[knasser]

I have something to add, though I've been away for a couple of days.

This thread was begun because Cain made a boast about how broken the SR4 rules were in a particular way (scope for character advancement). I'll repost it here:

Get a maxed-out Quickness, and one maxed out combat skill. You're not only at the top of your game in one area, you'll be so close to the top of your game in so many others, it's pointless. If you're an adept, that can be pushed even further

It's a statement that is very critical of the SR4 system and it is merely the latest in a long series of such criticisms.

Now Cain has posted a build that he has admitted doesn't meet that boast. He also posted someone else's build which he admits does not meet that boast. He has stated that he requires a couple of days to create a build that does meet such a boast. Over the past two weeks we have seen endless efforts on Cain's part to divert this thread into other arguments, to rephrase his boast and to delay posting of such a build.

I would now like to see Cain say that he was wrong. He made a criticism of the system which he couldn't support, has dragged us through twelve pages of argument on the subject and still not withdrawn his statement. The fact that he pleads it takes a couple of days to build a character is not, as he casts it, an indictment of the SR4 character creation process as it takes most of us a couple of hours at most to create a fully fleshed out character. Much less for a quick, non-optimised build. Which says to me that if he's so unfamiliar with the chargen process as to require a couple of days for this, then he's in no position to be making judgements on the chargen rules in the first place.

Cain - you made a very strong criticism of people's work in producing the SR4 rules. You are clearly, obviously and pitifully unable to substantiate that criticism and I would like to see you show some decency and admit that you were wrong.

As to the frequent instances of you saying or strongly implying that SR4 rules are inferior to SR3 immediately followed by stating that you're banned from comparing the rules, that is both disingenuous in pretending that you aren't comparing the rules in the first place and it is also a clear attempt to try and pass off a criticism that cannot be challenged - a sort of appeal to secret knowledge or a demand that we simply trust your judgement. Given your unending diatribes against the SR4 rules, we can hardly extend that trust to you.

You continue to play underhand tricks, such as slipping in references to how you can one-shot a citymaster with a knife when we had an entire thread (linked to by myself earlier) in which the example was thoroughly taken apart and you are fully aware that the example didn't stand up to an actual reading of the rules.

Thread after thread has gone down in flames because of you Cain, and your relentless posting of factually incorrect statements that you refuse to substantiate, only rephrasing them or changing the subject again and again and again with only one thing consistent - an attempt to show that the SR4 rules are "horribly, badly broken."

We all play Shadowun, Cain. We all know how the rules play out. Your weird efforts to convince us that the reality is different to what we actually see only result in irritation, anger and wasted time as we try to deal with the strange figure amongst us with his hands over his ears, his eyes screwed shut, shouting "broken, broken, broken" at every opportunity.

I don't understand your agenda, Cain. Time and again, your arguments have been shown to be factually incorrect. Time and again, you've found that everyone else is unconvinced by them. Still, we have this erupt in thread after thread fuelled only by your unending criticisms and people's unwillingness to let them stand unchallenged for the sake of those not familiar with them that might swallow them whole. But ultimately one of those two forces has to give. And if you don't stop this endless, unsupportable criticisms on your part, then the only that will remain is for people to quite simply stop arguing and just ignore your posts. Perhaps that is your goal - that you should be able to post your criticisms unchallenged - a victory by sheer fanaticism. But if so, it wont meet your presumed aim of persuading newcomers of made up flaws in the SR4 system. It will just end up with dismissive "ignore the troll" comments and a link back to these threads if you're lucky.

So please, just admit that you can't make good on your boast and stop this for once and for all, before everyone gets sick and tired not just of these arguments, but of you.

Thank you,

-Khadim.

[Blade]

Problem is, I think that Cain doesn't think he's wrong.

According to him, a character with one maxed-out skill is at the top of his area (and even if he could spend karma and/or nuyen to improve, this would be meaningless) and a character with maxed-out edge (and the maxed-out attribute linked to his skill, which needs to be the inexistent Quickness attribute) is well-rounded and doesn't need to get better at anything but his maxed-out skill.

[Dashifen]

Emo or otherwise, quit with the name calling.