The Cain challenge..., Because I seem to be a sucker... Options

[ICPick]

As with all rating 8 Edge characters, his effectiveness will vary depending on the GM and how and when he decides to refresh Edge pools.
Other than that he's ok, definitely playable but nothing exceptional.

I believe with that firearms skill he would crit success alot, and if memory serves RAW would/could mean he would get an edge back, right?


*edit* But then again, as I write this, since there really isn't much of a way to crit success with a firearms skill (no set threshold) is there......
Carry on... nothing to see here.

[Teulisch]

lets see... start with an elf, get em an agility cap of 8. add a custom cyberlimb with agility 8(12) and a cybertorso. reflex recorder, smartlink, and then get your skill to 7(+2). now you have stat 12, skill 7+2+1, with +2 smartlinked, for 24 dice of shooting. you can do it at chargen. lets assume we maxed out automatics, and are using arm strength 6 (1 pt recoil compensation) and the other bits to reduce recoil (no book in front of me atm and i forget the name of it)

24 dice is a lot. now, its only 22 outside of specilization, but being able to default to 11 dice for agility with that arm is usefull. maybe get 2 cyberarms maxed with ambidex, and have an SMG in each hand. dice pool splits to 11, which is plenty ugly to begin with(no smartlink).

heck, you can get even higher agility and thus dicepool, if you decide that cyberlimb attributes can exceed the augmented cap.

[Daier Mune]

don't forget to Optimize your cyberarm(s) for shooting firearms.

[ArkonC]

Also, a character *requiring* skillsofts right out the gate is not a character that has no room for improvement. After all, if there was no room for improvement, they wouldn't need skillsofts, now would they?

Very true, but it is also true that a lvl 3 or 2 or even lvl 1 skillwire can make up for any skill based shortcomings...

Also, keep in mind that it's a bit ironic for Mr. Lucky to have skillwires:


So, if Mr. Lucky is depending upon his Perception skillsoft or his Pilot skillsoft, then he's not going to be able to use his central theme of Edge dice. That's also the reason to have a "token" point in a skill for this character theme.

The Skillwire Expert System partly makes up for this, but you could just swith off the skillwire and go Edge completely...

lets see... start with an elf, get em an agility cap of 8. add a custom cyberlimb with agility 8(12) and a cybertorso. reflex recorder, smartlink, and then get your skill to 7(+2). now you have stat 12, skill 7+2+1, with +2 smartlinked, for 24 dice of shooting. you can do it at chargen. lets assume we maxed out automatics, and are using arm strength 6 (1 pt recoil compensation) and the other bits to reduce recoil (no book in front of me atm and i forget the name of it)

24 dice is a lot. now, its only 22 outside of specilization, but being able to default to 11 dice for agility with that arm is usefull. maybe get 2 cyberarms maxed with ambidex, and have an SMG in each hand. dice pool splits to 11, which is plenty ugly to begin with(no smartlink).

heck, you can get even higher agility and thus dicepool, if you decide that cyberlimb attributes can exceed the augmented cap.

Yes, but we've already covered that, I (and some others) believe that just being able to shoot every firearm like Rambo on Speed doesn't make you on top of your game, for a combat character, surviving combat is just as important as being able to dish it out...

I also tried to make an answer to this challenge and it is possible to create a char that has very little room for improvement in his chosen field, but this would be a face, max charisma, get the skill group on 4, intimidate on 6, tailored pheromones, the whole nine yards, and still have a good amount of BPs left over...
Of course, then I figured I could improve him by making him an adept, but as Cain pointed out (in the other thread I think) the only ones that can keep improving are adepts and mages (and probably TMs)...

[knasser]

Shadowrun is at its heart, a realistic game. And the truth is that there is a limit to how accurate someone can get with a gun (when error due randomness of wind, target movement, etc. exceeds the error margin of user targetting); to how persuasive they can be to others they've just met (people's personality cannot suddenly be rewritten); how knowledgeable you can be about software (when there's nothing left to read). And so Shadowrun contains these limits.

And just as the existence of limits is realistic, the ability to start of near them is realistic. Is it wrong for me to say I want to create a thirty-year old character who has spent most of his adult career as an army sniper and is enthusiastic about being the best at his job? And if it isn't wrong to create a character background like that then isn't it realistic for such a character to maybe be very close to as good as they can get? After all, their ability is probably going to diminish thereafter. Particularly in areas of physical fitness. And so Shadowrun allows you to create characters near these limits because to forbid it means forcing everyone to create inexperienced adolescents or hum-drum adults for our characters.

Shadowrun's aim of realism demands reachable limits and not imposing draconian restrictions on character background demands that they should be near reachable at chargen.

If you want a game where the satisfaction is derived ever-increasing character power then you're going to have to play D&D or similar. The approach D&D uses works for D&D because it is acceptable to have level 20 fighters walking around with all their vast superiority over level 1 fighters. But the result of that is challenges are first of all based around character power rather than strategy and tactics. This is what we want from D&D, but you couldn't introduce ever-climbing character power in your PC's speciality area in Shadowun without producing a similar environment to D&D - one in which your "level 8" PCs come up against "level 8" opposition and the "level 1" guards are ignored. That's not what we want from Shadowrun. We want a game where you definitely don't want a "level 1" security guard coming upon you from behind with a SMG. And that's what we get.

For the record, I don't consider the original boast of being able to produce a character that needs no advancement to be anywhere close to met by the Mr. Lucky build, but I wanted to say the above in the context of hitting your limit in a specialist area. It's not a problem - it's necessary in order that Shadowrun should have the feel that it does.

My 0.02 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

-Khadim.

[Cain]

We're getting off the track of the original challenge, which was to create a character who was so good in his chosen areas, and so well-rounded elsewhere, there was little need for karmic advancement. I think Mr. Lucky as written fits that bill. We could also include a Pornomancer, who has every social skill at something like 20 dice minimum. Neither one of them really have any room to grow in their chosen fields.

As for adding other skills: sure, you can always add that Underwater Basket Weaving skill, but what's the point? If it doesn't add anything to the character concept, as opposed to the character abilities, then it's not really character growth, is it? It's just adding things for numerical advantage. I'm a big proponent of Hobby skills, and I'd rather see Mr. Lucky increase his Sports/Rodeos skill than add a technical skill against character type.

[ArkonC]

Mr. Lucky isn't on top of his game, IMHO, since he depends too much on how often Edge refreshes...
Also, he could improve his Agility and Reaction, but as you pointed out before this only makjes a 1 or 2 die difference...
He would also benefit from raising his gymnastics and UC...
But it is true that he benifits a lot more from money gain than karmic gain...
Which can be said about most mundane characters...
The pornomancer is, however, on top of his game, he's even quite beyond the game...
But you (Cain that is) yourself said adepts and mages can keep improving...
Anyway, Mr. lucky does prove that his shtick only benefits from 50 karma or so (very rough estimate)...
If his shtick is combat with pistol and fist...

[Jhaiisiin]

So how would you classify "chosen field?"

For the Pornomancer, it's obviously him doing pornos, and everything related. Yippee.

For a Street Samurai Shadowrunner, it's Shadowrunning, and that means needing appropriate skills. Combat, stealth, perception, dodge, fast talk, that sort of thing. I'm not sure your Mr. Lucky meets the requirements of your challenge, Cain.

[Fortune]

I just have to say that specializing Gymnastics in Dodging is too cheesy even for me!

[ArkonC]

So how would you classify "chosen field?"

For the Pornomancer, it's obviously him doing pornos, and everything related. Yippee.

For a Street Samurai Shadowrunner, it's Shadowrunning, and that means needing appropriate skills. Combat, stealth, perception, dodge, fast talk, that sort of thing. I'm not sure your Mr. Lucky meets the requirements of your challenge, Cain.

Well, I'd say a pornomancers field is social, and he can (literaly) talk his way into and out of anything...
So Charisma, Influence and Intimidation...
For a sammy, it would be combat...
So Strength, Agility, Reaction, Body, Ranged combat skill(s), Close combat skill(s) and Dodge (or gymnastics)...

[Jhaiisiin]

So where does that leave "Mr. Lucky"?

[ArkonC]

So where does that leave "Mr. Lucky"?

Needing Karma and (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) ... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

EDIT: And a lot mote than my original estimate, I was using another game system for advancement...
That's what happens when you dont pay attention...
But let's see...
Body: 5 (is enough, better to boost with ware, but this means upgrading some existing ware)
Quickness: 5 (7) (Buy up to 6 - it's his shtick - 18 Karma)
Reaction: 4 (6) (Buy up to 6 - 33 Karma; Would also benefit from upgraded wired reflexes, costly, but again, not in Karma)
Strength: 2 (4) (Same as with body)

Skills
Pistols (Semi auto) 7
Gymnastics (Dodging) 2 (Buy up to 6 - 36 Karma)
Unarmed combat (martial arts) 2 (Buy up to 6 - 36 Karma)
Con (Fast talk) 1
infiltration (Urban) 2

So 123 Karma in total (and tons of (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) , to get on top of his (combat) game...

[Naysayer]

I have to say, after all the reoccuring hullabaloo about t3h Mr. Lucky, this build leaves me seriously underwhelmed... Quite like Moon-Hawk, I don't see him as hideously underpowered and unplayable, but he hardly is the monster he was made out to be.
As an answer to the challenge of presenting a character that is so "on top of his game" that there is "no room for improvement" however, this build borders on being off-topic. There are so many avenues underdeveloped or completely unexplored with this character, it's not even funny.
Even if his "game" should only be shooting people in the face with pistols, there are whole battaillons of gunbunnies that enter the game and outperform him straight out of the box. I mean, he shoots pretty well, with pistols, and Cain is probably right in saying that Mr. Lucky might have little incentive to improve his skill in shooting with pistols, but there is still room.
Apart from that, though, what is it that this char has going for him? His 8 Edge? Whoopee! In every moderately realistic game, he should be burning Edge left and right just to cover up the glaring obvious holes in his skillset. There is so much more missing than his level 3 skillwire - which, mind you, can only supprot up to 2 x rating in skillpoints at any given time - can cover up. AND his mental stats are a mess, he would be walked all over by everyody with one or two points in either a) any social skill, b) any infiltration skill, c) magic.
His ressources are few to begin with, and they are spread too thin, with the only thing to keep him alive his - quickly depleted - gimmick.
Now, Cain, don't get me wrong, if you enjoy playing that character, if he works in your game, then more power to you, I am just saying that, in any game I ever been in, both as GM or player, Mr. Lucky would not waltz all over the place, he'd sweat and cry like everybody else, maybe even a little more than some others. And he'd cherish every little karma point he could get his little hands on.

[edit: Or, to cut it short: What ArkonC said]
[edit2: Before he edited his post... you know, only the one-liner...]

[Jhaiisiin]

Also, and I keep meaning to post this... What takes you so long to build characters, Cain? 2-4 days can't possibly be accurate. It takes me less than an hour, and that's even with being picky and using PDF's instead of books.

[mfb]

Shadowrun is at its heart, a realistic game. And the truth is that there is a limit to how accurate someone can get with a gun...

that argument would be a bit more compelling if SR4's firearm mechanics bore even the remotest resemblance to reality.

[knasser]

that argument would be a bit more compelling if SR4's firearm mechanics bore even the remotest resemblance to reality.

You point the gun at someone and pull the trigger and if you're accurate they get shot. If you're more accurate, the bullet is more accurately placed and the target suffers greater injury. That's reflected in the rules. Some weapons fire more damaging or penetrating ammunition and both of these are also reflected in the rules. I know little about fatality statistics for gunfire, but I get the impression that gunshots are often not fatal but easily can be. That's the sort of result you see with SR4 rules again. And you can spray bullets around an area with automatic weapons or try and keep shooting at a single target with multiple bullets. Again - covered. What's outside the bounds of "remotest resemblance to reality" ?

[Jaid]

that argument would be a bit more compelling if SR4's firearm mechanics bore even the remotest resemblance to reality.

interestingly enough, DSF gun discussions actually make me want to take cover... =P

*hides*

[ArkonC]

that argument would be a bit more compelling if SR4's firearm mechanics bore even the remotest resemblance to reality.

You point the gun at someone and pull the trigger and if you're accurate they get shot. If you're more accurate, the bullet is more accurately placed and the target suffers greater injury. That's reflected in the rules. Some weapons fire more damaging or penetrating ammunition and both of these are also reflected in the rules. I know little about fatality statistics for gunfire, but I get the impression that gunshots are often not fatal but easily can be. That's the sort of result you see with SR4 rules again. And you can spray bullets around an area with automatic weapons or try and keep shooting at a single target with multiple bullets. Again - covered. What's outside the bounds of "remotest resemblance to reality" ?

Or maybe we could not start arguing the realism of trying to capture reality in dice rolls here...
If you want to discuss this, you should make a thread...

[mfb]

forgive my hyperbole, but d20 gets most of that right too. in terms of accuracy and its limits, SR4 fails pretty much universally--range, visibility, burst/autofire, and the like are so wildly misrepresented that it's largely useless to discuss the practical limits of accuracy. yes, there are practical limits to accuracy, but when an unaugmented, non-maxed shooter can reliably hit a target a klick away in complete darkness without stopping to aim, i think it's fair to say that those practical limits are not and cannot be part of the game. there can still be limits, of course, but those limits have nothing to do with what the realistic limits actually are.

edit: ArkonC is correct, this isn't the thread for this particular discussion. if anybody wants to have it, i'll gladly join another thread, but i've made my point here and i don't want to derail the other discussion.

[Cain]

So how would you classify "chosen field?"

For the Pornomancer, it's obviously him doing pornos, and everything related. Yippee.

For a Street Samurai Shadowrunner, it's Shadowrunning, and that means needing appropriate skills.

Which, if the character is built at all accurately, he will already have. Being a pure street sam means you're not a ninja/rigger/decker/mage combo. It means you're good at combat, and there are many builds out there that are effectively maxed at combat. The Pornomancer is the uber-face with some shadowrunning skills; and come on now, there's not much more you can do to improve his social abilities in any meaningful sense.

Now, Cain, don't get me wrong, if you enjoy playing that character, if he works in your game, then more power to you, I am just saying that, in any game I ever been in, both as GM or player, Mr. Lucky would not waltz all over the place, he'd sweat and cry like everybody else, maybe even a little more than some others. And he'd cherish every little karma point he could get his little hands on.

Mr. Lucky has been played in several Shadowrun Missions games. So far, the only karma he's spent is to raise his Quickness to 6, and that was because I couldn't figure out anything else to do with it. And when I get to play, I have to bite my tongue to keep him from dominating a game. He took on an entire team of prime runners (named characters) by himself and won. He's never come close to spending all of his Edge, and has gone through at least one Mission without spending any at all. I have outfaced the face, been more sneaky than the ninja, and always dominated combat with that character. About all I haven't done is decking and magic, and those were deliberate choices when the character was built.

But once again, we're getting off topic. Mr. Lucky is proof of principle that you can completely dominate one area (in this case, pistol combat) and be so well-rounded in other areas, there's not much point in improvement. He doesn't actually need his other skills to be at a high level, he just needs enough to get by. High levels of, say, social skills is the province of the face. Shadowrun is meant to be a team game, and making a one-man shadowrunning team is not desireable in any way, form, or fashion. However, making someone who fills his role so well, he cannot bring anything more to the team except backup, is an easy proposition.

[ArkonC]

But once again, we're getting off topic. Mr. Lucky is proof of principle that you can completely dominate one area (in this case, pistol combat) and be so well-rounded in other areas, there's not much point in improvement. He doesn't actually need his other skills to be at a high level, he just needs enough to get by. High levels of, say, social skills is the province of the face. Shadowrun is meant to be a team game, and making a one-man shadowrunning team is not desireable in any way, form, or fashion. However, making someone who fills his role so well, he cannot bring anything more to the team except backup, is an easy proposition.

As I said earlier I think Mr. Lucky is prone to improvement...
I even gave a quick rundown of how he could improve his combat usefulness...
Anyway, I'm not convinced...

[Cain]

As I said earlier I think Mr. Lucky is prone to improvement...
I even gave a quick rundown of how he could improve his combat usefulness...
Anyway, I'm not convinced...

Like someone else said, it depends on how wide of an area we're discussing. "All combat" is too broad, while apparently people feel that "Pistols" is too small. However, the principle remains. There's nothing that can be done to significantly improve Mr. Lucky's ability with pistols. Maybe we can add a die here or there, but not a lot of improvement can be made. As far as the rest goes, melee combat is the province of the adept, so he only needs enough to defend himself with. Similarly, there's no need for an increase in Strength.

But if we go to "all firearms" as an area, we can take the basic Mr. Lucky build, and give him a 4 in Longarms and Automatics. Now we have a character with 18 dice in pistols and 15 with other firearms, and is well-rounded enough in noncombat skills that he doesn't really need to worry about improving them. Maybe raise the Quickness, but that's only one die.

[ArkonC]

Well, that ends that challenge, I shall not make any statements on it as that would give me the last word and prompt a response which is unlikely to convince me...
Let's say it's been interesting... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[mfb]

your challenge is impossible to meet because it's incredibly ill-defined.

[ArkonC]

your challenge is impossible to meet because it's incredibly ill-defined.

Are you serious?
You say nothing of relevance the whole thread and when it's over then you have issues with the challenge?