A few thoughts/questions about adept powers Options

[ikarius]

Hey folks,
So I'm working on developing my first SR4 character, and I've got a couple things nagging at me.


1. Traceless walk has doubled in cost!! - I'm really not sure why, either. It's nice, but it's also highly situational. Do most others feel the PP cost bump was appropriate?

2. Eidetic sense memory vs three-dimensional memory - They cost the same PP, and while three-dimensional memory is pretty well spelled out in how you may use it, eidetic sense memory is not. How many things could be memorized with eidetic sense memory? For how long? Does it take an explicit "I'm memorizing the current smells", or could a player with it simply go back to something at will? Perhaps a "memorization" would require what amounts to an "Observe in Detail" action? It's really not spelled out at all. Thoughts?


Cheers
Ikarius

[Herald of Verjig...]

2) The SR3 description isn't any better and is very similar to the description in the SR3 Companion for photographic memory. It just looks like the GM has to remind the player of any details that the player wants to be reminded of without the player being responsible for his own memory.

[Aaron]

This is my interpretation, but I think 3D Sense Memory lets you do things like do an Observe in Detail action in the middle of a gun fight, and then go back later to read the serial number off of the gun being fired at you by the guy that got away with the briefcase (or whatever).

[Herald of Verjig...]

I probably should've mentioned that I was just looking into the eidetic sense. Yes, 3d is great if you expect to need some little detail of this specific scene at a later time. (so, great for a detective adept, potentially useful for others)

[ikarius]

Well, I'm still kinda murky on eidetic sense memory. Like I said, 3D memory is relatively well spelled out. Eidetic sense memory... It says I can recall with perfect clarity a particular sense- visual, audible, tactile, olefactory. So, I'm assuming I could memorize a document I looked at word for word. But there are so many other.... possibilities.


RAW, it appears I could memorize the sound of some weapon, then later scan through a "sound signature" database of weaponry and identify exactly what make/model of weapon it was being fired.

I could memorize a face or voice then scan through a database and attempt to identify the person at a later time.

The possibilities for eidetic sense memory as written appear nearly endless, and there are no written limitations on what I could memorize, how many things I can memorize, or what sort of action is required to memorize something.

Another interesting possibility which does not appear to be excluded by RAW would be "playing back" eidetic memories and recording them to a simsense recording.

It comes down to RAW 3D memory is written with explicit limitations; eidetic sense memory is not, and thus appears broken. I'm interested in what folks feel are "reasonable" expectations for the eidetic sense memory power.

Cheers
Ikarius

[Larme]

On traceless walk, the upped price makes perfect sense: traceless walk was waay too cheap in SR3. Even if you weren't a terribly stealth based adept, it really was a no brainer. For .25, you'd have to be dumb not to take it. So they upped the price to make you think about it -- it's still good, but it's no longer a no-brainer.

[ikarius]

Larme,
Traceless walk wasn't .25 in SR3- it was .5. In SR4, it's a full PP. At .5, I'd personally rate it a reasonably good purchase, but certainly droppable if you're scraping for PP. At 1 PP, it seems.... too situational for the cost. There's a half-dozen other things with more frequent usability which I'd buy long before traceless walk. Do you still feel the same way with the costs being double what you thought they were?

Cheers
Ikarius

[ArkonC]

I wouldn't dream of playing any stealthy adept without it...
They could up the cost to 2 and I'd still buy it...
No visual traces, -4 for hearing Perception...
Add a chameleon suit and people with a perception DP of 4 have no chance of noticing you...
I don't see how anyone wouldn't take this really (unless they have no ambition to be sneaky)...

[Kyoto Kid]

...once the lead start's a flyin', I'd rather have 2 points of Mystic Armour or Combat Sense.

All the sneakiness means nothing if one of the guards has Ultrasound or Radar sense Cyber, is a mage who can astrally perceive, or there's a critter who can scent you.

[ArkonC]

...once the lead start's a flyin', I'd rather have 2 points of Mystic Armour or Combat Sense.

All the sneakiness means nothing if one of the guards has Ultrasound or Radar sense Cyber, is a mage who can astrally perceive, or there's a critter who can scent you.

By that reasoning, why bother trying to sneak at all...
OR better, why bother with armor, they might have armor piercing rounds...

[Kyoto Kid]

...with how few PPs one begins with & how expensive they are after chargen, I'd rather deal with the offhand chance of an occasional APDS round coming my way in trade for a better armour value & soak pool the rest of the time. Between a third to nearly half of an adept's starting PPs are dumped into initiative. That makes the remaining points even more valuable IMO. To use them on such an expensive power. If it were still .5 I'd say OK & maybe not take Elemental Strike, Voice Control, or that one extra level of Spell Resistance.

[Glyph]

Well, I'm still kinda murky on eidetic sense memory. Like I said, 3D memory is relatively well spelled out. Eidetic sense memory... It says I can recall with perfect clarity a particular sense- visual, audible, tactile, olefactory. So, I'm assuming I could memorize a document I looked at word for word. But there are so many other.... possibilities.


RAW, it appears I could memorize the sound of some weapon, then later scan through a "sound signature" database of weaponry and identify exactly what make/model of weapon it was being fired.

I could memorize a face or voice then scan through a database and attempt to identify the person at a later time.

The possibilities for eidetic sense memory as written appear nearly endless, and there are no written limitations on what I could memorize, how many things I can memorize, or what sort of action is required to memorize something.

Another interesting possibility which does not appear to be excluded by RAW would be "playing back" eidetic memories and recording them to a simsense recording.

It comes down to RAW 3D memory is written with explicit limitations; eidetic sense memory is not, and thus appears broken. I'm interested in what folks feel are "reasonable" expectations for the eidetic sense memory power.

Cheers
Ikarius

As far as "broken" goes, remember that senseware has unlimited recording memory. Someone with cybereyes and cyberears, or a simlink, essentially has the equivalent of eidetic sense memory, with the added advantage of being able to share what they have seen with others.

[ArkonC]

...with how few PPs one begins with & how expensive they are after chargen, I'd rather deal with the offhand chance of an occasional APDS round coming my way in trade for a better armour value & soak pool the rest of the time. Between a third to nearly half of an adept's starting PPs are dumped into initiative. That makes the remaining points even more valuable IMO. To use them on such an expensive power. If it were still .5 I'd say OK & maybe not take Elemental Strike, Voice Control, or that one extra level of Spell Resistance.

Right, I think I get the problem...
Reread my post, I'll make it easy and quote the important part...

I wouldn't dream of playing any stealthy adept without it...

Now, getting Mystic Armor, Combat sense and Improved Reflexes doesn't seem like the most productive way of spending those precious PPs for a stealther...

[ikarius]

Age old argument of specialization versus generality. I tend to lean in the direction Kyoto does; at SOME point stealth is GOING to fail- it's guaranteed. I'm scraping for points, and once it's failed, I want my character to live to sneak another day. I just think that a full point for 4 dice against being HEARD + immunity to floor sensors is a shaky buy. Hell, spend a full point to get 4 points of full-on infiltration skill! OR, spend it on some survivability.... I guess it just comes down to the skill no longer being a "good" buy- it's only an OKish buy anymore; you're essentially buying 4 highly specialized infiltration dice + an alternate to wall running for that one point.

Glyph- thanks for your response- it helps me understand eidetic memory much better (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Ikarius

[ArkonC]

Age old argument of specialization versus generality. I tend to lean in the direction Kyoto does; at SOME point stealth is GOING to fail- it's guaranteed. I'm scraping for points, and once it's failed, I want my character to live to sneak another day. I just think that a full point for 4 dice against being HEARD + immunity to floor sensors is a shaky buy. Hell, spend a full point to get 4 points of full-on infiltration skill! OR, spend it on some survivability.... I guess it just comes down to the skill no longer being a "good" buy- it's only an OKish buy anymore; you're essentially buying 4 highly specialized infiltration dice + an alternate to wall running for that one point.

Glyph- thanks for your response- it helps me understand eidetic memory much better (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Ikarius

So would you say getting chameleon armor over combat armor is specializing too?
I _can_ hold my own in a fight...
I'd rather be good at getting in and out and decent at fighting than just OK at both...
Yes, sneaking will fail eventually, but by the same reasoning, you will eventually get hit...

[Shinobi Killfist]

A huge assortment of powers are poorly priced IMO.

Traceless walk while cool and useful isn't 1 PP useful.

Gliding and wall-running are pure spend lots of PP for cool. I can come up with ways to use them but overall a waste of PP and at 1 a pop I have to have really have a firm concept to buy something that is that situational.

Smashing Blow, I really love it. But 1 PP so I can kick down a door a bit better. Sure at my base DV it means I can kick down virtually anything but without it i still go through most doors. If it worked on vehicles it would be worth it, but maybe too good.

I'm up in the air about distance strike, I honestly don't care about the distance 6 meters is virtually meaningless to me. But removing the skill part to peoples defense rolls actually starts putting unarmed combat on par with guns. I'm going to take it so I guess its worth the 2 points for me, but I wish there was a version without range. Lightning strike you punch so fast they can't see it coming and can't actively defend against it. Also a lot of the stacking limitations seem unneeded especially on such expensive powers. If someone drops 2 points on distance strike it should work with pretty much every other unarmed phys add move.

Improved reflexes I understand why its this expensive but i don't like the feel of it. I get its the wired of phys ads, I just like that it makes taking synaptic boosters an almost no brainier. Its a fluff thing but I prefer the old school idea where magic types tend to avoid cyber or bio at virtually all costs. Improving the magic attribute is just too expensive to spend 3 points on something I can get with bio for 1.