Indispensable, What's the new Etiquette? Options

[Eyeless Blond]

Back in SR3, you were pretty much preordained to fail horribly if:

-You had no etiquette skill and/or a low Charisma
-A Body or Willpower below 4-5
-Only one initiative pass
-No or little armor

Now that we're in SR4, what are the new indispensable skills/attributes? What should no character ever be without? I'm assuming Dodge and Perception go into this category; is etiquette still there or did it move to a different social skill?

[Particle_Beam]

Stealth as skill group should be mandatory for every shadowrunner who wants to survive more than 3 days in the sprawls. And yes, Ettiquette still exists, and is now part of the Influence skill group. Oh, and every shadowrunner should know how to defend him/herself.

Check out the SR 4 BBB.

[Ravor]

( A ) The necessary knowledge and equipment to set up and maintain your own commlink security, including your own programs. (NEVER, EVER trust the team's Decker to "handle it" for you.)

( B ) The common sense not to buy into "wireless is good, always use it" meme that the megas want you to buy into, Runners have been pulling off jobs for decades without this fancy AR crap, and so can you.

( C ) A datajack.

[Daier Mune]

Skills: Negotiation, Perception, Dodge must all be taken
Attributes: Body and Willpower must never go below 3.
Initiative: should never go below 2 passes

[Nightwalker450]

(B) sounds like somebody who's behind the times. US Postal Service worked back in the day as well, but everything I deal with is email now. Wireless is good, just keep it secure. And not working with AR is denying yourself that extra edge that could save your ass when the drek hits the fan. I'd rather run full out wireless and worry about a hacker getting to my stuff (from a range of 3 meters usually), then blind myself in a very dehilibating way.

Old Schools good, but if your behind the times, you will just be left behind.

[It trolls!]

For me, two skills are essential to every character: Perception and Etiquette, both for obvious reason. Dodge is usually handled by Gymnastics.
Apart from that, NEVER design a character concept without a commlink. Your fellow players will hate your for it.

[FrankTrollman]

Perception.

Infiltration.

-Frank

[ArkonC]

( A ) The necessary knowledge and equipment to set up and maintain your own commlink security, including your own programs. (NEVER, EVER trust the team's Decker to "handle it" for you.)

Seems like someone has trust issues...
This is like saying "don't trust the mage to handle magic for you", "don't trust the sammy to handle combat for you" or "don't trust the face to handle talking for you"...
You should trust your Decker to handle this for you...

And 2 more of my (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

EDIT: Crud, forgot to give my answer to the OP...
I don't think there is anything a single character needs, but there are things every team needs...
Matrix defense and Magic defense can mostly be handled by the decker and mage...
Combat defence is tricky, a face should never get in combat and if he does he should look for cover and stay there till the sammy turns around and starts mocking the face for being a coward, but things rarely go as planned...
And even though it is nice to be able to talk, cha 3 and influence 2 seems a waste since you'll let your face handle it 99% of the time anyway...

EDIT2: And about wireless, and AR, they really do have their advantages, even though they open up new problems...
In a game I was a GM aid, the sammy went down (from stun damage) and the decker took control of the sammies cyberarms and killed the 2 remaining secguards by shooting them in the back...

[Malicant]

Dodge is usually handled by Gymnastics.

How? Are you on full defense all the time? Even than Dodge would be usefull.

[Teulisch]

Negotiation (used to find new gear, and to defend vs Con), Perception, Dodge(no dodge = no full defense)
some minimal ability to drive a car/bike, shoot a gun, and survive a melee.

body defines maximum armor. low body = no armor= no soak= make new character. about body 4 to have good overall survivability.

a high stat will now let you get by without some skills. agility 5(7)= 6 dice for unskilled agility tests. this will be enough for some things, and you can get the skill for it later. other things this wont work with (never default demolitions, or throwing explosive grenades!)

past that... Commlinks, get firewall 6 and analyze at system rating. you roll firewall+analyze when being hacked to detect the intruder. rating 3 is affordable for most characters, and 9 dice will usually overcome an attackers stealth program in the time to takes to bypass a firewall(6+) threshold.

remember to buy at least 2 contacts with your BP, and to get your fake sin+permits. cyberware scanners are fairly common and cheap after all.

[It trolls!]

How? Are you on full defense all the time? Even than Dodge would be usefull.

I think that topic might've already been discussed to death here in the past so I won't start a new argument, but in short:

In ranged combat (which occurs most often in SR), Dodge has no benefit over Gymnastics other than if I go for Full defense, I can get a few more dice by specializing Dodge into ranged combat. If you plan on creating a melee centric combat character, I agree, Dodge might be more useful.
But in all other cases the all-around usefulness of Gymnastics outweighs the very limited use of the Dodge skill for me.

[Adarael]

( A ) The necessary knowledge and equipment to set up and maintain your own commlink security, including your own programs. (NEVER, EVER trust the team's Decker to "handle it" for you.)

That depends on how good your decker is and how much you trust them, doesn't it?

( B ) The common sense not to buy into "wireless is good, always use it" meme that the megas want you to buy into, Runners have been pulling off jobs for decades without this fancy AR crap, and so can you.

Speak for yourself. I've been rigging my characters up with that "fancy AR BattleTac crap" for as long as I've been able to.

( C ) A datajack.

Or a headware commlink.

[Eyeless Blond]

Check out the SR 4 BBB.

Well, yeah. Naturally.

What I'm looking for here are the unwritten rules, the bits of wisdom (like "Etiquette is king") that you don't find in the books, that only come through actually playing.

[Malicant]

I think that topic might've already been discussed to death here in the past so I won't start a new argument, but in short:

In ranged combat (which occurs most often in SR), Dodge has no benefit over Gymnastics other than if I go for Full defense, I can get a few more dice by specializing Dodge into ranged combat. If you plan on creating a melee centric combat character, I agree, Dodge might be more useful.
But in all other cases the all-around usefulness of Gymnastics outweighs the very limited use of the Dodge skill for me.

I really don't get it. How can Gymnastics outweight Dodge, when both are added together on full defense? Whatever, since it has been obviously talked to death, I sure can find the results of such discussion somewhere rotting around here (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

But the picture of my character dancing around to avoid beeing hit is just wrong.

[FrankTrollman]

I really don't get it. How can Gymnastics outweight Dodge, when both are added together on full defense? Whatever, since it has been obviously talked to death, I sure can find the results of such discussion somewhere rotting around here (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

But the picture of my character dancing around to avoid being hit is just wrong.

When you add a skill to your defense you have a number of choices of skills to use in different circumstances. Dodge has the advantage that it can be selected at any point you would be allowed to select any skill. But if you have a melee combat skill and you have Gymnastics, then you can select something all the time. And then getting Dodge on top of that is a waste of points.

So if you have Gymnastics Or Unarmed Combat, then you would be better off taking the other one than taking Dodge. You'd get the same bonuses to your defense pool but you'd also be able to flip out or kick people in the face. Dodge only pays the bills when your character wouldn't have Gymnastics and wouldn't have Unarmed Combat. And that's a narrow (but non-zero) slice of the Shadowrunner population.

Dodge isn't a skill for combat monsters, it's a skill for non-combat characters.

-Frank

[It trolls!]

I just wrote him a PM because I didn't want to add to the recent wave of massive thread derailing turning this into a "Can Lofwyr dodge my Dikote'd ally spirit thrown at him with a weapon focus catapult" But yes, I totally forgot about Full parry. It's been ages since I read the melee rules.

Back on topic: I also find it useful to have several secondary skills with one token point as this 4BP investment nets me 2 dice more on the appropriate tests for cheap.

Edit: VVVV I made my points on what I differ with him, other than that he doesn't need to be addressed further because his post contains pure truth already.

[Larme]

Skills: Negotiation, Perception, Dodge must all be taken
Attributes: Body and Willpower must never go below 3.
Initiative: should never go below 2 passes

What, just because a guy's got a low post count you ignore him? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

I think Daier has the best take so far. Though I'm not so sure about negotiation. I think that low charisma characters with no social skills are viable, so long as they don't put themselves into situations where social tests are necessary.

But Peception is 100% required, or you'll die. You need Dodge, or you'll die. You need body at least 3 otherwise you can't wear even halfway decent armor, and you'll die. And you need Willpower at least 3 because otherwise you won't resist the weakest of spells or social tests against you, even using edge. And on initiative, the 1 oass runner is not exactly viable in any sort of semi-threatening combat situation.

[Mr. Unpronouncea...]

When you add a skill to your defense you have a number of choices of skills to use in different circumstances. Dodge has the advantage that it can be selected at any point you would be allowed to select any skill. But if you have a melee combat skill and you have Gymnastics, then you can select something all the time. And then getting Dodge on top of that is a waste of points.

Unless, say, your melee skill is blades and you have an assault rifle in your hands. Dodge is pretty much necessary there because you can't melee parry with an inappropriate weapon.

[MaxHunter]

More than one initiative pass

perception

infiltration and or shadowing

body at least 3 and armor (and cover!)

etiquette is good for pros but you might survive without it

Some kind of commlink proficiency/ security

So, pretty much what every one said (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Cheers!

Max

[MaxHunter]

...Forgot to add: a hidden locker somewhere with a new fake ID, a pistol, a medkit, one set of clothes, some nuyen and air tickets to another continent. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

Cheers!

Max

[It trolls!]

...Forgot to add: a hidden locker somewhere with a new fake ID, a pistol, a medkit, one set of clothes, some nuyen and air tickets to another continent. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

Cheers!

Max

Great idea, but what in the Sixth World would you deem the right locartion for such a locker? For every location I can come up with in my mind, I immediately find something that could easily compromise it.

Edit: I just now realized how dumb this question might sound but where exactly is "hidden" in Shadowrun? An abandoned building somewhere in the Barrens? Some squatters will sooner or later discover your locker and make off with the contents. A secure locker at a bank? You will need to provide ID and you will be recorded by security cameras which are things you want really want to avoid under the circumstances that you need the contents in.
Hand it to a very close friend? Well, your contacts are the first people, the guys who are out to get you will probably go... and well... you get my problem.

[Lionhearted]

Great idea, but what in the Sixth World would you deem the right locartion for such a locker? For every location I can come up with in my mind, I immediately find something that could easily compromise it.

Edit: I just now realized how dumb this question might sound but where exactly is "hidden" in Shadowrun? An abandoned building somewhere in the Barrens? Some squatters will sooner or later discover your locker and make off with the contents. A secure locker at a bank? You will need to provide ID and you will be recorded by security cameras which are things you want really want to avoid under the circumstances that you need the contents in.
Hand it to a very close friend? Well, your contacts are the first people, the guys who are out to get you will probably go... and well... you get my problem.

Im thinking a coffin hotel "room"

[WearzManySkins]

I believe that Perception is the most key skill for any character, having no perception at all, makes things interesting.

As for the rest depends upon your character concept and team mates.

Having no negotiation skills mean you pay the going rate, like to today, you walk into a store pay the list/quoted price and walk out.

As for extra initiative passes again depends upon GM, character concept and team mates.

WMS

[Fortune]

Great idea, but what in the Sixth World would you deem the right locartion for such a locker? For every location I can come up with in my mind, I immediately find something that could easily compromise it.

Bus and train stations. Permanently rented coffin hotel rooms. Lockers outside of amusements parks, malls or other attractions. The list is almost endless.

[Kanada Ten]

Im thinking a coffin hotel "room"

I was thinking: buy a Horseman under the back-up ID, fill it with your supplies, and drone it to an airport's longterm parking facility. When you need it, you can call it up and have it meet you wherever you are.