If I had a little money..., SRM related... Options

[ArkonC]

Is it just me or do the Johnsons in the SRM have no idea how much things cost?
We did the first 2 missions and earned 3500 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) and 5000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) respectively...
Quite frankly I wanted to walk away from the first one, but said yes for OOC reasons (I wanted to play the game)...
But seriously, if the third one doesn't earn at least 10000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) a person standard pay without loot or other perks I am not risking my life anymore...
It actually cost us money to do these runs, adding everything together...

Anyone have any thoughts on this?
Am I just being a spoiled little brat?

[cryptoknight]

Is it just me or do the Johnsons in the SRM have no idea how much things cost?
We did the first 2 missions and earned 3500 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) and 5000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) respectively...
Quite frankly I wanted to walk away from the first one, but said yes for OOC reasons (I wanted to play the game)...
But seriously, if the third one doesn't earn at least 10000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) a person standard pay without loot or other perks I am not risking my life anymore...
It actually cost us money to do these runs, adding everything together...

Anyone have any thoughts on this?
Am I just being a spoiled little brat?

I agree with you... It's been a concern of mine about missions... and btw I just looked at the third mission in the series.... don't expect much.

[Ancient History]

Spoilt. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) The Shadowrun Missions are definitely on the low-end of the pay scale, and are designed to be so for issues of balance and atmosphere. I don't always like a game where you have a program ticking off how much each shot costs you, but it does keep players in SRM from using a kilo of plastic explosives to solve every program...and if you do save up for the big ticket item/implant, you feel like you've earned it and can then lord it over everyone. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[Malicant]

Those are avarage pay sums. Don't like it, walk away and do something else. Or talk to your GM.

And if you had to spend more money to finish those runs your approach must be faulty. Or your GM let's you pay for stuff that should not cost, or he overcharges for small stuff.

[Synner667]

You're not much a spoiled brat, but have fallen into the very common trap of assuming that you DESERVE lots of money for doing a Shadowrun.

Without wanting to be flippant, what you're experiencing relates to development - you work for your money, taking more than a single session to get enough money to get the gear that you want.


Of course, it depends on the type of game you play - streetpunks would be more than happy with ¥3000, professionals probably wouldn't take the job.

Which is where it gets interesting - how many of those jobs would you turn down before you run out of money and MUST take one, just to pay the rent ??


Then again, ¥3000 for a straightforward job isn't too bad [especially for 1-2 days work], but would be insulting for something that was dangerous and risky.

You do what you're paid for.

[cryptoknight]

Personally I think that SRM's pay about half what I would assume to be the going rate.

Not all of them, but so far the recipe seems to be (¥3000 + TR * ¥500)... for what the first mission is... maybe...

I dunno.... but double that amount seems about right to me... it still means you have to save up for the big ticket purchases... But at least if you're getting close to ¥10000 you can afford high end ware and gear before the 25 adventure arc is done.

[ArkonC]

You're not much a spoiled brat, but have fallen into the very common trap of assuming that you DESERVE lots of money for doing a Shadowrun.

Without wanting to be flippant, what you're experiencing relates to development - you work for your money, taking more than a single session to get enough money to get the gear that you want.


Of course, it depends on the type of game you play - streetpunks would be more than happy with ¥3000, professionals probably wouldn't take the job.

Which is where it gets interesting - how many of those jobs would you turn down before you run out of money and MUST take one, just to pay the rent ??


Then again, ¥3000 for a straightforward job isn't too bad [especially for 1-2 days work], but would be insulting for something that was dangerous and risky.

You do what you're paid for.

The way it is, my character thought to make money running, even though I as a player do it for the Karma, my character does it for the (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) ...
I don't even really need the money, I have my high class apt, payed for 5 months, a nice sedan, and I am a good doctor, I'm also good at talking to people...
I can earn more than that just being a doctor, or a high class prostitute,... Erm, I mean escort...
For next session I'm going to bring a backup character who actually would risk his life for very little money, because if the pay doesn't increase, This one would not realisticly do it, she actually shouldn't have done the first 2 runs either, but that was explained away with the "next time will be better" rationale...
She started with 12500 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) on her, so I haven't even earned my starting cash...
It's easier for me, I don't fight or use any expensive consumables, or need any expensive equipment, but this is ridiculous...

[Caine Hazen]

Missions are designed to be a starting, street level set of runs. As things progress through, runners will get paid a bit more, but overall you aren't earning enough to be a "high class asset". People often forget that SR4 was suppose to bring you closer to this street level, and the Missions campaign reflects that.

Now you should also factor in the time between runs... some groups use the calandar and only run 1-2 missiosn a "month", however you should be running this as 4 runs a month, so 3000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) per comes out to you earning 12K (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) a month. If you choose to live "high class" this is going to hurt you some. But its something the GM running things should have made clear... you're bearly clearing scale if you want to life the high life... thus the grittier street level warning.

To be fair, runners that get more experience get more pay, but even playing all of these runs for full karma will get you only to TR 3 or so (I haven't done the math to make sure...). By TR 2 you can get to about 5000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) a run, so you can plan on getting some better toys later...

Overall I'd not call it spoilt as much as I'd call it "needing to adjust" to the campaign style.

[ArkonC]

Missions are designed to be a starting, street level set of runs. As things progress through, runners will get paid a bit more, but overall you aren't earning enough to be a "high class asset". People often forget that SR4 was suppose to bring you closer to this street level, and the Missions campaign reflects that.

Now you should also factor in the time between runs... some groups use the calandar and only run 1-2 missiosn a "month", however you should be running this as 4 runs a month, so 3000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) per comes out to you earning 12K (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) a month. If you choose to live "high class" this is going to hurt you some. But its something the GM running things should have made clear... you're bearly clearing scale if you want to life the high life... thus the grittier street level warning.

To be fair, runners that get more experience get more pay, but even playing all of these runs for full karma will get you only to TR 3 or so (I haven't done the math to make sure...). By TR 2 you can get to about 5000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) a run, so you can plan on getting some better toys later...

Overall I'd not call it spoilt as much as I'd call it "needing to adjust" to the campaign style.

My lifestyle doesn't cost me anything for the moment, as I said, it's been payed for for 5 months...
Also, why would pay need to depend on your karma, that seems like an OOC way of dealing with it, and even then, it would make sense to base it on useful skills...
I mean a why should Joe, fresh out of military academy, earn less than Bob, who's been an artisan all his life and has over 300 Karma invested in Weaving Wicker Baskets and Woodcutting? I know it's an unrealistic example, but I hope it does prove my point...

Anyway, maybe you're right, my character isn't meant for these street level runs, she's too good for them...
I'll make an alcoholic Doc with the shakes for next session, at least he'll be happy with whatever they give him...
My fellow players however will lose a good doc and face...
"Shakes"...
I think I already have a nickname for him...

[Fortune]

While I do think that the Missions pay scale is a little low, i just wanted to point out a semi-related bit of fluff.

Most of us have watched Burn Notice (it is on about episode 5 or 6 in Oz). I was kind of surprised (and pleased) to see that the pay rate for his jobs seems to be on a par with the Missions scale. He gets a smallish flat fee (not per person) that has to cover his three-person team, plus expenses and the added 'extra' every now and then. On top of that, he might get the odd occasion to loot something or other along the way.

[the_dunner]

Ironically, I've actually been considering decreasing the amount of money provided in Missions games for the next story arc. My experience in reviewing character sheets of folks who have played 10+ runs is that they typically have substantially more nuyen than they know what to do with. The Denver SRM arc is intended for slow but steady build up from a character that starts on the street. If you want to play a game with high-lifestyle prime runners, then it's definitely not the campaign for you.

I'm sorry I don't have a better answer for you, but one campaign cannot encompass all possible play styles.

[masterofm]

That pay scale just gets to me. If you have to kill people 2000-4000 nuyen seems like a pretty hack job for someone who is a professional sniper (if you roll over 9 dice you are pretty damn good.) For someone to say hey Mr. Crazy insane professional kill this gang leader, you will put your life on the line, 3.5k payment oh and you can loot his car and his corpse.... Killing the whole gang and looting them will probably get you sooooo much more nuyen then the job itself. I mean the stealing cars (for a living) as opposed to doing a run ratio is a pretty good example as to why 2-4k is pretty bad.

400 bps is crazy insane what you can do with that. If a person is just a no named dude with 400 bps I would be shocked and wonder how many shadowrunners exist in the setting.

[ArkonC]

Ironically, I've actually been considering decreasing the amount of money provided in Missions games for the next story arc. My experience in reviewing character sheets of folks who have played 10+ runs is that they typically have substantially more nuyen than they know what to do with. The Denver SRM arc is intended for slow but steady build up from a character that starts on the street. If you want to play a game with high-lifestyle prime runners, then it's definitely not the campaign for you.

I'm sorry I don't have a better answer for you, but one campaign cannot encompass all possible play styles.

Doesn't this severely limit character creation?
I mean, my character isn't good for it...
The Street Sam isn't good for it, he's got half a mil invested in ware, this is small fish stuff to him...
The Covert Ops Adept isn't good either, he could earn a ton more just being a cat burglar...
Only our Combat Adept didn't have a problem since he doesn't really need money...

I also cannot see he sammy or the ghost getting enough money to ever get any upgrades this way...
Admitted, my character would have had more than enough cahs, since she doesn't really need it, but it just doesn;t make sense that she would do this...

Maybe I'm just too SR3... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Fortune]

Ironically, I've actually been considering decreasing the amount of money provided in Missions games for the next story arc.

In my opinion, that will just encourage people to load up on all the expensive implants and gear even more than they do now. Even at the current pay scale, there are very few realistic ways to get the big purchase implants and Foci.

My experience in reviewing character sheets of folks who have played 10+ runs is that they typically have substantially more nuyen than they know what to do with.

Or it's possible that they are saving up for some of the stuff that doesn't come cheap, and is kind of hard to find.

[Caine Hazen]

Ironically, I've actually been considering decreasing the amount of money provided in Missions games for the next story arc. My experience in reviewing character sheets of folks who have played 10+ runs is that they typically have substantially more nuyen than they know what to do with. The Denver SRM arc is intended for slow but steady build up from a character that starts on the street.

Man, that would suck for my Rigger (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) I'm going to note that what Fortune says goes for my character, if I wanna upgrade my vehicles and drones, I have to save big time (and Arse didn't help that...) I'll say I've played in 8 missions of 11 run at our local store (and I did 2 months of prepaid high... big mistake on my part; should have lived medium) and after vehicle repair, drone replacement, and ammo replenishes (which is most of what I spent on, since I wanted to save for when Arse came out) I sit with a 28K bankroll. Arse made me earmark about 25K for upgrades to drones, vehicles and a new ride (assuming I can sell of the old one with a moderate amount of success)

I don't know, it seems to ride "just about right" with pay scale to me... but I'll be interested to see how the scale works with NYC (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Phantastik]

Consider the "biggie" here - most runners are SINless.

If you aren't taking these street jobs, what else are you going to do? Get a job with Lonestar? Aztechnology? Good luck with that if you try to get in on a fake SIN (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I actually like a campaign where the characters are less a pile of walking "stuff" and more a set of skills and traits - lower pay helps achieve that. That said, I will say that even my TR 2 adept is actually pretty well off after 6-7 scenarios (I actually have a role-playing hook for him to spend it down the line, and that's that he likes vehicles and will accumulate some high performance bikes and cars over time)... of course, the big "if" here is very cybered characters, but at the same time being all delta'd out becomes that same "pile of stuff" that has plagued other campaigns.

I *would* like to see more opportunities for outside-the-box earning on Nuyen, like more paydata or fence-able stuff in missions, but really hard to get (and will associated downsides for failure) to reward those teams who really work well... it lends a more entrepreneurial feel.

My character leads a middle-class lifestyle (he likes low-key comfort) and aspires to high-class (and dreams of luxury with the grudging realization that if it ever happened, he'd be the world's most spoiled sniper target for about a month... so he just doesn't aspire that way) and, so far, no problems.

...

Not too sure about reducing pay for the NYC arc though... I mean, NYC has, what, double Denver's cost of living? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[ArkonC]

Consider the "biggie" here - most runners are SINless.

If you aren't taking these street jobs, what else are you going to do? Get a job with Lonestar? Aztechnology? Good luck with that if you try to get in on a fake SIN (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I actually like a campaign where the characters are less a pile of walking "stuff" and more a set of skills and traits - lower pay helps achieve that. That said, I will say that even my TR 2 adept is actually pretty well off after 6-7 scenarios (I actually have a role-playing hook for him to spend it down the line, and that's that he likes vehicles and will accumulate some high performance bikes and cars over time)... of course, the big "if" here is very cybered characters, but at the same time being all delta'd out becomes that same "pile of stuff" that has plagued other campaigns.

I *would* like to see more opportunities for outside-the-box earning on Nuyen, like more paydata or fence-able stuff in missions, but really hard to get (and will associated downsides for failure) to reward those teams who really work well... it lends a more entrepreneurial feel.

My character leads a middle-class lifestyle (he likes low-key comfort) and aspires to high-class (and dreams of luxury with the grudging realization that if it ever happened, he'd be the world's most spoiled sniper target for about a month... so he just doesn't aspire that way) and, so far, no problems.

...

Not too sure about reducing pay for the NYC arc though... I mean, NYC has, what, double Denver's cost of living? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

As I said before, practice medicine (Read Street Doc), become high class escort...
OR I can become a fixer, I'm good at talking and people seem to like me...
And those are just looking at my skills...
Also, how did I get that money to buy my lifestyle and my sedan? I must have earned that somewhere...
Or, more extreme, how did the street sam get his half a mil worth of ware and weapons? He's only 22 (I think)...
I do get your reasoning, but it just doesn't hold water when some people spend more money than the can earn in their lifetime at chargen...

[Redjack]

I think you are missing the point, the campaign is street level. A person with a real SIN and a job as a high paid doctor isn't gonna be a runner for the money.... People, even those with over 100G in modifications will take a job, even one's they used to deem beneath them, when they've slept on the street and even enough ramon noodles.

If you want to play a game with high-lifestyle prime runners, then it's definitely not the campaign for you.

If you want to play SRM, you kinda need to build a character for SRM... Rather than expecting SRM to adapt to your character... That can be simply adapting your character's motivation for running.

[ArkonC]

I think you are missing the point, the campaign is street level. A person with a real SIN and a job as a high paid doctor isn't gonna be a runner for the money.... People, even those with over 100G in modifications will take a job, even one's they used to deem beneath them, when they've slept on the street and even enough ramon noodles.


If you want to play SRM, you kinda need to build a character for SRM... Rather than expecting SRM to adapt to your character... That can be simply adapting your character's motivation for running.

I know, I said that earlier... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Had I known, I would have made an appropriate character...
And for next session I will, and I expect so will the 2 others...

[cryptoknight]

I think you are missing the point, the campaign is street level. A person with a real SIN and a job as a high paid doctor isn't gonna be a runner for the money.... People, even those with over 100G in modifications will take a job, even one's they used to deem beneath them, when they've slept on the street and even enough ramon noodles.


If you want to play SRM, you kinda need to build a character for SRM... Rather than expecting SRM to adapt to your character... That can be simply adapting your character's motivation for running.

Right... which leaves out most of the well cybered sams... I suppose SRM was just targetted at the mages and adepts. Because I have to agree... a well augmented character would make more picking up and fencing stolen cars (and a troll with ridiculous STR might just pick them up and carry them away).

The Karma awards are great for the mages (well at least they have more to do with Karma) but the gearheads (Riggers, Sams, etc) improve by buying...

[ArkonC]

Right... which leaves out most of the well cybered sams... I suppose SRM was just targetted at the mages and adepts. Because I have to agree... a well augmented character would make more picking up and fencing stolen cars (and a troll with ridiculous STR might just pick them up and carry them away).

The Karma awards are great for the mages (well at least they have more to do with Karma) but the gearheads (Riggers, Sams, etc) improve by buying...

I would even say that this is beneath most, if not all, mages, since they can earn a ton just producing orichalcum...
For adepts, any challenge is good, what good is (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) when all you need is love... (Yeah, yeah, Karma...)
And I've made my new char, Shakes the Doc, has pretty much the same skill set and attributes but a completely different life...
He has a lot of low level street contacts as opposed to a few well connected ones the other one had...
He has his own chop shop, his own moonshine, I think he'll work perfectly...

[the_dunner]

Not at all, it's targeted at slow character development. Based on the survey results I've seen, folks who are participating in SRMs want to keep playing the same character for as long as possible. If we're to maintain that, and still be open to new players, then development has to be gradual. The average successful completion of an SRM scenario should provide about 5 Karma to each PC. Initial nuyen awards should be on the order of a net profit of a few thousand nuyen, which will ramp up as the PCs gain karma and ramp up the Table Rating.

IME, I've seen cyber focused characters who had in excess of 100,000¥ on hand. I've also seen magic focused characters with a substantial stockpile of karma.

At the SRM Scramble at GenCon 2007, we ran an auction using in-character funds. At the auction, 3 items sold for 20,000¥ or more. One of those was an item which had no in-game effect, and was purchased by a street samurai. Several additional items sold for over 10,000¥. Of course, that's anecdotal.

Reviewing the survey feedback that I've received, however, is a bit less anecdotal. I've gotten over 200 responses. In those responses, there is a clear cut indication that Missions adventures are significantly too easy. Part of that is, admittedly, because they're intended to be an introduction to the game. However, at the same time, if the adventures are too easy, then it doesn't make sense to increase the pay scale.

[R-Caine]

I do not agree that there is no money in Missions, I have played 8 missions so far and have more money than I can use. I started at low lifestyle and have moved up to medium. Plus I now pay upkeep for my magical group, but even given those expenses I have a lot of extra cash. I think some players are not noticing all the extras lying around (not to give any spoilers but in one mission we got to hijack trucks!) also the pay is going up as the experience of the group goes up. Also for the face, the negotiation test is definatly worth using edge on.

R-Caine

[ArkonC]

Not at all, it's targeted at slow character development. Based on the survey results I've seen, folks who are participating in SRMs want to keep playing the same character for as long as possible. If we're to maintain that, and still be open to new players, then development has to be gradual. The average successful completion of an SRM scenario should provide about 5 Karma to each PC. Initial nuyen awards should be on the order of a net profit of a few thousand nuyen, which will ramp up as the PCs gain karma and ramp up the Table Rating.

IME, I've seen cyber focused characters who had in excess of 100,000¥ on hand. I've also seen magic focused characters with a substantial stockpile of karma.

At the SRM Scramble at GenCon 2007, we ran an auction using in-character funds. At the auction, 3 items sold for 20,000¥ or more. One of those was an item which had no in-game effect, and was purchased by a street samurai. Several additional items sold for over 10,000¥. Of course, that's anecdotal.

Reviewing the survey feedback that I've received, however, is a bit less anecdotal. I've gotten over 200 responses. In those responses, there is a clear cut indication that Missions adventures are significantly too easy. Part of that is, admittedly, because they're intended to be an introduction to the game. However, at the same time, if the adventures are too easy, then it doesn't make sense to increase the pay scale.

Yes, I suppose that makes sense, my character never got anywhere near fear of losing life or limb...
Well, as I said, I guess I'm just used to playing on a higher level...

[Fortune]

I do not agree that there is no money in Missions, I have played 8 missions so far and have more money than I can use. I started at low lifestyle and have moved up to medium. Plus I now pay upkeep for my magical group, but even given those expenses I have a lot of extra cash. I think some players are not noticing all the extras lying around (not to give any spoilers but in one mission we got to hijack trucks!) also the pay is going up as the experience of the group goes up. Also for the face, the negotiation test is definatly worth using edge on.

Sams and Riggers have different monetary needs than most awakened characters.

As far as I can see, with this policy, you might as well state up front that upgrades to most half-decent tech and implants are not available in the Missions campaign.