If I had a little money..., SRM related... Options

[cryptoknight]

I do not agree that there is no money in Missions, I have played 8 missions so far and have more money than I can use. I started at low lifestyle and have moved up to medium. Plus I now pay upkeep for my magical group, but even given those expenses I have a lot of extra cash. I think some players are not noticing all the extras lying around (not to give any spoilers but in one mission we got to hijack trucks!) also the pay is going up as the experience of the group goes up. Also for the face, the negotiation test is definatly worth using edge on.

Again... Magicians don't generally have the costs that Sams and Riggers do... When a Rigger loses a ¥3,000 or ¥5,000 Doberman/Steel Lynx or other gear of that nature that's a run's payout to just recoup his losses, not to mention lifestyle upkeep, etc.

They pay scales at the rate of ~¥Xper Table Rating.... So a newbie team averaging 0 Karma gets paid ¥3,000 and a crack expert team averaging 250+ Karma gets paid ¥6,000 for SRM02-01 A parliament of Thieves. Later on I can see this is scaled a bit better with SRM02-03 paying ¥5,000 for a 0 Karma team and ¥17,000 each for a 250 Karma team.

[ArkonC]

Maybe it would be a good idea to make "cash for Karma" and "Karma for cash" standard things in SRM?
That way, no matter how much or how little money and karma is gained, it can be converted to whatever is needed...

I really don't have a problem with low resources games, it's just that as I said, a lot of SR4 characters I've made would find other ways of getting cash that earn them money quicker...
But knowing it is a low resource game, I've made a character that will consider it a step up from what he's been doing until now...

[TranKirsaKali]

The way it is, my character thought to make money running, even though I as a player do it for the Karma, my character does it for the (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) ...
I don't even really need the money, I have my high class apt, payed for 5 months, a nice sedan, and I am a good doctor, I'm also good at talking to people...
I can earn more than that just being a doctor, or a high class prostitute,... Erm, I mean escort...
For next session I'm going to bring a backup character who actually would risk his life for very little money, because if the pay doesn't increase, This one would not realisticly do it, she actually shouldn't have done the first 2 runs either, but that was explained away with the "next time will be better" rationale...
She started with 12500 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) on her, so I haven't even earned my starting cash...
It's easier for me, I don't fight or use any expensive consumables, or need any expensive equipment, but this is get that quridiculous...

First off. If your Runner doesn't need the money, and hasen't done anything wrong to make him run in the shadows; Then why is a good doctor in the shadows? This sounds like bad character creation to me. Shadowrunners are criminals. They may see them selves as a Robin Hood type. They have done something to be outcast or chose to be for some reason or another. Kali has chosen the life because she enjoys the danger and doesn't want to be watched by the man as a Shaman.
Secondly you are the face. Did you try to negotiate for more money? Our face always does. We get paid more than what you are quoting. It is your job to get more money for your team. Heck negotiate for expenses. If you didn't get paid what you wanted it is partly your fault. Also as Someone else said in the forums (srry I forgot to ote), Sell what you find. My group has sold a chopper and several vehicles, as well as weapons and other things we have found. Better New Yen Chummer.

[quote name='ArkonC' date='Feb 27 2008, 06:33 PM' post='641646']
My lifestyle doesn't cost me anything for the moment, as I said, it's been payed for for 5 months...
Also, why would pay need to depend on your karma, that seems like an OOC way of dealing with it, and even then, it would make sense to base it on useful skills...
I mean a why should Joe, fresh out of military academy, earn less than Bob, who's been an artisan all his life and has over 300 Karma invested in Weaving Wicker Baskets and Woodcutting? I know it's an unrealistic example, but I hope it does prove my point...

Finally. . . Yes this is a really bad and silly example. Bob would not (in all likely hood) be a runner. And if he was he would only be hired for jobs that would require his specializations. And respectively, why should my runner Kali get paid the same as your brand new untried character. I have almost 100 karma. I have done more have a higher expertise and more contacts to get the job done. That is why the higher the table rating the more money the team makes. Karma is your experience in the shadows. The more experience the better pay.

[ArkonC]

First off. If your Runner doesn't need the money, and hasen't done anything wrong to make him run in the shadows; Then why is a good doctor in the shadows? This sounds like bad character creation to me. Shadowrunners are criminals. They may see them selves as a Robin Hood type. They have done something to be outcast or chose to be for some reason or another. Kali has chosen the life because she enjoys the danger and doesn't want to be watched by the man as a Shaman.

Well, this seems like you like to jump to conclusions, just because you don't know my characters motivation, doesn't mean she doesn't have any and that invalidates this entire paragraph...
Take me, both me and my wife earn money, we lead a nice life, I don't need more money, but I want more...
My character isn't running the shadows to earn karma and improve her skills, like everyone else, she's in it for the money...
Now instead of blaming it on my skills of making a decent background, maybe you could stop and think about how arrogant that is, judging me on things you don't know...
What's more, I even said that she would stop doing these runs because she, the character ingame, didn't think they were worth it, I enjoy playing her, but it isn't realistic...

Secondly you are the face. Did you try to negotiate for more money? Our face always does. We get paid more than what you are quoting. It is your job to get more money for your team. Heck negotiate for expenses. If you didn't get paid what you wanted it is partly your fault. Also as Someone else said in the forums (srry I forgot to ote), Sell what you find. My group has sold a chopper and several vehicles, as well as weapons and other things we have found. Better New Yen Chummer.

[sarcasm] Oh, is that what a Face does? 'Cause I just thought I'd sit there and look pretty... [/sarcasm]
But seriously, I know the role, I think I got 5 successes on my negotiation roll for the first mission...
And no matter how hard I tried, no expenses could be gotten...
I thought this would at least double the pay, since 4 successes is supposed to be a critical success...
I also know how to loot, loot is not, and never has been, part of the payment, unless it is like the episode 'Aries' of Firefly where the payment for the job is the medicine they can swipe from the hospital...
I didn't keep track of where everyone else spent money on, but me being a talker that doesn't need expensive equipment, I spent very little, But I also earned less than my share because it isn't very fair that I would let everyone pay for their own expenses, so we payed the expenses and split the rest...

Finally. . . Yes this is a really bad and silly example. Bob would not (in all likely hood) be a runner. And if he was he would only be hired for jobs that would require his specializations. And respectively, why should my runner Kali get paid the same as your brand new untried character. I have almost 100 karma. I have done more have a higher expertise and more contacts to get the job done. That is why the higher the table rating the more money the team makes. Karma is your experience in the shadows. The more experience the better pay.

Bullcrap, delivering a box to 47 E14th Street pays 1000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) no matter who delivers it, the thing is people with too much skill or experience just wouldn't take the job, or would think "easy money" and quickly do it...
I don't know how you're used to getting payed, but where I work, we get payed for the work we do, not the work we're capable of...

[the_dunner]

Bullcrap, delivering a box to 47 E14th Street pays 1000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) no matter who delivers it, the thing is people with too much skill or experience just wouldn't take the job, or would think "easy money" and quickly do it...
I don't know how you're used to getting payed, but where I work, we get payed for the work we do, not the work we're capable of...

You realize that as TR goes up, pay increase but the challenge of the scenario increase as well, right?

[ArkonC]

You realize that as TR goes up, pay increase but the challenge of the scenario increase as well, right?

Having never read the missions, only played them, I did not know this...
It does make sense this way...

[TranKirsaKali]

[quote name='ArkonC' date='Feb 28 2008, 08:39 PM' post='642323']
Well, this seems like you like to jump to conclusions, just because you don't know my characters motivation, doesn't mean she doesn't have any and that invalidates this entire paragraph...
money...

Umm, you said it was to make money in a previous post. I was saying that was a bad reason for a good Doctor to run in the shadows. You will not make more money as a begining Runner than as a Doctor. You will make extra money though.


[sarcasm] Oh, is that what a Face does? 'Cause I just thought I'd sit there and look pretty... [/sarcasm]
But seriously, I know the role, I think I got 5 successes on my negotiation roll for the first mission...
And no matter how hard I tried, no expenses could be gotten...

Your successes go against the Johnson's successes. If he/she got more than you then your 5 successes mean nothing and you can actually lose money for the team if you do really badly. Just because you got enough for a critical success doesn't mean you got enough to help raise the amount significantly. You also did not mention attempting for expenses in your post so I was attempting to give you another option. In other words trying to help.

Bullcrap, delivering a box to 47 E14th Street pays 1000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) no matter who delivers it, the thing is people with too much skill or experience just wouldn't take the job, or would think "easy money" and quickly do it...
I don't know how you're used to getting payed, but where I work, we get payed for the work we do, not the work we're capable of...
[/quote/}

And you really don't read what other people type unless is is simple do you? I said the higher the table rating (TR) the higher the pay. Or do you just not listen unless it is Dunner talking? I let you know that I am an experienced runner. I have run Missions for 2 years now. I know what happens in them. If the money lvl didn't go up then no one would play missions anymore. That would be silly.

[Zolhex]

First off there was mention of a half million nuyen in ware for a character type (sammy I think) so question seeing as the rules state 250,000 is max when making a character where did the other quarter of million come from?

Secondly I have gone through all of the Missions between pay and loot I know players who have racked up over a million nuyen. heck one Mission alone there are like 4 or 5 vehicles you can sell off. Heck there is one Mission where you can get a helicopter that has a price of 225,000 resale on that alone even at half book price is worth the run.

Lastly while I get you were probally just making a point any player who sits down at my table to play in SRM 01 to say SRM 10 and says their character has 250 karma will be asked to leave as they have with out a doubt cheated. As it sits all of SRM 01 and all of SRM 02 storylines at max karma rewards is only just hitting the 240 to 250 karma range.

I have had the pleasure to run games for Kali and the rest of her team they get paid quite well and work well enough together that they pull down top nuyen and top karma heh the only complaint they ever really had was the hit to faction they took whlie dealing with a talking panda (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[ArkonC]

Umm, you said it was to make money in a previous post. I was saying that was a bad reason for a good Doctor to run in the shadows. You will not make more money as a begining Runner than as a Doctor. You will make extra money though.

Perhaps I should have been more clear on this point, I meant to differentiate between IC gain such as money and contacts and OOC gain such as Karma...

Your successes go against the Johnson's successes. If he/she got more than you then your 5 successes mean nothing and you can actually lose money for the team if you do really badly. Just because you got enough for a critical success doesn't mean you got enough to help raise the amount significantly. You also did not mention attempting for expenses in your post so I was attempting to give you another option. In other words trying to help.

I got 5 successes over the johnson, this resulted in 500 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) more, no expenses, nothing else...

And you really don't read what other people type unless is is simple do you? I said the higher the table rating (TR) the higher the pay. Or do you just not listen unless it is Dunner talking? I let you know that I am an experienced runner. I have run Missions for 2 years now. I know what happens in them. If the money lvl didn't go up then no one would play missions anymore. That would be silly.

Maybe if you had also said that the NPCs get boosted depending on TR I would have known, I just played the missions, and all you said was as TR goes up, so does pay, which does not, and never will, make sense, as I said before, however, if with the TR, the difficulty also goes up, then it does make sense, as I said before...

First off there was mention of a half million nuyen in ware for a character type (sammy I think) so question seeing as the rules state 250,000 is max when making a character where did the other quarter of million come from?

Secondly I have gone through all of the Missions between pay and loot I know players who have racked up over a million nuyen. heck one Mission alone there are like 4 or 5 vehicles you can sell off. Heck there is one Mission where you can get a helicopter that has a price of 225,000 resale on that alone even at half book price is worth the run.

Lastly while I get you were probally just making a point any player who sits down at my table to play in SRM 01 to say SRM 10 and says their character has 250 karma will be asked to leave as they have with out a doubt cheated. As it sits all of SRM 01 and all of SRM 02 storylines at max karma rewards is only just hitting the 240 to 250 karma range.

I have had the pleasure to run games for Kali and the rest of her team they get paid quite well and work well enough together that they pull down top nuyen and top karma heh the only complaint they ever really had was the hit to faction they took whlie dealing with a talking panda (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Right, all the references to half a mil should have been a quarter of a mil...

[TranKirsaKali]

I got 5 successes over the johnson, this resulted in 500 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) more, no expenses, nothing else...

I do not know the math for TR1 tables. That may have been appropriate for your situation. Also, the expenses thing tends to be up to the GM. Not all of them are going to go for it. Our Face has a habit of rolling 8 or more successes over the NPC. We cap out nicely. And GM's tend to want to do something else when you really blow the NPC out of the water. Just remember things get better as you gain experience.

Maybe if you had also said that the NPCs get boosted depending on TR I would have known, I just played the missions, and all you said was as TR goes up, so does pay, which does not, and never will, make sense, as I said before, however, if with the TR, the difficulty also goes up, then it does make sense, as I said before...

And I am sorry I was not more clear here. I just figured it was common sense that if the players were gaining experience that the jobs they would take and NPC's they would run into would be tougher. Like in any other game you get better and so does the opposition. Otherwise why do it? If it just kept getting easier there would be no challenge to the game. Table rating is an average of the Karma for the table. The Higher the average the higher the rating. I hope you have fun with the game and your new character.

[Redjack]

Our Face has a habit of rolling 8 or more successes over the NPC.

Statistically speaking, to be consistent, that would require 24 dice more than the opposition. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)

[Wasabi]

Statistically speaking, to be consistent, that would require 24 dice more than the opposition. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)

24 dice using front-end edge requires an average of 19 dice.

CALCS: 19 dice rolls an average grosses 6.333 hits. Those 6.333 hits gross 2.111 hits and those 2.111 hits gross .703 hits. This is on average. 19+6.333+2.111+.703 = 28.147 hits

19 Dice for an elf with max charisma [8], tailored pheromones [+3], pheromone receptors [+3], Negotiation 6 [+6], specialized in Bargaining [+2], with a Force 6 Increase Charisma with 6 hits [+6, spirit assisted typically or with the mage having his drain attributes raised via Increase (Willpower)] gives a starting, pre-edge pool of 28 dice, and after the rule of 6 applies per the book (calc'd three times so 9.333+3.111+1.037=41.481).
) means his effective number of hits is as if he had a dice pool of 48.

This assumes no Exceptional Attribute [+1], Kinesics [var.], Genetic Optimization [+1], or Aptitude (Negotiation) [+2]. It also assumes a starting character with no Street Cred. With a street cred of 4, for example, all social tests get 4 exta dice in favor of the character. I'll set aside luck of the player to roll above average. With these 'extras' the numbers balloon even farther. Its specialized, sure, but not at all 'hard' for a character who plays at Missions events with RL Friends able to further boost him via Increase Charisma, Analyze Truth, Aura Perception assisted Judge Intentions, and such (and protect him in combat since he is truly only a face!) that anyone with a desire to throw technomancer-sized dicepools and a desire to be a specialized face can get bajoodles of dice.

I play with TranKirsaKali and the face she mentions and yes, he does on average get 8 hits more than the NPC. It may not be typical but its legit and the face character is played true to what a Face character is. He's just really into being a Face.

[Wasabi]

I got 5 successes over the johnson, this resulted in 500 nuyen

This might be due to the bonus being a percentage of the original amount. If offered 500 nuyen for the run that'd be a 100% increase for your 5 hits, for example. I'm sure the percentage was lower in your case but just saying it may be percentage based so on paper the 500 nuyen may seem generous.

[the_dunner]

Folks,

I've been trying to avoid posting this, because it leads to inherent criticism, but I don't think it's really avoidable.

The basic problem here, is that you're kind of missing the point of Shadowrun Missions -- both the Seattle and Denver campaigns.

These adventures are given away for free because they're intended to be an introduction to Shadowrun -- both for players and GMs.

The scenarios are, almost entirely, really easy. They're intended to be ones that can be completed by a team of 3-4 archetypes out of the book run by new players with minimal casualties. The opposition is intended to be fairly easy for a new GM to manage.

If you're a hardcore player who has an optimized build for every imaginable scenario then this probably isn't the campaign for you. If you've tweaked a character so that 400 BPs acts like 800, then this definitely isn't the campaign for you. The characters don't need to be engineered to be the best there ever was. If they're at about the same level as the book archetypes, then you'll be fine.

Wasabi's Face above is over-engineered for the campaign. It's a terrific build, and in RL, a person like this would be able to make a few phone calls and have a lasting peace treaty in the Middle East set up before lunch. The problem is that he's not establishing a peace treaty. Instead, by using this build in the Missions campaign, he's doing the equivalent of having that same person haggle over the price on an '86 Civic at a Mom & Pop used car dealership. Of course he's going to get a great deal. However, at the end of the day, Mom doesn't have a 2008 Bentley to give him.

I don't think I'm letting out a huge secret by revealing that we cap all negotiations at 5 net hits. I also don't think I'm letting out a huge secret by revealing that most of our NPC dice pools only run into the 6-9 dice neighborhood. Love it or hate it, the campaign is generally focused on being gritty and street level. Complaining that the opposition isn't extremely high end or complaining that the NPCs don't have huge amounts of money to throw around misses the point of the campaign.

If you object to the scope of the campaign -- fill out the survey on the Shadowrun site and say that. Those results are still being tallied, and the NYC campaign clearly isn't completed yet.

[Cthulhudreams]

@Fortune,

I think one solution is just to 'greyhawk' it up. If you steal all the cars and hawk all the guns etc etc as though you were playing 1st ed D&D, I think you can make a tidy buck.

[DR.PaiN]

Having played the first two SRM 02 missions this weekend, I think that the compensation for the runs is spot on.

Around 8 grand for under 24 hours of total work ? That is some fantastic payout for the little amount of prep required to complete the jobs.

This is especially true if there are more favors like what the Johnson offers in the second mission. Full street value, no hassle with a fence? Score.

[Wasabi]

Don't shortchange what you've built. Its better than your post lets on!

By all means ask your Commando's if over the last few years they have had fun running at D*C, which is where me and mine frequent, and I think you'll get a truer picture of how very well Missions has done despite its limited initial scope. There have been a few hiccups, sure, but all in all we have had a blast. Perhaps our experiences have been atypical of other venues, I wouldn't know that, but the Missions program has consistently been far and away better than merely a new player introduction. Perhaps others will have criticism but I write this in the hope you'll recognize how well its already doing so it's focus as being a good game that is run cleanly can continue to be what we players can expect.

[Aaron]

I don't think I'm letting out a huge secret by revealing that we cap all negotiations at 5 net hits. I also don't think I'm letting out a huge secret by revealing that most of our NPC dice pools only run into the 6-9 dice neighborhood. Love it or hate it, the campaign is generally focused on being gritty and street level. Complaining that the opposition isn't extremely high end or complaining that the NPCs don't have huge amounts of money to throw around misses the point of the campaign.

You're forgetting about Table Rating.

[cryptoknight]

I'd like to add... I think it would be awesome if SRM was more similar to the Living DND games...

I love how they attempt to scale via TR so that any team can run any mission... That's even better than the Living games do (I hate APL keeping me out of an adventure).

What I mean is that there's 1 campaign in Denver.. that's it... I just can wish (and hope and pray) that one day instead of just having the one campaign in Denver... there will be multiple campaigns and the whole regional meta-organization stuff. Say a Chicago, Seattle, California, Denver, Hong Kong, New Orleans, and New York chapter running each year +/- a few more for "regions".

[the_dunner]

What I mean is that there's 1 campaign in Denver.. that's it... I just can wish (and hope and pray) that one day instead of just having the one campaign in Denver... there will be multiple campaigns and the whole regional meta-organization stuff. Say a Chicago, Seattle, California, Denver, Hong Kong, New Orleans, and New York chapter running each year +/- a few more for "regions".

You'll need to find a few more players first. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) While that'd be great to have, our playerbase just isn't in the size range required to support those kinds of releases. Find me another 20,000 players, and we'll talk.

[Tobias]

Do they need to be willing? Or can we just tie up 20,000 and ship them to you?

[cryptoknight]

You'll need to find a few more players first. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) While that'd be great to have, our playerbase just isn't in the size range required to support those kinds of releases. Find me another 20,000 players, and we'll talk.

Well 4th Edition DND is coming out... that might get you some spillage... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
I'd volunteer to happily write adventures to help out... except I am slowly coming to think of my writing as something best used to start a fire.

[Cadmus]

*sounds of sparks in the backround and chains clattering about* Hey Dunner..um...those 20k people...Do they have to be breathing? I mean. as long as they can play right? damit I need another storm to pass by...is one good Lighting bolt so much to ask for?

[TranKirsaKali]

Wow, I gave up on this topic before I went on vacation. You guys completely changed what it was about. Dunner, I did fill out the survey. But I agree with Wasabi. One of the main reasons I go to Dragon Con now is to sit in a room with the guys and run the shadows. We have a great time and I have a feeling this year will be at TR 4 together. I have played every 02 mission and had a total blast. No the (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) is not what I play for. I play for the sheer love of the game and getting to watch a character really grow. Shadowrun is what turned me into a gammer girl. And then finding missions. . .
It was a great thing. We have a team of 8 people that meet up together and have a great time at the Con. And it is thanks to you and your team. I don't believe any of us were beginning players when we started. But we have all been challenged and had to stretch our minds to play. Thanks