Used to be legal..., yes officer, I got these in the Army Options

[Wanderer]

I was wondering about the legal position of those runner characters with normally forbidden or restricted bioware or spells, who got them legitimately by reason of a job they hold no more.

I mean, the ex-special forces operative, ex-SWAT cop, ex-cop operative , etc. who learned all kinds of spells and adept powers or got oneself stuffed with bioware and geneware, then left the job, was fired, discharged honorably, etc. They had a SIN and the licence to get or learn restricted or forbidden stuff by reason of their job, then they have returned to civilian life, but obviously they cannot be stripped of their augmentations or magical powers (cyberware might be theoretically deactivated by disabling some key components, but bioware and geneware are not so fragile). Do such characters keep their previous permissions for life, or what ? How could one represent this kind of background in the game system ?

An related but sideline issue: if combat and manipulation spells get heavy legal restrictions, what about adept powers of comparable lethality or potential for abuse ? Shouldn't stuff like Killing Hands get some kind of limitation or licence system ?

[Stahlseele]

Do such characters keep their previous permissions for life, or what ?

if it's in your body, yes, you keep your permission . . does not mean you get to keep the item you have a permission for though . .
Cyber-Weapons especially would probably be removed, but most of the stuff will be simply left in place and Bioware will probably just stay in there too . .

Shouldn't stuff like Killing Hands get some kind of limitation or licence system

yes, yes it should!

[Moon-Hawk]

Well, the spells are relatively simple. You get a license to use them, not to know them. Just like a retired or criminal doctor retains his knowledge, but loses his license to practice.

As for security/military cyberware, I would imagine you keep it (assuming the terms of your contract allow that) and the burden remains on you to keep it registered and keep your permits up-to-date. If you were a fine, upstanding citizen when you got it installed, then things should be fine after you leave that profession. I suppose some things would have to be disabled or removed, but only the really, really scary stuff, like the military laser in your arm. Of course, when you get caught committing a felony they'll deal with your 'ware the same way they deal with all criminals' 'ware, which is it's own flamewar. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
It's a good opportunity for a sensible backstory, thus I'm not going to put too much effort into making it difficult for a player.

[nezumi]

Seems a lot of security corporations would probably realize it's cheaper to keep the person on the books forever as an unpaid 'consultant' and extend their permits to him than it is to remove the gear through surgery or whatnot. Of course, it's a case by case basis, but things like bioware, I can't imagine them thinking any other method is as cheap, and it's better PR than a bullet in the brainpan.

[Synner667]

Good questions !!

This is exactly what a player should be thinking about when designing their character.


I imagine Cyberware is disabled, or replaced with something basic, is someone leaves their position on bad terms.

Bioware/Geneware can probably be disabled using nanomachines, enzymes, etc.

For things like Spells or Adept abilities, those things are part of the person..
..But almost every government would require those people to be licensed, and they would have to get a new license to legally use those abilities [if their old license was because of their job].

Things like skills might be burned out, to prevent them being used [the hacker in Neuromancer, Case, has his ability to use the Matrix burned out].


In fact, on a related tangent, would any of these issues relate to people who are extracted from one Corp, and then work for another ??

[Tzitzimine]

Disclaimer: This is how I would likely handle things in my SR game.

Depending on the nature of the cyber/bio I would say the military removed the system and/or downgraded it to a legal version. Bio could actually be removed and instead replaced with normal vat muscle or whatever. I think the licensing would be more likely since the military wouldn't want to incur the cost of another surgery especially since in order to get the cyber/bio they likely paid for it, in some way, likely by a contract extending their term in the service.

The other option is licensing. They hold a special license that allows them to have the cyber/bio legally, but they are also entered into a database that all law enforcement can access. Also, the military would probably use it as an incentive for recruitment. When these soldiers leave they may be hired by a defense contractor (consisting of ex-military folks) who would want their employees to have that cool pre-paid cyber widget or whatever. As a GM I would make those people choose the SINner quality. Every time a crime is investigated and that person had some crazy cyber arm or something similar the PC gets a knock at his door.

Magic and Adept powers are a lot more difficult. Sure when we create a character we choose their spells and abilities, but perhaps in a RL SR world that isn't the case. Also, they are "natural" abilities. By that I mean internal to who you are. How do you license knowledge? How do you license someone being a black belt? It's tricky.

As a side note. Even today the Military takes a DNA sample of all members. In SR this has a whole new range of implications.

[Stahlseele]

Seems a lot of security corporations would probably realize it's cheaper to keep the person on the books forever as an unpaid 'consultant' and extend their permits to him than it is to remove the gear through surgery or whatnot. Of course, it's a case by case basis, but things like bioware, I can't imagine them thinking any other method is as cheap, and it's better PR than a bullet in the brainpan.

kill it and take it's stuff . . corporates work just like gamers sometimes *g*

[Daddy's Litt...]

Wasn't there something in Lone Star that police are to have some cyber built in, like smart links and if they stay with the star for a set period of time, it is theirs. If they leave before that time the cost comes out of their pay. so fully vested at Lone Star means you own all your body and the toys they put in.

[Grinder]

And there's always the good ol' faked permission.

[deek]

You've got limitation on gear at chargen, therefore anything above and beyond that you'd need to work with your GM to figure out the logistics, IMO. Seeing fake licenses, SINs, etc, can all be purchased, you're really not breaking any rules until you go into forbidden or high availability items...and again, I think the player has to convince the GM of the reason behind that...

I let one player get some high-end gear, not normally allowed in chargen, but I said it had to be implanted with some internal bombs and gps/tracking devices. He was fine with that, so got the gear. He lasted about 15 gaming sessions before the other players killed him because of the black ops that were tracking the group...

[Spike]

Disclaimer: This is how I would likely handle things in my SR game.

Every time a crime is investigated and that person had some crazy cyber arm or something similar the PC gets a knock at his door.


As a side note. Even today the Military takes a DNA sample of all members. In SR this has a whole new range of implications.

While I have minor quibbles with most of your post, this one gets me most: You essentially punish your players for coming up with sensible backgrounds for their cyberware?

Ouch.

Talk about rewarding faceless lists of numbers as an excuse to roll lots of dice character creation.

[Stahlseele]

believe it or not . . there are still people who roll their eyes at the ex cop, ex military background story but expect a background story in which it's explained in detail as to how a 25 year old samurai got gear in the 250k to 1000k nuyen range . . i generally frown upon those but meh, they are still there and to each their own . .

[Larme]

Hmm, I had a whole post about criminal procedure and such, but that's not what this thread is about (IMG:style_emoticons/default/embarrassed.gif)

I think that any ex-military, ex-cops, or ex-security are entitled to licenses for their gear, just like they are today. Generally, this won't extend to Forbidden code firearms , because of the insane amounts of damage they can cause. If there were private citizens that could legally own anti-tank missile launchers, laser cannons, or anti-material rifles, no president or CEO anywhere would be safe... But anything Restricted would be ok to keep, I think. For cyberware, they probably don't force you to downgrade even Forbidden stuff. It would kind of a be a big fuck you to people who selflessly served their country or city, don't you think? "Hey, thanks for risking your life to protect us. We'll be taking that titanium bone lacing out of you with an invasive and excruciating procedure now. Oh yeah, and fuck you, you fucking bastard." I don't see it.

[Siege]

I think it's safe to say that cyber and bioware add a new level of complexity to the equation.

Although no matter how fond I am of my M16A2, I'm pretty sure I don't get the option to take her home in 17 months.

And 4 days.

-Siege

[Spike]

I think it's safe to say that cyber and bioware add a new level of complexity to the equation.

Although no matter how fond I am of my M16A2, I'm pretty sure I don't get the option to take her home in 17 months.

And 4 days.

-Siege

That is true of modern America, certainly, but I could point to half a dozen or more contemporary (and countless historical) nations where that is just not the case. For example, there are anecdotal stories (not being from the region myself) of Soviet Afghanistan vets grabbing their complimentary AKs for whatever reason... including signing back up to kill Chechnyns or defend their families or what have you.

Never mind that one problem faced in Iraq was that despite a fairly brutal dictatorship, retired or mustered out soldiers pretty much kept their guns. There are a LOT of military guns in private hands there..

So in Shadowrun there is no garauntee that ex-military or ex-corpsec types wouldn't get to keep their gear, or purchaces at a discount from their muster pay. Given the level of violence assumed in the setting (with potentially hundreds of freelance terrorists working in Seattle alone..., never mind the existance of the Barrens, heavily armed street gangs, and the fact that awakened Rats can probably be found just about anywhere... and putting out poisoned cheese just ain't gonna cut it....).... well, that pretty much suggests a society where its pretty common to overlook the occasional assault rifle behind the door, especially for an upstanding tax paying citizen.

[Jackstand]

Disclaimer: This is how I would likely handle things in my SR game.

Depending on the nature of the cyber/bio I would say the military removed the system and/or downgraded it to a legal version. Bio could actually be removed and instead replaced with normal vat muscle or whatever. I think the licensing would be more likely since the military wouldn't want to incur the cost of another surgery especially since in order to get the cyber/bio they likely paid for it, in some way, likely by a contract extending their term in the service.

The other option is licensing. They hold a special license that allows them to have the cyber/bio legally, but they are also entered into a database that all law enforcement can access. Also, the military would probably use it as an incentive for recruitment. When these soldiers leave they may be hired by a defense contractor (consisting of ex-military folks) who would want their employees to have that cool pre-paid cyber widget or whatever. As a GM I would make those people choose the SINner quality. Every time a crime is investigated and that person had some crazy cyber arm or something similar the PC gets a knock at his door.

I think that, if your implants are restricted, you would be required to get licenses for them. If they were forbidden, and I'm assuming that we're dealing with the UCAS here, you still have generally the same general rights as a US citizen. That means, insofar as I'm aware, that they can't force you to undergo surgery for any reason. That means that you have cyberware which is unlicensable. Special licensing for forbidden gear isn't an option. Otherwise, they would just be restricted gear, since you could get a fake permit for them. Why? Because there's no reason that a fake SIN can't have a military record.
So, your options become somewhat more limited. It's likely that upon opting to be implanted with forbidden enhancements you would be required to sign a contract saying that you would a) voluntarily undergo the surgery to remove, deactivate, downgrade or otherwise render it unusable, or b) agree to be a lifelong member of whatever organization to which your membership enabled you to acquire those enhancements legally.

Magic and Adept powers are a lot more difficult. Sure when we create a character we choose their spells and abilities, but perhaps in a RL SR world that isn't the case. Also, they are "natural" abilities. By that I mean internal to who you are. How do you license knowledge? How do you license someone being a black belt? It's tricky.

As a side note. Even today the Military takes a DNA sample of all members. In SR this has a whole new range of implications.

As to magic, combat spell formulae are the only forbidden item of equipment, and that presents no real problem. If you know the spell from your military service, you don't need the formula. The only person who needs the formula is someone who doesn't know the spell, but wants to, or someone who wants to traffic in illegal spell formulae. I'm sure that using combat spells is a crime, but in a brief look-over, I wasn't able to find whether you can be licensed to use them, or not. Still, then, it is extremely difficult to regulate who knows what spells, but becomes easier to enforce when a spell is used, and if spell signatures are entered into evidence. As for adepts, God only knows. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[ArkonC]

I think it all depends...
I don't think companies make any issue out of getting that Wired Reflexes 2 out of one guy (the one who's quitting) and putting it in the next (grats, you're hired), I mean they have the facilities, they have the doctors, it's probably cheaper doing it this way than getting a new set...
For the army and the military, it would greatly depend on the country...
And about that DNA and other tracking, I don't know how they do it where you're from, but here, the army protects their own, they don't betray current or former members for ANY reason, unless you were dishonorably discharged, in which case your service basically got null and void...

For mages and adepts, I would say they would keep tabs on these guys if they're powerfull enough, considering the fluff I've read...
Otherwise it's a goodbye and so long...

[Whitelaughter]

Interesting question! However, remember that you've *retired* - that means the cyberware is probably several years out of date anyway. Given the rapid development in both Tech and Magic, I would expect your cutting edge military equipment from 5 years ago to be pretty ordinary on the streets in 2070.

Licensing Adept Powers? How? They're developed by the user! It's like licensing your kidney! Sure, you can license the *design* to a spell; forbid a magician to teach or learn it without a license; but neither Adept Powers nor self-designed spells can realistically be licensed.

[MYST1C]

Although no matter how fond I am of my M16A2, I'm pretty sure I don't get the option to take her home in 17 months.

And now think of Switzerland where every member of the army reserve (which in Switzerland means virtually every adult male) gets to keep his SIG 550 (aka Stgw. 90) assault rifle at home and is even allowed to use it for private shooting...

[nezumi]

I think it's safe to say that cyber and bioware add a new level of complexity to the equation.

Although no matter how fond I am of my M16A2, I'm pretty sure I don't get the option to take her home in 17 months.

And 4 days.

-Siege

Not that you're counting...

My question for you though is how much are they willing to pay to make sure you don't bring it home? In previous wars, they didn't even bother checking the rucksacks and trunks military folk brought back with them, so quite a few guns disappeared. Now from what I understand they take at least a cursory glance, but they aren't checking for false bottoms or anything. If you happened to take out the receiver of your gun and claim it broken, I don't think the military would other itself enough to determine for sure (and now you pop that sucker in an AR-15 and you're good to go). It's a question of cost. The cost of having your sarge stop you on the way out the door and ask you about the four feet of steel under your coat is less than the cost of loosing an M-16. The cost of checking in your trunk is also less than the cost of an M-16. The cost of unwrapping each package, dumping out your pockets and so on probably just about breaks even with the cost of a receiver. If it cost the same or more to remove the smartlink as it does to leave it in and give you a license for it, they'd be a lot more likely to say screw it and give you a license for it.

[Tzitzimine]

While I have minor quibbles with most of your post, this one gets me most: You essentially punish your players for coming up with sensible backgrounds for their cyberware?

Ouch.

Talk about rewarding faceless lists of numbers as an excuse to roll lots of dice character creation.

Right. Because that's exactly what I was saying. How is it punishment to make the characters who give themselves a background actually live up to it?

I have no problem with one of the PC's joining my game as a person with 10 years experience in the UCAS military. But when they do I would make them take SINner. That's not a punishment. It's a fact. If you serve, you have to have a SIN and your DNA/Prints/Photo/History is on file with the UCAS Govt. I do the same with people who used to belong to corps, since their practices are much the same. The fact that it comes with benefits like being able to bust cap on availability restrictions at character creation, is a terrible terrible burden as well. Tragic. It's all very terrible. How dare I.

I would say rewarding faceless lists of numbers is the exact opposite of what I do. Sounds more like your style. "You did 10 years in the military and 10 with the Tir Ghosts so you could have delta 'everything'. Oh, and I see your PC is only 17, ok. I'm fine with that since I wouldn't want to 'punish' you by making your Background match your character sheet."

[Fortune]

There are ways to lose your SIN in the Sixth World ... some voluntary (like hiring a very good hacker or being involved in government black ops) and some not so much (Crash 2.0).

[Chrysalis]

And now think of Switzerland where every member of the army reserve (which in Switzerland means virtually every adult male) gets to keep his SIG 550 (aka Stgw. 90) assault rifle at home and is even allowed to use it for private shooting...

The Swiss can take their gun home, but it does not mean they get issued ammunition for them. Of course buying ammunition for it in Germany is possible but illegal to bring across the border.

As for any other country, well my own experience is with the British Army, I have a duty and obligation on reporting any misuse of army matériél. Even out, I am still bound by that sense of duty. There is no reason any-one would need an anti-tank mine for memento reasons.

God forbid someone "lose" their rifle. It does happen but since Afghanistan there are very stiff penalties attached to it up and including prison time. Often there are wankers who think it is cool to take casings home with them, but then again we police even the brass. Just common sense which should be a habit.

[MK Ultra]

Well, this whole issue is why I´ve got a problem with how many implants are forbidden in the 4th Edition and that the rules say you just can´t have a fake license for F gear.

With military armaments and other gear it´s simple - you can use the alpha combat gun while on the job, but you may not keep it when you go home or retire. But how dos that work for ware? Is a SpecFor soldier not allowed to leave the base on off hours or during vacation? If he is, why can´t I have a fake SIN that says I´m a SpecFor soldier and I´m on vacation? This makes no sense, unless no military/corp/sec personal with F ware ever leaves extraterritorial soil.

In previous editions, cortex bombs where illegal ware and that was about it. Prety much everything else was legal, security or military and licenses could be bought.

[djinni]

There are ways to lose your SIN in the Sixth World ... some voluntary (like hiring a very good hacker or being involved in government black ops) and some not so much (Crash 2.0).

but in losing your SIN you can't have a license...

if you retire with honor at the end of your term you are allowed to keep any implants as the military may employ you for training purposes later. you are given status to transport and carry said items but not allowed to use them except for a proportional response. (you can't cyber spur some guy who is beating you with a chair, because you are a trained killer and he's not)

if you are "secret" or "covert" it possible to not have a SIN when you get out. however you also aren't gonna have any contacts in the military either.