Used to be legal..., yes officer, I got these in the Army Options

[Fortune]

but in losing your SIN you can't have a license...

So then you get a fake ID with a background that covers your stuff, and away you go.

My comment was directed more to the idea suggested above that every character with an ex-military, ex-corp, or ex-cop background automatically has to come with the SINner Quality.

[Tzitzimine]

Its not a hard and fast rule, of course. For instance if their background and age dictate that they left the military before Crash 2.0, then I leave them with the option to disregard the need for a SIN. All things are fluid. Every character BG is done on a case by case basis. I like to try and keep it as "realistic" as possible though.

As for having your SIN wiped by a hacker. That's a pretty tall order. Not something I would likely allow at character creation. Then again this also, varies. As I said, case by case. Nothing is set in stone.

It's one of those things I keep in mind with players and when I draw the line is when it seems a player is trying to use his background as a "excuse to roll lots of dice [at] character creation".

[Fortune]

Fair enough.

[nezumi]

God forbid someone "lose" their rifle. It does happen but since Afghanistan there are very stiff penalties attached to it up and including prison time. Often there are wankers who think it is cool to take casings home with them, but then again we police even the brass. Just common sense which should be a habit.

Yeah, but keep in mind, Britain really doesn't have much respect for that whole 'right to self defense' or 'ability to overthrow a fascist government' we have here on the other side of the pond. In fact, if memory serves, the British government currently has to borrow guns from other nations. Britain isn't really my first choice for comparison against the US, where some military weapons actually can be legally owned, and semi-automatic versions of military weapons can be bought fairly cheap.

[apollo124]

I know when I was in the U.S. Navy, whenever we were issued a weapon, they kept a real close eye on what happened to the gun itself, had to police up and turn in all expended brass, and account for every single round of ammo before we were allowed to leave the firing range, or go home at the end of the day. Granted, the Army would probably be a lot different, much less the armies of 50+ years into the future, but I can imagine that they would also keep a sharp eye out for restricted/illegal weapons. After all, when the local Stuffer Shack gets a Panther assault cannon-sized hole blasted into it, aren't the authorities going to question the military first to see if they have some missing ordnance?

[Wanderer]

Well, this whole issue is why I´ve got a problem with how many implants are forbidden in the 4th Edition and that the rules say you just can´t have a fake license for F gear.

With military armaments and other gear it´s simple - you can use the alpha combat gun while on the job, but you may not keep it when you go home or retire. But how dos that work for ware? Is a SpecFor soldier not allowed to leave the base on off hours or during vacation? If he is, why can´t I have a fake SIN that says I´m a SpecFor soldier and I´m on vacation? This makes no sense, unless no military/corp/sec personal with F ware ever leaves extraterritorial soil.

In previous editions, cortex bombs where illegal ware and that was about it. Prety much everything else was legal, security or military and licenses could be bought.

Exactly, this is is the related issue that I'd want to bring out. Since it seems we pretty much all agree it makes sense for a ex-soldier, ex-corp, or ex-cop, to have legal permission to keep ware and magical abilities they got on the job, and no sense for the employer to strip them away at honorable discharge, no matter how it's restricted to civilians. Forbidden becomes a meaningless category for ware. If such characters can have it, it follows that any character with such a background and the SINner Quality ought ot be allowed to own stuff like Titanium Bones and Suprathyroid Gland legally. There can be no other way for the State and the Corps to record such status, than by using the appropriate licence attached to the person's SIN. It also follows that, since a fake SIN and licence are as good as genuine unless they are breached, it should always be possible to have fake licences that legalize F ware. It follows, F category for ware is meaningless and all ware should be either Restricted or legal.

It's a little houserule born out of common sense (heck, it ought to be an errata) that would give the SINner Quality and fake SIN/licences a bit more positive value (since it would allow characters with nominally F ware the freedom to travel without fearing legal harassment).

I would also point out that given the average level of low-level endemic warfare in the SR setting, it stands to reason that there ought ot be no shortage of ex-soldiers, -mercs, -cops, -corpops, so such characters should be fairly common in the runner population, either genuine or fake.

[MK Ultra]

I know when I was in the U.S. Navy, whenever we were issued a weapon, they kept a real close eye on what happened to the gun itself, had to police up and turn in all expended brass, and account for every single round of ammo before we were allowed to leave the firing range, or go home at the end of the day.

Same thing in germany.

[deek]

I reread through this thread...and to me it looks like the point of the OP was trying to find a way (or have the discussion) to keep illegal/forbidden items after chargen...legally.

The only way I see this happening if that PC continues to work for the corp/military...maybe leading a double-life, or perhaps having a campaign that is set in the military/corp.

As far as I am concerned, once the players finish their characters and are on the streets, they should have fake licenses and SINs and basically avoid run-ins with the law. They shouldn't concern themselves about their cyberware or magic...and if its okay for them to use it...they should concern themselves with not getting caught and being able to run and hide effectively if anyone comes snooping around.

[Spike]

Its not a hard and fast rule, of course. For instance if their background and age dictate that they left the military before Crash 2.0, then I leave them with the option to disregard the need for a SIN. All things are fluid. Every character BG is done on a case by case basis. I like to try and keep it as "realistic" as possible though.

As for having your SIN wiped by a hacker. That's a pretty tall order. Not something I would likely allow at character creation. Then again this also, varies. As I said, case by case. Nothing is set in stone.

It's one of those things I keep in mind with players and when I draw the line is when it seems a player is trying to use his background as a "excuse to roll lots of dice [at] character creation".

While I agree that it SHOULD be a tall order, it is a long assumed given that a significant percentage of Shadowrunners (Anyone not playing a barrens rat...) at some point had a sin and wiped it, sort of a rite of passage to become a Shadowrunner. Thus we can assume that it really isn't that hard to accomplish.

Now, anyone tries to use a background as an excuse to get away with stuff other players don't get is a seperate issue from just handing out the Sinner quality to anyone who wrote 'ex military' somewhere on their sheet.... or having regular lonestar visits to investigate them even when they DIDN'T do anything (because some one in the city happened to use an assualt rifle in a crime, as you suggested...)

that's harrassment. ANd the way you presented it: Its harrassment for the crime of coming up with a backstory.

But we may have miscommunicated in there somewhere, so I'll let it drop, no harm no foul.

[Tzitzimine]

... Forbidden becomes a meaningless category for ware. If such characters can have it, it follows that any character with such a background and the SINner Quality ought ot be allowed to own stuff like Titanium Bones and Suprathyroid Gland legally. There can be no other way for the State and the Corps to record such status, than by using the appropriate licence attached to the person's SIN. It also follows that, since a fake SIN and licence are as good as genuine unless they are breached, it should always be possible to have fake licences that legalize F ware. It follows, F category for ware is meaningless and all ware should be either Restricted or legal.

Most items that are "F" are that way for a reason. Voice Modulator, Retinal Duplication, Cranial Bombs, etc.. In these cases the Military/Corp that gave them to you would remove them since they were never "legally" acquired, just operationally "sanctioned" by the military/corp. The cranial bomb may be the exception (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) Everything else would be handled on a case by case basis but most likely be removed as a normal part of leaving the organization. Just because the govt allows it's spies to use Retinal Duplication while on mission behind enemy lines, doesn't mean it's going to let you go back into civilian life with them.

.... or having regular lonestar visits to investigate them even when they DIDN'T do anything (because some one in the city happened to use an assualt rifle in a crime, as you suggested...)

that's harrassment. ANd the way you presented it: Its harrassment for the crime of coming up with a backstory.

But we may have miscommunicated in there somewhere, so I'll let it drop, no harm no foul.

I think it was a miscommunication. I wouldn't target someone inadvertently every session because a panther assault cannon was used somewhere in the city. But if Lonestar records show the owner of a panther assault cannon lives 1 block away from the crime scene, you can wager they will at least look in on it. Is it harrassment? Maybe. Is it justified? Definitely. You just down't own a panther assault canon legally without SOME hassle coming with it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Also, I wouldn't make it a very difficult thing, but I'd want them to roleplay it out since it's a pretty important part of being a Shadowrunner as you said.

[Wanderer]

I reread through this thread...and to me it looks like the point of the OP was trying to find a way (or have the discussion) to keep illegal/forbidden items after chargen...legally.

The only way I see this happening if that PC continues to work for the corp/military...maybe leading a double-life, or perhaps having a campaign that is set in the military/corp.

As far as I am concerned, once the players finish their characters and are on the streets, they should have fake licenses and SINs and basically avoid run-ins with the law. They shouldn't concern themselves about their cyberware or magic...and if its okay for them to use it...they should concern themselves with not getting caught and being able to run and hide effectively if anyone comes snooping around.

I fear there may be a misunderstanding here. My concern is not to find a clever loophole to escape the legal consequences of using security/military-level stuff to perform crimes. My concern is challenging the IMO unreasonable effects of giving the Forbidden classification to stuff (ware and magic) which is integral to the character, and it may be perfectly reasonable and legitimate for them to own, out of some fairly common background types. Or a clever fake of the same, as long as it's not blown.

The issue is not that such characters should escape scot-free if they are caught using their cyberspurs to mow down a score of corp sec guards. The issue is that they should not get legal harassment if their augmentations show up at a police check or when they are boarding a plane, under a valid SIN. The Forbidden category is A-OK for stuff like weapons and explosives, but it's silly for ware and magic. Titanium Bones and Suprathyroid glands should not make pariahs of ex-soldiers or ex-cops.

If you wonder how to manage this in game terms, no item that is integral to characters (like ware or magic) should be Forbidden, they should be either Restricted or Legal, and there should be a Quality (with SINner as a prerequisite) which represents having the appropriate background, and gives access to genuine licences for such Restricted integral abilities or augmentations.

[Spike]

The interesting thing about most legal systems, including the US system, is that it is extemely unlikely for anything to be truly 'forbidden', with no recourse for permissions.

Even the worst illegal drugs, with no benefitial side effects (meth, for example) can be legally owned. Police forces, for example may legally possess them as evidence, or as samples for testing, for display samples to show schoolchildren what drugs look like. Civilian laboratories may possess samples as references for testing as well, or for use in expirements (on animals typically) for research.

As a civilian I can get a liscence for a fully automatic heavy machine gun. Its a pain in the ass, and expensive as hell, but possible. I can even buy a fully operational tank. The upper limits on such equipment is money. While it is theoretically possible to buy a license for a fully armed fighter jet, very very few private citizens can even afford one, making the entire exercise (of inquiring about a license) moot.

Probably one of the few devices that would truly be Forbidden would be WMDs, we don't even allow freindly foriegn governments access to those, and if you take all the relevant treaties into consideration technically its even illegal for OUR government to own some/most of these items.

[Nefacio]

Imo will be really complicate to deal with such a background, cause lets for instance suppose the players got those ware implants when in the force, ofc no enterprise or goverment will expend money on surgery to remove them after the time served, but they will KNOW and the player will be registered in some data that he posses illegal stuffs in his body or knows illegal spells so he is kind of screw by being registered somewhere.

Unless u want to have that background for some particular reason, Imao is much more convenient for a player to aquire those implants/spells on the black market, afterall, what runner would likle to be registered from the very beginning ? xd

[ICPick]

Now, anyone tries to use a background as an excuse to get away with stuff other players don't get is a seperate issue from just handing out the Sinner quality to anyone who wrote 'ex military' somewhere on their sheet.... or having regular lonestar visits to investigate them even when they DIDN'T do anything (because some one in the city happened to use an assualt rifle in a crime, as you suggested...)

that's harrassment. ANd the way you presented it: Its harrassment for the crime of coming up with a backstory.

Actually as a matter of law in the United States, If you have a class 3 license (allowing multiple restricted items) or a class 3 stamp (allowing one item for each stamp) you have to sign permission for the BATF to be able to show up at your doorstep at any time, requiring you to produce the item(s) for inspection. This is mainly to make sure that you haven't given it to someone else.

[Spike]

Sure. But if you don't buy the SINNER quality, then it is assumed, in CANON that you've since erased your prior legal existance, if you had one. Which means that the BATF WON"T be showing up on your doorstep, because you don't legally exist (and if you are foolish enough to get a fake SIN with legal licenses for your illegal gear then you've got issues....).


Not at the start of the game, anyway.

Of course, having any legal authority look closely into your background would, yes, probably undo all that, but then we can agree if this is happening in game (particularly if you are in custody) that the game is probably, essentially, over at that point anyway. Roll a new character, this one is Phucked.

[Wanderer]

Imo will be really complicate to deal with such a background, cause lets for instance suppose the players got those ware implants when in the force, ofc no enterprise or goverment will expend money on surgery to remove them after the time served, but they will KNOW and the player will be registered in some data that he posses illegal stuffs in his body or knows illegal spells so he is kind of screw by being registered somewhere.

Unless u want to have that background for some particular reason, Imao is much more convenient for a player to aquire those implants/spells on the black market, afterall, what runner would likle to be registered from the very beginning ? xd

Well, having that kind of background (just like the SINner QUality) is only really a problem if you screw up with your runner illegal activities and let around evidence linking them to you, or, God forbid, you let yourself be captured. Otherwise, yeah, they know you know restricted spells or adept powers, or own restricted 'ware, like thousands and thousands of other outstanding citizens. What are they going to do ? Bust down the door of every elite veteran in the country ? On what evidence ? Even in the UCAS and CAS, the Bill of Rights remains in place, and differently from owning RL Class III weapons or explosives, it's extremely unlikely they can get veterans to sign lifelong waiving of their consititutional rights on account of owning or knowning restricted cyberware, bioware, spells, or adept powers.

Therefore, having such a background is only a problem if you screw up your runs or do not cover your tracks. If the meanwhile, when you are doing legal activities, you can bask in the certainety that you are safe from legal harassment for being the Six Million Nuyen (Wo)Man. Although, I gladly concede that, if we strip away this awful sillinness of 'ware and magic being Forbidden sometimes, a high-level Fake SIN with all the relevant permits for your augmentations or wiz will be as good as the genuine thing.

[suppenhuhn]

I handle magicians and adepts licensing like lawyers or physicians ie they are not allowed to use their forbidden powers, nothing else works really as you can neither tell what they're capable off nor remove a spell or power.
For cyberware i have it deactivated when the chars left the mil/gov/corp and rule that its only forbidden to have reactivated it later (what the chars have done ofc). For bonelacing, which ofc can't be deactivated, i just changed the code to R which i think is ok since the bioware equivalent isn't even restricted.

[kzt]

My question for you though is how much are they willing to pay to make sure you don't bring it home? In previous wars, they didn't even bother checking the rucksacks and trunks military folk brought back with them, so quite a few guns disappeared. Now from what I understand they take at least a cursory glance, but they aren't checking for false bottoms or anything.

Losing an automatic weapon is a hugely serious issue for the officer commanding. You get to make a phone call to the Secretary of Defence's office and explain how this came about. Followed by CID and a bunch of very senior officers dropping in to talk about it to you and all the troops who might be involved. And I'm told that before leaving Kuwait, US Customs does a pretty complete and exhaustive search of gear. You might make it through, but it's a very possible that you won't. The chance of going to jail for 10 years just isn't worth it to most people.

[Siege]

Same thing in germany.

Absolutely. The Army is very intense about maintaining accountability of weapons systems. This is not to say weapons couldn't disappear and not to say that they don't, but it isn't by any stretch a common occurence. There was a case where the Army actually realized it was missing a weapon before realizing it was missing a Soldier.

Leaving Iraq and passing through Kuwait, your luggage will be inspected at least twice. First, by military police or "customs agents" - personnel who have been given a crash-course in screening and a list of authorized and prohibited items. This is the idiot check - we look for the obvious stuff; the stuff someone might have legitimately forgotten about or was too terminally stupid to hide.

The second check is performed by military police and "professionals" - people who do gear shakedowns for a living. When you hit Kuwait, odds are your gear will be checked again by Navy Customs - these are the pros and you have to be very, very good or lucky to sneak anything past them.

And everything you think you'll carry through will be screened - a civilian contractor will handle _everything_ in your bag at least once as your gear is emptied out, sorted and then repacked after the initial bags are inspected.

They do this for a number of reasons - weapons, issued as well as captured. "Looting" - the infamous golden faucets, for example. And so on. People are always trying to take something back - captured AKs, a camel and so on. I'm not joking about the camel.

-Siege

[Siege]

Not that you're counting...

My question for you though is how much are they willing to pay to make sure you don't bring it home? In previous wars, they didn't even bother checking the rucksacks and trunks military folk brought back with them, so quite a few guns disappeared. Now from what I understand they take at least a cursory glance, but they aren't checking for false bottoms or anything. If you happened to take out the receiver of your gun and claim it broken, I don't think the military would other itself enough to determine for sure (and now you pop that sucker in an AR-15 and you're good to go). It's a question of cost. The cost of having your sarge stop you on the way out the door and ask you about the four feet of steel under your coat is less than the cost of loosing an M-16. The cost of checking in your trunk is also less than the cost of an M-16. The cost of unwrapping each package, dumping out your pockets and so on probably just about breaks even with the cost of a receiver. If it cost the same or more to remove the smartlink as it does to leave it in and give you a license for it, they'd be a lot more likely to say screw it and give you a license for it.

Actually, quite a bit. See my post above for a quick overview of the "inspection" process.

I'm not in a combat unit, so I couldn't tell you how the Army would account for "field loss gear." There is, however, a huge amount of paperwork that is supposed to follow a weapon around, which may or may not be followed as stringently as it should be. I'll have to pick my supply NCO's brain on the subject - I'm actually kinda curious to see how that would work.

Anything that you have been issued but can't produce when so required results in a "statement of charges" - the Army (in this case) bills you and collects the money directly from your paycheck. This applies to any mundane gear - the really important stuff, usually classed as "sensitive items" are the toys that get periodically inventoried and accounted for like pro-masks or firearms. Lose your weapon and a statement of charges will be the least of your worries.

The system is far from perfect, but enlightened self-interest usually keeps the pressure on - a serious SNAFU on inventory hand receipts can get an entire chain of command "relieved for cause" which is usually enough to make any small quantity of weapons disappearing as entirely too risky for precious little reward.

-Siege

P.S. I haven't been to Afghanistan yet, but Iraq is very much a battle waged on a number of fronts, not the least of which being media and public opinion which may account for the higher scrutiny.

[Chrome Tiger]

That even though the military is known for contracting out to the lowest bidder, they are going to have a strong interest in keeping their gear to themselves. If someone had cyberweapons installed into their arm, I imagine they would simply leave the arm (unless it was something exotic) and keep the weaponry portion. If the cyber itself was 'unique' they would probably replace it with something more common.

If a player had an MOS that required access/use of specialized equipment and data, that equipment would be watched VERY closely. I can very easily imagine that anything that should not be on the streets would have a hard time getting out of the military with the character. Anything that would potentially be a problem that could not be removed would definitely be accompanied with a little note to show the authorities saying that said person is authorized to have it. Of course, carrying a SIN other than the one attached to the serial number of that milspec cyberarm could raise an eyebrow or two.

Hell, I even had training books that I had to account for and return when leaving A and C school in the Navy. We got inspected walking into and out of the school buildings, frisked, everything. No tape players, radios, cameras, digital watches, etc.

[MK Ultra]

Sounds like a cool story! I guess they didn´t try to smuggle the camel out in their backpack (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Siege]

Not so much cool as...icky. The idiots shoved the poor thing into a shipping connex with all the personal gear. Said connex can take several months to be shipped from Point A to Point B. The result was...gamey, or so I'm told.

Unfortunately, my MOS isn't that spiffy, so I can't speak to that. I do know that an idiot can and will lose just about anything - you'd be surprised what you can find lying around. That's how I came on my Surefire Scout weaponlight. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

-Siege

[Chrome Tiger]

Unfortunately, my MOS isn't that spiffy, so I can't speak to that. I do know that an idiot can and will lose just about anything - you'd be surprised what you can find lying around. That's how I came on my Surefire Scout weaponlight. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Mmmm, nice light. I am jealous, lucky bastard! I have a nifty Insight M3 though, sadly, it has seen more action under the hood of my car than it has mounted on the AR.

But yeah, good point, the military is not 100% foolproof and who knows what kind of goodness can be had for the person at the right place at the right time, planned or accidental.

[hyzmarca]

Most items that are "F" are that way for a reason. Voice Modulator, Retinal Duplication, Cranial Bombs, etc.. In these cases the Military/Corp that gave them to you would remove them since they were never "legally" acquired, just operationally "sanctioned" by the military/corp. The cranial bomb may be the exception (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) Everything else would be handled on a case by case basis but most likely be removed as a normal part of leaving the organization. Just because the govt allows it's spies to use Retinal Duplication while on mission behind enemy lines, doesn't mean it's going to let you go back into civilian life with them.

Given that voice modulators, retinal duplicators, and all sorts of other forbidden equipment have legal civilian uses, it is hard to see how much of it can be forbidden. 'Ware with undeniable legitimate civilian uses shouldn't even be restricted, much less forbidden. That's just common sense. The idea that a person should be required to get a license just because he wants to be able to lift a little more weight is absurd (particularly if that person if physically weak) and the idea that a person with osteoporosis can't legally get bone lacing is just sad. Restrictions on cyberlimb enhancements are likewise silly, as is restricting or forbidding 'ware that serves no other function than limiting injury, particularly the Pain Editor which would be extremely useful for people who suffer from chronic pain debilitating.