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> Cyberware Suites, quarry about home made suites
Mäx
post Feb 29 2008, 10:53 AM
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What i would wnat to know is have any of you fellow dumpshocker come up with any cyber suites of your of for your games and if yes then hat kind of suites.
Or have you made up stats for those suites only mentioned in AUG (like Renraku Digital Maestro,SpIn-X Olympian or Mitsuhama Spidersuite)

I'm asking becouse the selection in AUG is so limited, especially for starting characters. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)


edit: Damn you moonhawk (IMG:style_emoticons/default/embarrassed.gif) ,hopefully some friendly mod can change it to query or what ever the plurar of that would be.
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Angier
post Feb 29 2008, 11:10 AM
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I'd say: Look at the cyberware adversaries feature in the BBB and make them into suites?
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Ed_209a
post Feb 29 2008, 01:35 PM
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My current GM had an interesting opinion on why so few of the cyber suites in AUG were really 'Runner friendly.

He said that shadowrunners are really a tiny market in the big scheme, and suites are terribly expensive to design. No one is going to take that much time and effort time to design a product for a market of only a few thousand customers.

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Synner
post Feb 29 2008, 01:42 PM
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Actually that's pretty much what Augmentation says.
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ArkonC
post Feb 29 2008, 02:07 PM
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So how would one go about making one's own?
Log+Cybertech, extended test, 1 per day or week, threshold 4+1 per item for basic, 8+2 for alpha and so on?
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KCKitsune
post Feb 29 2008, 02:22 PM
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QUOTE (Ed_209a @ Feb 29 2008, 08:35 AM) *
My current GM had an interesting opinion on why so few of the cyber suites in AUG were really 'Runner friendly.

He said that shadowrunners are really a tiny market in the big scheme, and suites are terribly expensive to design. No one is going to take that much time and effort time to design a product for a market of only a few thousand customers.


Why wouldn't there be a suite with only eyes and ears? I mean that market would be for everyone. Outdoors men, Joe Slot, accident victims, If you're fixing/upgrading your senses, those two areas would be the most popular.
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Fortune
post Feb 29 2008, 02:29 PM
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QUOTE (ArkonC)
So how would one go about making one's own?


You wouldn't. These are Corp produced using tried and true methods and synergistic parts for wide and legitimate markets.
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Fortune
post Feb 29 2008, 02:40 PM
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I would think there would be a lot of Suites including any number of different combinations of commlink, sim module, datajack, ears, eyes, attention co-processor, math SPU, and any other useful corporate-type stuff.

Environmental blue collor work packages would also be big.
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ArkonC
post Feb 29 2008, 02:46 PM
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QUOTE (Fortune @ Feb 29 2008, 03:29 PM) *
You wouldn't. These are Corp produced using tried and true methods and synergistic parts for wide and legitimate markets.

All right then, let's assume I'm a scientist for the corp, how would I go about making one?
Log+Cybertech, extended test, 1 per day or week, threshold 4+1 per item for basic, 8+2 for alpha and so on?
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Tycho
post Feb 29 2008, 02:54 PM
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Ares Rig Commander:
- Commlink
- Sim Modul (Hot Sim)
- Orientation System
- Math SPU
- Control Rig
- Datenbuchse
- Reaction Enhancer 2

for all the Professional Vehicle Controllers in the Sixth World
(also available in Gold (Alpha) and Platinum (Beta) Edition)

cya
Tycho
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Mäx
post Feb 29 2008, 03:01 PM
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QUOTE (Ed_209a @ Feb 29 2008, 03:35 PM) *
My current GM had an interesting opinion on why so few of the cyber suites in AUG were really 'Runner friendly.

He said that shadowrunners are really a tiny market in the big scheme, and suites are terribly expensive to design. No one is going to take that much time and effort time to design a product for a market of only a few thousand customers.


i didn't ask for suites desingned for runners(AUG explains pretty well why there aren't any) , many suites desingned for corporate world would prabably be useful for many kind of runners.
i for expample got Shiawase ExecutiveSuite Line for my trigger/hacker character

Tycho: what is Datenbuchse and what would be the Availability and cost (in nuyen and essence) for that suite
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Moon-Hawk
post Feb 29 2008, 03:13 PM
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First off, a quick /agree to everyone saying that these need to have mass market appeal. As I understand it, a cyberware suite can be though of as a single piece of 'ware which has the combined effects of 'bits of ware X, Y, and Z, with a cost (both essence and financial) of 0.9*(X+Y+Z). So it requires the same amount of R&D as any other bit of 'ware, so a character can't design one any more than they can design any other brand new bit of 'ware.

As for players (and GMs) designing them, there is obviously a strong temptation (on both sides of the table, don't forget GMs here) to simply put together all the 'ware you want for whatever character, call it a suite, and slap that sweet, sweet suite discount on it. In order to curb this, both for my players and myself, I have a rule. Put your suite together, and give a short writeup on what's in it, what it's for (something with at least moderate-market appeal), why it includes what it does, and perhaps why certain bits of 'ware aren't in it. You might claim this suite exists for a certain job so that you can justify it's existence because you want it for your character, but logic may demand that a suite designed for the expressed purpose include a bit of 'ware that your runner has no personal desire for.

I'm not talking about a lot of work here, by "short writeup" I mean about the length of the cyberware suite entries in Aug. If someone is willing to put that small amount of enrichment into my Shadowrun setting, and is willing to put that small amount of effort into thinking about the 6th world, they can have the suite discount. If they're not able to come up with a coherent writeup, then it was probably a munchy mish-mash of 'ware to begin with. Even if there are notes of power-gaming in there, as long as they've thought about it enough to come up with a logical justification for it, I'm perfectly happy giving the discount. The player has gained their small advantage (and feels really great about their massive victory), I realize that it's not a game-damaging difference, and that my players are involved and thinking about the game and my gameworld just got a tiny bit richer. It's win-win.

p.s. Regarding thread title: Query - a question. Quarry - an open mine where rocks or minerals are mined. Also, a person or animal who is being hunted.
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Moon-Hawk
post Feb 29 2008, 03:14 PM
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QUOTE (Mäx @ Feb 29 2008, 10:01 AM) *
Tycho: what is Datenbuchse and what would be the Availability and cost (in nuyen and essence) for that suite

I'm guessing datajack.
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KCKitsune
post Feb 29 2008, 03:20 PM
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QUOTE (Moon-Hawk @ Feb 29 2008, 10:13 AM) *
...snip... Even if there are notes of power-gaming in there, as long as they've thought about it enough to come up with a logical justification for it, I'm perfectly happy giving the discount. The player has gained their small advantage (and feels really great about their massive victory), I realize that it's not a game-damaging difference, and that my players are involved and thinking about the game and my gameworld just got a tiny bit richer. It's win-win.


Could you post some of your suites here please?
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Tycho
post Feb 29 2008, 03:20 PM
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QUOTE (Moon-Hawk @ Feb 29 2008, 11:14 AM) *
I'm guessing datajack.



yes, sorry left the german name...

don't have the costs right here, i have created it for my Rigger
Cost and Essence are according to Aug. ( 0,9*Cost and 0,9* Essence)

it depents a bit on what exactly you want to have:

with Hotsim the Availability is 12F (which makes it to a military only product)
without Hotsim the Availability is 10R (I think that is right for Security Personal an Professional Pilots/Drivers)

Essence and Cost(Military Version/Hotsim in brackets):
Standart Edition:
1,76 Essence
36225 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) (38925 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) )

Gold Edition:
1,37 Essence
72450 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) (77850 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) )

Platinum Edition:
1,17 Essence
144900 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) (155700 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) )


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Crisp
post Feb 29 2008, 03:37 PM
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QUOTE (Fortune @ Feb 29 2008, 02:40 PM) *
I would think there would be a lot of Suites including any number of different combinations of commlink, sim module, datajack, ears, eyes, attention co-processor, math SPU, and any other useful corporate-type stuff.


First off I'd like to agree with this. We already have several examples in the book: Shiawase Exec, SK non-military Cyberlogician and even the SenseSation (said to be used by negotiators, etc). There would probably be lots of them like this. Things like eyes/ears, datajacks and commlinks are useful to nearly everyone.

One suite that I had to design after I read someone's comment about it here (sorry, don't remember who) is the "Cyberbody" suite. Basically, just what it says:

Cyberskull
Cybertorso
2 Cyberarms
2 Cyberlegs

Available in synthetic or obvious models, several grades.

Marketed mostly to transhumanist, it was designed by transhuman-friendly EVO corp.

Note that with the 10% Essence discount you can have this at chargen--YAY! (There is the issue of the skull's availability but I didn't see any hard rules on the availability of a cybersuite--if I missed it, where is it?--so I can set it at 12 or less).

Haven't designed any others yet.
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Fortune
post Feb 29 2008, 03:38 PM
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QUOTE (ArkonC @ Mar 1 2008, 01:46 AM) *
All right then, let's assume I'm a scientist for the corp, how would I go about making one?
Log+Cybertech, extended test, 1 per day or week, threshold 4+1 per item for basic, 8+2 for alpha and so on?

To design the blueprints for a Suite (which is basically what I think we are talking about), I would think would be something akin to Logic + Cybertech 40 (1 week). These don't come out of nowhere. They take quite a deal of study and teams of scientists to design.

To actually manufacture an already blueprinted design would at the very least take a facility and team of worker dudes.
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Critias
post Feb 29 2008, 03:42 PM
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QUOTE (Moon-Hawk @ Feb 29 2008, 10:13 AM) *
p.s. Regarding thread title: Query - a question. Quarry - an open mine where rocks or minerals are mined. Also, a person or animal who is being hunted.

So, he's hunting for answers! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

The first step to cooking up your own "suite" has nothing to do with Logic tests or dice rolls or any math at all, really. The first step is talking to your GM, and saying "this is a bunch of stuff that I think ________ percentage of the population would be willing to buy, and this is why."

If you want to get the benefits of a fast food value meal by way of essence and nuyen cost, you've got to have a fast food value meal mass appeal going on.
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Moon-Hawk
post Feb 29 2008, 04:00 PM
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QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Feb 29 2008, 10:20 AM) *
Could you post some of your suites here please?

Just as soon as a player comes up with a suite they can actually justify. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
Seriously though, that's my rule. It hasn't actually seen a lot of use. That's largely because my main group was already going when Aug came out, that campaign ended, and we haven't started a new one yet. I would actually be willing to let a player ret-con some of their 'ware into a suite, since Aug hadn't been out when they'd made their characters, but there was really only one character who had a cyberware package that lent itself to that, and he didn't want to bother, as he only played occasionally anyway.

I find my rule to be more useful in the negative, than the positive. As in, I've caught myself with it many times, realizing that I was trying to make a suite to suit my purposes, even though it made no logical sense for it to exist other than my singular purpose.
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Moon-Hawk
post Feb 29 2008, 04:12 PM
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QUOTE (Crisp @ Feb 29 2008, 10:37 AM) *
One suite that I had to design after I read someone's comment about it here (sorry, don't remember who) is the "Cyberbody" suite. Basically, just what it says:

Cyberskull
Cybertorso
2 Cyberarms
2 Cyberlegs

Available in synthetic or obvious models, several grades.

Marketed mostly to transhumanist, it was designed by transhuman-friendly EVO corp.

Note that with the 10% Essence discount you can have this at chargen--YAY! (There is the issue of the skull's availability but I didn't see any hard rules on the availability of a cybersuite--if I missed it, where is it?--so I can set it at 12 or less).


I agree. That's a good example of something there might actually be a market for. However, like I was saying about why certain 'ware isn't in a suite, I would say that you need to add a bit more to it. For example, I just don't see a transhumanist getting a full cyberbody and not getting cybereyes, I think it should be part of the suite.

Since everyone interprets the cyberlimb attribute rules differently (as in, "wait, do I need to upgrade my head-strength? What about my torso-agility?") that makes it hard to come up with a version that anyone can use. And to make it attractive you really have to include at least a little limb-enhancement, or else what's the sales pitch? "Now, for only 120,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) , you too can be completely average!" Well, I guess that is an improvement for a lot of people, but you really need to get those stats up to 5's or so to be really attractive. Fortunately, limb enhancements are dirt-cheap.

So depending on how you interpret cyberlimb attributes things will vary a bit, but you can actually get a full synthetic cyberbody with eyes (with low-light, flare comp, and a point of vision enhancement, because you want your customers to experience the improvement as much as possible, and we're very visual creatures), and ears, with an internal commlink and datajack (using capacity instead of essence, but you've got a lot of electronics and you need something to manage it all, and you'll need the datajack to run the knowsofts to properly maintain yourself at a basic level) for under 6 (5.985 by my count) essence at standard grade and under 120,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) , exact price depending on how you interpret the limb enhancements to get yourself up to 5's. For a "perfect" body. There's a market for that. But it's not really the runner market. At least not at standard grade. Who knows how many people would go for that, but it is doable, and odds are a corporation would develop and try to market it. Maybe they'd sell a bunch, maybe only a few before abandoning the project, but it's a tempting enough idea to justify it's existence. And of course it could come in alpha and beta grades, but I would suggest that the alpha and beta versions probably come with better cybereyes and slightly higher attributes as standard features.

Now I haven't quite finished all the details, and I haven't done the clever write-up, and I won't ever use it until I do. That's my rule. But I will just as soon as I need a cool, different, non-combat NPC.

And don't worry about the availability, that only applies to PC chargen and black market, not legal purchases. It might well be lower, I could believe that the market for a full body replacement could actually be larger than the market for people who just want a replacement skull. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
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post Feb 29 2008, 04:21 PM
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Moon-Hawk
post Feb 29 2008, 04:25 PM
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Nice. The attention co-processor was a particularly thoughtful addition.
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Ryu
post Feb 29 2008, 04:45 PM
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Integration is easy and economically more feasible if the parts lend themselves to integration. Superior product values are a requirement in many small, high price markets. So I do see suites tailored to high-end bodyguards, or high-end Secret Service operatives; with corresponding difficulty to get them of course.

I have more problems with suites that combine very different ware for one purpose, than with char-specific suites that are actually sensible from the contents. A small rebate for cyberware is very appropiate anyway.
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Feshy
post Feb 29 2008, 04:57 PM
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QUOTE (Moon-Hawk @ Feb 29 2008, 11:12 AM) *
I agree. That's a good example of something there might actually be a market for. However, like I was saying about why certain 'ware isn't in a suite, I would say that you need to add a bit more to it. For example, I just don't see a transhumanist getting a full cyberbody and not getting cybereyes, I think it should be part of the suite.

Since everyone interprets the cyberlimb attribute rules differently (as in, "wait, do I need to upgrade my head-strength? What about my torso-agility?") that makes it hard to come up with a version that anyone can use. And to make it attractive you really have to include at least a little limb-enhancement, or else what's the sales pitch? "Now, for only 120,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) , you too can be completely average!" Well, I guess that is an improvement for a lot of people, but you really need to get those stats up to 5's or so to be really attractive. Fortunately, limb enhancements are dirt-cheap.

So depending on how you interpret cyberlimb attributes things will vary a bit, but you can actually get a full synthetic cyberbody with eyes (with low-light, flare comp, and a point of vision enhancement, because you want your customers to experience the improvement as much as possible, and we're very visual creatures), and ears, with an internal commlink and datajack (using capacity instead of essence, but you've got a lot of electronics and you need something to manage it all, and you'll need the datajack to run the knowsofts to properly maintain yourself at a basic level) for under 6 (5.985 by my count) essence at standard grade and under 120,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) , exact price depending on how you interpret the limb enhancements to get yourself up to 5's. For a "perfect" body. There's a market for that. But it's not really the runner market. At least not at standard grade. Who knows how many people would go for that, but it is doable, and odds are a corporation would develop and try to market it. Maybe they'd sell a bunch, maybe only a few before abandoning the project, but it's a tempting enough idea to justify it's existence. And of course it could come in alpha and beta grades, but I would suggest that the alpha and beta versions probably come with better cybereyes and slightly higher attributes as standard features.

Now I haven't quite finished all the details, and I haven't done the clever write-up, and I won't ever use it until I do. That's my rule. But I will just as soon as I need a cool, different, non-combat NPC.

And don't worry about the availability, that only applies to PC chargen and black market, not legal purchases. It might well be lower, I could believe that the market for a full body replacement could actually be larger than the market for people who just want a replacement skull. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)


I also made a similar suite for a character. Except, I went with a more expensive and used Customized Attributes to get the stats up. I figure if there's a market for Transhumanists (or maybe just the sickly and old) there is probably also a high end market for them as well. It also leaves the way open for some very unusual back stories. Board member retires without implementing the company changes the mafia demanded when they made a certain loan years ago, they take his wife. The lackies he hires to get her back fail, so he blows his retirement on a kick-ass body and comes after them himself...

I also ran into the problem of what to do about torso / skull enhancements. The problem is compounded with Customized Attributes, too, because the torso and skull already have very high availabilities.

I like your idea that a full body replacement market might be bigger than just a skull replacement -- I may try that with the GM and see how far I get. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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Crisp
post Feb 29 2008, 05:24 PM
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QUOTE (Feshy @ Feb 29 2008, 04:57 PM) *
I also made a similar suite for a character.

(...)

I like your idea that a full body replacement market might be bigger than just a skull replacement -- I may try that with the GM and see how far I get. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)


If you posted something about it here it might well be you I got the idea from, I really can't recall.

And I agree that the market for full-body mods would probably be larger than for single cyberskulls.


@Moon-Hawk: what you mention about cybereyes and ears is ture. If I were to get this for a PC of mine I really don't see myself not getting cybereyes/ears to go along with it. But in the suite I went for the "bare bones" approach. Also, I think the eyes and ears, at least if high-grade would push the basic-grade suit above six points of Essence--not good.

I also thought about limbs enhancements and customization, optimization, etc. I figured it was simply too much trouble trying to account for all possible variations at this stage. I decided I'd deal with that if it ever became necessary.

That said, the basic limb enhancements in the BBB I consider that they are after-market add-ons. I figure you can go to your street doc and get Agility Enhancement +3 at any time, as long as you have the capacity for it. Just like you could go and improve your arm with a built-in gyromount years after getting the arm itself. That's just how I see it, YMMV.

Customization/Optimization has, IMHO, to be set from the moment you get the arm, so that's more complicated.

As for whether cyberskulls and cybertorsos need their own stats, I think that they both need them but they are only relevant in fairly rare occasions. The only time I can think off when you're cyberskull's Strength would matter would be if you were head butting someone. It's not something that I'll be thinking too much about.

EDIT: Just had a sudden brainstorm! You could avoid a lot of trouble with your limbs by making them modular. Then you could get whatever mods you wanted for your arms. Heck, you could have a whole wardrobe filled with different limbs for different occasions: the one with the gyro is for shooting, the one with extra strength and the spurs is for melee, etc...
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