 Natural Vision after Cyberware, You don't get to keep it do you? |
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 Dec 3 2003, 07:16 PM
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#1
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Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill.  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,545 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gloomy Boise Idaho Member No.: 2,006  |
Common sense would dictate that if you are an elf, and you have your eyes replaced with cyber eyes, and no mods, then you no longer have Low Light vision. But I have failed to find a relevant reference in canon to use. I find this a lot, people have there eyes replaced, yet they still claim there natural eye benefits. Does anyone know of any canon rules that apply?
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Dec 3 2003, 07:19 PM
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#2
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,035 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Anahiem, CA Member No.: 100 |
It was in canon print back in SR2 IIRC, but I don't know about SR3. Any GM with half a brain would say they loose natural stuff if they get a cyber replacement though.
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Dec 3 2003, 07:21 PM
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#3
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,353 Joined: 5-June 02 Member No.: 2,840 |
Check the metahuman archetypes with cyberware in SR3. I think they have entries like "Cybereye (minus natural thermo vision)" for the dwarf decker, etc.
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Dec 3 2003, 07:21 PM
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#4
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,035 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Anahiem, CA Member No.: 100 |
Found it! Check out SR3, page 299.
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Dec 3 2003, 07:46 PM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 639 Joined: 22-April 02 Member No.: 2,638 |
But that's for full eye replacement. There's also retinal modification (enhancing the existing meat, instead of replacing it). Granted, with retinal mods, you don't get .5 essence worth of extra eye mods for 'free' (each retinal mod impacts essence independently), but other than that, they're essentially the same.
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Dec 3 2003, 07:48 PM
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#6
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,047 Joined: 12-November 03 From: Perilously close to the Sioux Nation. Member No.: 5,818 |
Retinal mods are just "adjustements", so they don't eliminate natural vision enhancement.
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Dec 3 2003, 07:57 PM
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#7
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,035 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Anahiem, CA Member No.: 100 |
Right.
Now here is another question... Can mages still see on the astral if they have their eyes replaced with cyber eyes? I was told no back in the day and never bothered to verify it. So now, whenever I make a mage character, I just buy retinal mods, rather than eyes with mods in them. I'm also pretty cure that a mage has to have Optical Mag, rather than Electric Mag in order to cast using that, right? |
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Dec 3 2003, 07:58 PM
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#8
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,047 Joined: 12-November 03 From: Perilously close to the Sioux Nation. Member No.: 5,818 |
The optical thingy is right.
However, since cybereyes are paid with Essence are a part of the metahuman body, they still work on the Astral. |
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Dec 3 2003, 08:00 PM
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#9
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,035 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Anahiem, CA Member No.: 100 |
So as long as you get Optical Mag put into the cybereye, you're ok? Sweet, I'll keep that in mind from now on. :)
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Dec 3 2003, 08:01 PM
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#10
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,047 Joined: 12-November 03 From: Perilously close to the Sioux Nation. Member No.: 5,818 |
Oh no, what sort of a monster have I created? :spin:
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Dec 3 2003, 08:15 PM
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#11
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
No, the mage can still have electronic magnification I'm pretty sure, because it's paid for with Essence and thus still a part of the mage's body.
~J |
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Dec 3 2003, 08:18 PM
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#12
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,035 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Anahiem, CA Member No.: 100 |
Boy, today was a good day to bring my book to work with me. SR3, page 300, under Vision Magnification
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Dec 3 2003, 08:54 PM
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#13
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Fair enough then.
I should start bringing my book around with me :) ~J Quibble: but what about magicians without cybereyes, just retinal mods? /quibble |
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Dec 3 2003, 08:57 PM
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#14
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,047 Joined: 12-November 03 From: Perilously close to the Sioux Nation. Member No.: 5,818 |
I'd say optical only.
I mean, why would it be different? |
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Dec 3 2003, 08:57 PM
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#15
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Mr. Quote-function Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,312 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Somewhere in Germany Member No.: 1,376 |
Which technically is a big inconsistancy within the rules of SR3. According to the magic rules, all cybernetic vision enhencements have been paid for with Essence and thus work with magic. Now the rules on vision magnification demand for the optical in cybereyes, although the eyes are still paid for with Essence. Can't be be due to the 0.5 of Essence free space in eyes, because otherwise IR or other cybernetic vision enhencements within that free space wouldn't work either. And to make this even worse: The optical version is only needed within cybereyes, but when using retinal modifictaion we're back to "paid for with Essence" ... Side note: Astral perception is not linked to physical sight. It's a psychic sense. Even physically blind magicians can still astrally perceive ... |
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Dec 3 2003, 09:55 PM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 777 Joined: 18-February 03 Member No.: 4,110 |
can you take ultrasound vision as a retinal mod?
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Dec 3 2003, 10:01 PM
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#17
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Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill. Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,545 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gloomy Boise Idaho Member No.: 2,006 |
Actually no. From the beginning they have always said, mages can only cast spells on what they can physically see. Not through security cameras or any other type of electronically enhanced image. They have to use optical enhancements in order for the magic to work right. So if you just had electronic mag 3 installed it would work fine. But you would not be able to cast spells while using it. The image you got would not be "live". Thanks for all those who applied, I just wanted to clarify it, and DSF'ers are the smartest people around! |
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Dec 3 2003, 10:12 PM
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#18
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
The problem is that Cybereyes themselves are "artificial". They're not physically seeing the target, they're seeing what a mechanical device senses and transmits to their brain. Thus if the "paid for with Essence" argument holds up for that, it should hold up for other forms of vision enhancement that are paid for with Essence. Such as thermographic vision, ultrasound, and even microscopic vision. Yet for some reason, vision magnification doesn't work unless it's specifically "optical," even though none of those other options have to be so.
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Dec 3 2003, 11:31 PM
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#19
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,965 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Edinburgh, Scotland Member No.: 2,032 |
Yes, it is somewhat inconsistent, but regardless it seems to imply that whatever was magically available from the original image is lost by piping it through the electronic magnification. Why there are doubble standards I don't know.
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Dec 3 2003, 11:38 PM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 334 Joined: 17-November 03 From: Texas Member No.: 5,828 |
I've just always read it to be that while the optical magnification just make the image closer, thus easier to see, the electronic magnification produces a [/I]new[I] image, and is useless to mages because it keeps them from seeing the original image. In that case you have this set.
Regular eyes, optical mag retinal mod: Sure thing, real eyes seeing a real image. Regular eyes, electronic mag retinal mod: No dice. The eyes see a false image. Cybereyes, optical: Yes again, the image is there, percieved with "paid for" sight. Cybereyes, electronic: Nope. The eyes and imaging have been payed for, but the image is still not really an image. |
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Dec 3 2003, 11:40 PM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 282 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 197 |
Strange that an image that is optically magnified then electronically processed and transmitted to the brain is somehow more "live" than an image that is electronic the whole way.
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Dec 4 2003, 12:14 AM
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#22
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Mr. Quote-function Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,312 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Somewhere in Germany Member No.: 1,376 |
Paid with Essence ...
By the letter of the rules: Wrong, since you're talking retinal mod and not cyber(replacement)eyes. Again Paid for with Essence and not less "processed" than IR or Ultrasound (which work perfectly with spellcasting under the paid with Essence rule for cybernetic enhencements)
And the cybereye itself does not process the incoming picture? Oh I see, the eye has been paid for with Essence, right?
O.k. This time we have a processed picture that is processed by another electonic device (the eyes). The eye has been paid for with Essence and the retinal mod itself would work under the canon rules. Very strange ... |
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Dec 4 2003, 01:14 AM
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#23
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,035 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Anahiem, CA Member No.: 100 |
Cochise, while what you are saying makes since in the spirit of "paid for with essence", the book had a double standard that states you must have Optical Mag to cast spells through it. If you don't like it, house rule it, but by canon, it is clear that Electrical Mag doesn't work with spell casting.
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Dec 4 2003, 01:21 AM
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#24
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
But as I nitpicked, it only specifically states that magnification in cybereyes needs to be optical. Nothing is stated about retinal modifications, in which case the paid-with-essence rule takes precedence.
~J |
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Dec 4 2003, 01:34 AM
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#25
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,035 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Anahiem, CA Member No.: 100 |
((duh, nevermind))
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