When did Charisma 1 become okay? Options

[Wynters]

I've been looking at a number of characters that have been posted on these boards and the one pretty consistent facet of them is Charisma 1.

Sure, Charisma doesn't help you directly kill stuff or help pick that maglock but it seems that people don't realise just what Charisma 1 means.

The BBB states that Charisma represents "a character's personal aura, self-image, ego, willngness to find out what people want and give it to them, and ability to recognise what she can and can't get out of people. A whiny demeanour,a me-first attitude or an inability to read body language or subtle hints are just a few traits that can give a character low Charisma."

The Attributes table defines 1 as "Weak", but it also defines it as the absolute lowest value that exists.

Charisma 1 indicates a character that is a pit of self-image negativity, selfishness, whinginess, totally blind/uncaring to the needs and desires of others and unable to communicate in any meaningful way on a social level.

Charmis 1 makes people taking a reflexive dislike to the character almost mandatory. There is no-one else in the world with less Charisma than this character. No one.

Who on earth would want to run with such people? Which contacts would develop anything but the most coldly professional relationship with such a runner? Who wouldn't turn such a thoroughly dislikable runner in for the merest hint of a reward? Who are the local police going to constantly pick on? When someone is scanning a crowd who is going to be the person standing out, the people who can blend into a social situation or the person everyone gives a wide berth to and no one ever looks at just in case he makes eye-contact first?

And that's not even exploring the "Oh man, I'm so rubbish I will never be able to make that climb/pick that lock/survive that gunfight/etc, etc." aspect of having such the lowest self-image possible.

Surely the one stat you can't afford to have at 1 is Charisma.

Thoughts?

[Earlydawn]

Shadowrunning is built around cold, professional relationships. Fixers (usually) aren't your buddy. They're your handler.

[ArkonC]

Indeed, I'd say there are more socially unadapted people amongst shadowrunners than amongst normal people...
There's only one thing I think is odd about charisma, and that is that it apperantly also deals with self-image...
I don't see why one could not be the most self-confident man, but be incredibly rude and impatient, farting all the time and that...
That would lead to Cha 1, and he would still think he's the dogs testicles...

[Larme]

The Attributes table defines 1 as "Weak", but it also defines it as the absolute lowest value that exists.

Wrong! The lowest you can get is "Uncouth." That makes you untrained for all social skills, you can't even default to them, automatic fail. At least with charisma 1, if you stakced on some situational modifiers (i.e. you're uncharismatic but you have a big gun and 5 friends) you could succeed.

Charisma 1 indicates a character that is a pit of self-image negativity, selfishness, whinginess, totally blind/uncaring to the needs and desires of others and unable to communicate in any meaningful way on a social level.

Street Samuari, anyone? Lost my soul to chrome, live for nothing but the kill, baby!

Charmis 1 makes people taking a reflexive dislike to the character almost mandatory. There is no-one else in the world with less Charisma than this character. No one.

See Uncouth. And there are plenty of people with equal charisma. They're as uncharismatic as they come, but that's not special.

Who on earth would want to run with such people? Which contacts would develop anything but the most coldly professional relationship with such a runner? Who wouldn't turn such a thoroughly dislikable runner in for the merest hint of a reward? Who are the local police going to constantly pick on? When someone is scanning a crowd who is going to be the person standing out, the people who can blend into a social situation or the person everyone gives a wide berth to and no one ever looks at just in case he makes eye-contact first?

Someone who values more than just personality would run with a charisma 1 person. If the expert sniper never talks unless you almost force him to, are you going to complain? Not as long as he's covering your ass. And charisma 1 people don't stick out like a sore thumb as you describe. It isn't some kind of magical vibe that they give off that everyone can sense. Imagine a crowded room -- there might be a charisma 1 person in there, and you could probably find them (maybe by themselves in the corner) but it's not like "OMG LOOK AT THAT GUY!" That is what you would say about a charisma 10 guy. Your attention goes *snap* right onto someone with the noticeable, vibrant presence. The lame, uncool non-presence of a charisma 1 person goes right under your radar. The except would be when the charisma 1 is trying to look nonchallant. Then, anyone who's paying attention and makes a successful perception test would notice that the guy is acting suspiciously.

Surely the one stat you can't afford to have at 1 is Charisma.

What stat you can't afford to have at 1 is totally dependent on the character you play. A straigh up combat person can get by with it. Now, it sounds to me like as GM, you would say that the character can't go outside without the police arresting him for being uncharismatic. But that's you game.

[martindv]

I've been looking at a number of characters that have been posted on these boards and the one pretty consistent facet of them is Charisma 1.

...
Surely the one stat you can't afford to have at 1 is Charisma.

Thoughts?

It may be less of a problem in SR4, but because historically Charisma doesn't matter to most games I've seen or played in for any system I can think of. So why bother? Especially if you're a min-maxer (which SR appeals strongly to).

15 years. Surely the one stat that most commonly was a 1 (and not just for trolls) because it was a "useless" stat was, in fact, Charisma. So yes, you can afford it.

[Shrike30]

There's some truth to that, but at the same time, a fixer you can't keep from getting into screaming matches with is gonna stop calling you up for work. Or start sending you on jobs he thinks will get you killed.

And runs always go smoother if you can get your crazy friend to shut the **** up while you be polite and ask "Is there a problem, officer?"

[Shrike30]

I don't see why one could not be the most self-confident man, but be incredibly rude and impatient, farting all the time and that...
That would lead to Cha 1, and he would still think he's the dogs testicles...

That might better be replicated by having Uncouth and a decent Charisma. I've got a dispatcher like that (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Moon-Hawk]

...A whiny demeanour,a me-first attitude or an inability to read body language or subtle hints are just a few traits that can give a character low Charisma."...

... selfishness, whinginess, totally blind/uncaring to the needs and desires of others and unable to communicate in any meaningful way on a social level.....

Assuming whinginess describes someone who whines. As an example: Jayne Cobb, from Firefly. He does tend to whine. He is terribly selfish. He either misses subtle social cues or just doesn't care. Yet he is an interesting character, functions as part of a team, and helps to tell an interesting story. His only significant abilities are all violent in a shooting, sneaking, punching, killing sort of way.

I now realize I left out the low self-image part from the quote, but Jayne even lives up to that, as evidenced in the episode when the Mudders hold him up as a hero. The rest of the time he masks his self-image issues with a lot of false bravado, but it's undeniably there.

Charisma 1 does not indicate a bad or munchy character. It is a possible warning sign, but that is all.

[mfb]

i guess i'm just vain about my characters--i've never used Cha as a dump stat except in D&D (where you have a lot less control over your stat numbers).

[sloejack]

Surely the one stat you can't afford to have at 1 is Charisma.

Thoughts?

When having a 1 Charisma can get you killed, then people might start balancing their characters out and putting some points to it.
I think the real question you're asking, that based on the way the game defines the scope of charisma, do the players who take a 1 charisma for themselves actually play that way or do they and the GMs ignore it as a dump stat?

[imperialus]

because different groups look for different things in their games.

Some groups might like getting involved in huge intricate plots where Haraquin has them on speed-dial and they will go several sessions between combat.

Other groups might like a Hong Kong Action Theater style game where the session isn't complete unless the Streetsam has jumped through a window while firing his matching Ares Preadators.

Some groups might rely on a dedicated face for all their NPC dealings, while other groups might have negotiations involving all the PC's.

Some groups might focus a great deal on relationships between the PC's while others might just assume that all the PC's get along well enough not to kill each other and go from there.

No matter what your groups playstyle there is no such thing as wrongbadfun. If a Cha 1 streetsam/hacker/mage whatever works in your group great. If not, that's just dandy too. It's not like you have to play the characters that other people post here.

Besides lets face it. At its core Shadowrun is a game where you play a criminal who shoots people in the face for money. That isn't a career choice that appeals to very many bubbly shiny happy people who are easy to get along with.

[Wynters]

Wrong! The lowest you can get is "Uncouth." That makes you untrained for all social skills, you can't even default to them, automatic fail. At least with charisma 1, if you stakced on some situational modifiers (i.e. you're uncharismatic but you have a big gun and 5 friends) you could succeed.

Strawman. It's not a case of skills. It's a case of Charisma. Someone whose very body language is rampantly offensive can have been trained how to negotiate, but that doesn't mean that he isn't rampantly offensive.

Otherwise having Agility 1 would have no detrimental affect on any non-specified agility action as long as I had Firearms 6, which is patently ridiculous.

Street Samuari, anyone? Lost my soul to chrome, live for nothing but the kill, baby!

"Welcome to a jail cell. You wouldn't believe that number of people who phoned in as soon as a reward was posted for information."

See Uncouth. And there are plenty of people with equal charisma. They're as uncharismatic as they come, but that's not special.

Strawman. There is, as I clearly said, no one with less Charisma

Someone who values more than just personality would run with a charisma 1 person. If the expert sniper never talks unless you almost force him to, are you going to complain? Not as long as he's covering your ass.

Actually, I would be working with the expert sniper who only has Agility 8 rather than Agility 9. Why? Because I wouldn't feel the constant need to punch the face in of the expert sniper with Charisma 1.

And charisma 1 people don't stick out like a sore thumb as you describe. It isn't some kind of magical vibe that they give off that everyone can sense. Imagine a crowded room -- there might be a charisma 1 person in there, and you could probably find them (maybe by themselves in the corner) but it's not like "OMG LOOK AT THAT GUY!"

Well, their personal aura (not the magical one) is the worst it could possibly be, their self-image and thus how they carry themselves is massively pronounced (and different to the others), the way they dress, etc, etc so, actually, it will be pretty obvious.

What stat you can't afford to have at 1 is totally dependent on the character you play. A straigh up combat person can get by with it. Now, it sounds to me like as GM, you would say that the character can't go outside without the police arresting him for being uncharismatic. But that's you game.

Charisma is in use constantly. It's like a commlink constantly being hit for info. Everybody who looks at you or deals with you encounters your Charisma. It just seems hilarious that so many people think that that means nothing compared to a 6% increase in a combat attribute. It's even more hilarious that people think that such a person would be able to find a team that would be willing to work with them.

[mfb]

Strawman. There is, as I clearly said, no one with less Charisma

that may be true, but it's also true that the lowest possible Cha score doesn't mean all the things you're talking about. someone with 1 Cha and Uncouth is much less pleasant to be around than someone with 1 Cha and a few points in social skills. and somoene with 1 Cha and high social skills might be pleasant to be around... but he just creeps people out for no reason you can put your finger on, or he's got the BO of a musk ox, or somesuch.

[sloejack]

that may be true, but it's also true that the lowest possible Cha score doesn't mean all the things you're talking about. someone with 1 Cha and Uncouth is much less pleasant to be around than someone with 1 Cha and a few points in social skills. and somoene with 1 Cha and high social skills might be pleasant to be around... but he just creeps people out for no reason you can put your finger on, or he's got the BO of a musk ox, or somesuch.

The Steve Buschemi of the 6th world? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Jhaiisiin]

You asked for people's thoughts (aka opinions) and now you're shooting them down with logical falacies. They're opinions, not statements of fact. We've already got one person on this board who loves to throws those falacies around, please don't become a second.

You may not agree with people's opinions, but you did ask for them.

That said, Charisma 1 has been the dump stat/low stat in a ton of RPG games (from DnD to White Wolf to Star Wars to SR... the list goes on) for all of history. The fact is, many people simply don't see the need for Charisma. Some do, and they take full advantage of that knowledge, but others go "Pshaw! Charsima is teh suk!" and just ignore the stat. If they have GM's who don't do anything about it, or allow the player to play however they think the character should act, irregardless of stats, then you have even more support for it being a "useless" stat. I'll admit, my GM's and even myself have been guilty of the latter, not enforcing a person's roleplaying based on their stats. After all, if you give that character a logic/intelligence of 1, you better not be the team tactician, you know? But it's not always enforced, and that fosters the (innacurate) belief that they don't need stat x.

[Eyeless Blond]

The thing is, attributes are significantly less granular than they were in SR3. In SR3, you could go from attribute 1-10, though of course 7-9 were really tough to get at chargen and 10 was especially rare and special. Now you are limited to 1-7, with 7 as the really rare and special one, and 1-4 being "common".

That means that your 1 Cha person is definitely not alone, and not even particularly unique. In fact, depending on the percentages, he'll likely fit in with between 14% and 25% of the population. Look around next time you're at work. If you're in a room with 20 people, likely 3-4 of them will have Cha 1, in SR4 terms. That's not rare; it's not even really notable.

[Adarael]

Charisma 1 is the lowest you can have a stat. It doesn't mean you're a leper, though. It just means you're not very social. This becomes apparent when you realize the average joe on the street probably has a charisma of 2.

Look at it this way: body 1 doesn't mean you have to live in a bubble, strength 1 doesn't mean you can't lift a backpack, agility 1 doesn't mean you can't walk, and charisma 1 doesn't mean people instinctively spit on you.

[Jhaiisiin]

Come to think of it, I would think it's possible to have a stat of 0. Someone who has no immune system and really weak skin could be body 0, someone who has 0 muscle strength due to atrophy or whatever could be str or agility 0, someone with brain damage or other complications could have charisma 0, etc. I don't see any reason why there can't be a 0 stat. You just can't be 0 at chargen.

[martindv]

i guess i'm just vain about my characters--i've never used Cha as a dump stat except in D&D (where you have a lot less control over your stat numbers).

Come to think of it, wasn't the term Dump Stat coined to describe Charisma?

You asked for people's thoughts (aka opinions) and now you're shooting them down with logical falacies. They're opinions, not statements of fact. We've already got one person on this board who loves to throws those falacies around, please don't become a second.

Internet Charisma 1.

Look at it this way: body 1 doesn't mean you have to live in a bubble, strength 1 doesn't mean you can't lift a backpack, agility 1 doesn't mean you can't walk, and charisma 1 doesn't mean people instinctively spit on you.

hahahaha

That's one way of fixing the Charisma 1 "problem".

[Aaron]

When I'm running a game with a Charisma 1 character, I like to use the stat to color the character's perceptions. For example, "That waitress is obviously hot for you," or "This cop keeps talking like he's waving his dick in your face," instead of what I'd tell a higher-Charisma character: "The waitress smiles politely as she asks for your order," or "The officer asks you to state your business."

[Shrike30]

2-4 is what I view as normal. 0-1 is the low range, 5-6 is the high. 7 is there because we excel in silly ways when we're Fastjack or Michael Jordan. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It's definitely possible to have a stat of 0. Plenty of terminally ill or bedridden people could be described as having some or all of their physical stats at 0. Severely developmentally delayed folks, those with certain kinds of traumatic brain injury, or otherwise handicapped individuals could be described as having some or all of their mental stats at 0.

People in this state don't tend to become shadowrunners, however.

Composure and Judge Intentions rolls are a great way to keep Charisma relevant in a game.

[BlueMax]

Setting Charisma to 1 can make a great deal of sense in non social games. I have played with many groups that treat shadowrun as a chance to play modern field ops.

[the_dunner]

This becomes apparent when you realize the average joe on the street probably has a charisma of 2.

By definition, "the average joe on the street" is a typical person. If he's a typical person, he has a charisma of 3. That's the basic model around which human attributes are scaled.

[paws2sky]

I've been looking at a number of characters that have been posted on these boards and the one pretty consistent facet of them is Charisma 1.
Sure, Charisma doesn't help you directly kill stuff or help pick that maglock but it seems that people don't realise just what Charisma 1 means.

One thing you'll notice is that many of the characters tossed around here are designed with min/max in mind. If the character isn't using a set of skills, then the associated attributes are considered low priority. Some go as far as to flatline their low priority attributes which, IMO, is a bad idea.

The BBB states that Charisma represents "a character's personal aura, self-image, ego, willngness to find out what people want and give it to them, and ability to recognise what she can and can't get out of people. A whiny demeanour,a me-first attitude or an inability to read body language or subtle hints are just a few traits that can give a character low Charisma."
The Attributes table defines 1 as "Weak", but it also defines it as the absolute lowest value that exists.
Charisma 1 indicates a character that is a pit of self-image negativity, selfishness, whinginess, totally blind/uncaring to the needs and desires of others and unable to communicate in any meaningful way on a social level.

It could be argued that most people running the shadows are "not all there." Its not exactly an occupation that you accidentally get involved in. Well, okay, some people do (Sidewinder, etc.), but probably 95%+ of the runner community choose to live this insane, outlaw lifestyle. Many are dangerously psychotic, drug addicted, p-fixed, scorched, anti-social, or what have you.

(Heck, if you think about it, Faces are abnormal too. Why on Earth would these people, who are universally attractive, smooth talking, and (very often) wealthy go anywhere near the shadows? They could get a high paying job as a PR person for a corp. Or if they really hated the corps, how about a Policlub or non-profit? If they want excitement, there's always base jumping, race car driving, paranimal training...)

Who on earth would want to run with such people? Which contacts would develop anything but the most coldly professional relationship with such a runner? Who wouldn't turn such a thoroughly dislikable runner in for the merest hint of a reward? Who are the local police going to constantly pick on? When someone is scanning a crowd who is going to be the person standing out, the people who can blend into a social situation or the person everyone gives a wide berth to and no one ever looks at just in case he makes eye-contact first?

Anyone that sees value in their other skills, gear, etc.? For instance...

• Brutus Da Troll may be completely socially retarded, but he's the biggest, baddest, mo-fo around. He's a jerk, crude, smells like ass, and has a habit of spitting on the floor, but he comes with his own Panther Cannon, tons of implants, and a van full of oddball gear that he's looted during his career. Just never let him open his mouth at the meet.
• Gunther Vanderhaus was a world class decker at XYZ corp before Crash 2.0. Despite his age (around 35), he's about as emotionally developed as your average brooding teenager. His mind is as sharp as a monosword and his commlink is top of the line, packed with custom programs, and he knows backdoors into a dozen different nodes around the sprawl. He also happens to your team's new hacker. Just don't ever let him get talked up by a pretty face at the bar.

If I were the team's Face, either of those Cha 1 characters viable additions to the group. Sure, it'd increase the work I'd have to do to keep running smoothly (and securely), but I need a good hacker and I really probably should have some muscle.

These chumps are easy to manipulate and they're probably going to be conviced that I'm their best buddy if I make sure to keep them well stocked on booze, porn, hooker, and whatever other vice they happen to have. And if worst comes to worst, I can throw them under the bus, so to speak, and save my own skin. They're never going to be able to convince anyone that I was the person who made all those horrible things happen.

Surely the one stat you can't afford to have at 1 is Charisma.

Having any of the stats at 1 is pretty terrible when you think about it what is means in-game and not just as numbers on the character sheet. Still, of all the stats, Cha is the one that's least likely to get you instantly dead if you have it at 1.

And then there's the other game mechanics issue: XP costs. In the long run, its cheaper to bottom out an attribute at character creation to boost another one up. Buying that 1 up to a 2 will cost you farless than, say, buying that 5 up to a 6.

[Wynters]

You asked for people's thoughts (aka opinions) and now you're shooting them down with logical falacies. They're opinions, not statements of fact. We've already got one person on this board who loves to throws those falacies around, please don't become a second.

EDIT: I'm happy to have people point out where I've gone wrong. I've deliberately included the sections of the rules that informed my view so just that could take place (I would appreciate it if you would actually point out the 'logical fallacies' rather than just throw the words around as if they actually carried some weight). If people raise decent queries/points then I'll happily alter my stance but I tend to take exception at people either ignoring or misrepresenting what I said which is why I've only replied to one other particular post.

Although I would take this opportunity to re-emphasise the point I made that no-one, not even PCs would like to hang around with Charisma 1. Not when there is a significant pool of Shadow runners who are less offensive and can do the job just as well (give or take a slight difference in combat pools). Therefore comments about using a Face to offset the Charisma 1 runner would seem to be flawed.