Recruiting: Down in the Gutter - Second Phase, Life in Redmond's Newest Street Gang Options

[Dantic]

One question about gear. I bought inline skates for Twiggs, they are from Arsenal pg. 62, I'd rather have a skateboard, or skimmerboard with tech similar to skimmer disk available as cyber in Augmentation pg 47. I figure a skateboard would be cheaper maybe the same 100 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) as inline skates with the same basic stats of one and one-half movement, where skimmer tech would probably be 3000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) or so with an avail around 6, and movment like the cyber of two times movement. Also a skateboard could be used as an improvised club weapon.

[lkim]

We have discussed it. Male Bunraku puppet. That's it.

Alright, Male Bunraku puppet it is. I'll modify the background/concept this weekend. So... GM/staff doesn't mind that if I use this story to give him some reasonable cyber/biowares?

[Slipshade]

Hasn't been decided yet IC or OOC as far as I can remember... something to work on in game I suppose

Hehe, yah Baby needs her first ink, so I was wondering the same thing, but certainly a topic for discussion in the OCC and IC threads.

[Eyeless Blond]

One question about gear. I bought inline skates for Twiggs, they are from Arsenal pg. 62, I'd rather have a skateboard, or skimmerboard with tech similar to skimmer disk available as cyber in Augmentation pg 47. I figure a skateboard would be cheaper maybe the same 100 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) as inline skates with the same basic stats of one and one-half movement, where skimmer tech would probably be 3000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) or so with an avail around 6, and movment like the cyber of two times movement. Also a skateboard could be used as an improvised club weapon.

You're kidding, they have hoverboards in SR4? Wow, where was I when this happened? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Grr, and there appears to be no rules for getting Microscopic Vision in goggles instead of as cyberware, though the 'ware is extremely available.

[Dantic]

You're kidding, they have hoverboards in SR4? Wow, where was I when this happened? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Grr, and there appears to be no rules for getting Microscopic Vision in goggles instead of as cyberware, though the 'ware is extremely available.

There aren't hoverboards specificaly, but Augmentation has a skimmerdisk cyberfoot mod that lets you put a pair of skimmer disk in the bottom of your feet, based on microskimmer drone tech, if you can put the tech in cyber feet, it makes sense that it can be put in something more mundane.

[Jaid]

True, he could do those things. But those are only short periods of time that you will have to track. An hour here, half hour there and if you are working on a weapon while on guard duty you won't be paying attention to what you are supposed to be doing which would be guarding. Now that said, that is a RP choice that you would make with your character and I am fine with that, but there will likely be time that you will have to RP sitting in a corner working on stuff. It just tends to work out that way. If you find that part interesting that is awesome, but there is a sacrifice that will be made. You will not be allowed to just go out and do whatever with the gang and then say...oh and I worked on my tomahawk too. That will get vetoed quick from the GM. You may be able to split time, but WR1 was giving you a heads up. That is how he runs item creation. If it takes you a week of working 8 hours a day to complete a task and you say "I'm gonna sit here and work 8 hours a day on this project." Then that is how much IC time it takes. You can leave the project if something comes up but your time accumulated will stop and not start up again until to say. "OK I am going back to work on said project."

Does that help clarify anything. WR1 - Is that a decent summary of how you run things?

that's no problem, i can't argue with that (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) i was just pointing out that i wouldn't *always* be stuck doing nothing as far as making stuff. i agree completely that i would, at best, be distracted (and at worst not even get a check to notice stuff) on guard duty while making stuff, so no disagreement there anyways.

Lots of *technically's* in there. Maybe chalk this up to spirit of the law as opposed to letter of the law.

good, i was proposing those in case your concerns were things relating to the gang having difficulty communicating with him or similar. so basically, you're going to run it the way i would run it (basically, if it moves under it's own power rather than being people-powered, or if it interracts with the matrix/wireless in any way, then it's subject to gremlins?). essentially, i was proposing those as possible solutions if your concern was with him not using those devices. the character was intended (and still is, now) to be an uncybered mundane.

I just thought is was something that was to much of a detriment to others too. Why would a gang want to keep someone that has the very real potential to screw up their stuff.

well, only if he uses it. if he doesn't swipe someone's commlink to make a call, then their commlink won't reboot and lose all their pr0n (and have it replaced with gay troll pr0n) and since he knows what happens when he touches things, he'll make a point not too (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I really like it as a character quirk more than a flaw. I guess right now it is best to say we don't like it and would like to see it changed. Above and beyond that, you have a character that has gremlins, but will never use stuff that affects you as your *technically's* point out. That doesn't work with DiTG either. Flaws are flaws and should come into play. We can argue points all day long, but none of us are comfortable letting that flaw in, particularly with your concept, so it isn't going to fly. Period. Lets move on so we can keep you moving towards acceptance in the game.

again, my *technically's* were intended to resolve any possible concerns relating to an inability on his part to use those devices without it screwing up. as i said (in that same post, no less) it is against the concept, but if the concern was with him being unable to use those devices that i was willing to be a little flexible on the issue. in particular, i would refer you to such statements that i made as 'though to be honest, i didn't plan on having any cyber in this character, since it's not particularly appropriate thematically in my head ' or ' i could *technically* have a gun (but not a smartgun) or a radio (but not a commlink) and it would work just fine. again, not quite what i had originally planned, but if it's a huge issue, i can just tone back the theme a little. i mean, having a radio wouldn't totally kill the RPing...' to show that my intended character is uncybered, and does not use any tech.

as far as not being a flaw if i avoid it, i feel that i should point out that if there was a flaw called "won't use any advanced technology" people would probably avoid it like the plague. honestly, not using technological devices is a flaw in and of itself. i mean, if legion just refused to do anything when it's daylight, would that make his allergy to sunlight and his geas cease to be flaws, or would he be feeling the effects of the flaws even if he didn't go out into the sunlight? really, it makes little sense for someone to just completely reject all the amazing devices available unless they have some kind of actual mechanical reason to do so.

regardless, if you're that dead set against it, i can change it around. just thought it would be interesting to try a flaw that i've never picked up yet, see how it goes (but then, i've never taken simsense vertigo before either, so we'll see how that goes i guess.) unless of course you feel that not using simsense is still not a flaw, but seriously, it's not like it has no effect on him.

[Vegas]

Hehe, yah Baby needs her first ink, so I was wondering the same thing, but certainly a topic for discussion in the OCC and IC threads.

Yeah, I have a feeling Ink will be busy IC'ly when the gang has some downtime and an HQ to meet up/work out of and we get the colours hammered out as I've got something planned for Nevada too.

I think Black is a given, but just with the whole October bit I'd imagine fall'ish colours of rust, gold, red, brown, etc. *shrugs* but that's just me (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Whipstitch]

So, I just noted something I should have realized earlier, but didn't due to SM's colorful description of Shamanic Way Adepts: Mentor Spirits are listed as available for people with the Magician and Mystic Adept qualities only, by the RAW. Should I drop the Rat thing, ignore the tecnicality or go ahead and reconfigure him as a Mystic Adept? I don't really see the character as a true a spell caster, but I certainly could live with putting a point of magic into Sorcery/Conjuring and taking Counterspelling as his sole Mystic talent (having some protection from Detection spells at least would make sense).

[WinterRat1]

Still kicking around a name. I think I have his stats squared away. I think.

So from previous experience, I estimate that means we'll have a completed character from you by...what, summer 2009? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Although let me guess, there is ONE thing you do have squared away for certain: a monofilament chainsaw! Am I correct? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Jaid]

So, I just noted something I should have realized earlier, but didn't due to SM's colorful description of Shamanic Way Adepts: Mentor Spirits are listed as available for people with the Magician and Mystic Adept qualities only, by the RAW. Should I drop the Rat thing, ignore the tecnicality or go ahead and reconfigure him as a Mystic Adept? I don't really see the character as a true a spell caster, but I certainly could live with putting a point of magic into Sorcery/Conjuring and taking Counterspelling as his sole Mystic talent (having some protection from Detection spells at least would make sense).

that has been noted to be an error. behold!

Members of any tradition may have mentor spirits, including adepts.

[HeySparky]

So from previous experience, I estimate that means we'll have a completed character from you by...what, summer 2009? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Although let me guess, there is ONE thing you do have squared away for certain: a monofilament chainsaw! Am I correct? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Well, not until NOW, it wasn't. Now I HAVE to include it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Any ruling on what skill governs construction equipment?

[Whipstitch]

Yeah, see, I saw that, but what's confusing me is that it says under the quality itself that mystic adepts and magicians are eligible with no mention of vanilla adepts. Whch makes me wonder which section is in error or if perhaps in your quote they intended "adepts" to be interpreted as MystAds.

I mean, either way it doesn't change my background much, so I can work with things to end up with more or less the same sort of character from an rp perspective, but I still rather wish the book was clearer.

[Vegas]

Jaid

I'm not sure if the reasons behind us not being cool with you taking Gremilns as a flaw are totally clear. The biggest thing was that you were taking a flaw that with the way you were proposing making your character was basically going to be getting those flaw points for "Free" which is "totally not cool" in this game. Everyone's flaws are going to effect them (and possibly the gang as a whole). By making your guy specifically a "low-tech" weapons maker, without a commlink, and a bike with a stripped out pilot program/2070 tech, you instantly bypass the possibility of things going "wrong" with the gremlins flaw. It'd be similar to an extent as a mage who takes the sensitive system flaw and never gets/needs cyber/bioware. Free points for nothing, and that just won't fly here. All of our flaws are coming into play and having an impact on our characters.

That is the reasoning behind why we're not ok with taking the flaw with the way the character has been proposed in the thread, we're not opposed to the flaw in general, just this instance. Sure taking SOME precautions to avoid the gremlins penalties are understandable, however basically eliminating them all together is not. Hope that clears it up crystally for everyone.

[Jaid]

Well, not until NOW, it wasn't. Now I HAVE to include it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Any ruling on what skill governs construction equipment?

pilot groundcraft to drive, industrial engineering to build stuff with it (unless you're building weapons/armor/vehicles/something that needs artisan skill/etc).

or at least, that's the closest thing to rules i can find on it (basically borrowing from the remote control option for controlling drones, which basically says you use command (which replaces all attributes) + appropriate skill to do something. so you would use attribute + pilot skill to drive the vehicle from place to place, and you would use attribute industrial engineering to actually build anything with it, is how i would interpret things.

[Jaid]

sure, whatever, apparently giving up any possibility of hacking anything, using any kind of cool shadowrun tech, using any number of cool weapons, taking penalties on building stuff because he's using inadequate tools, etc... all that isn't an effect? you don't perceive any drawbacks to that? he doesn't dare touch a commlink to get a plan for building stuff, which means he's not only giving up a bonus for having an AR plan, he's taking a penalty equal to log - 5 to his building test. he's sacrificing the incredible utility of having a smartgun linked via DNI, he's giving up instant communication with the gang, he's giving up the ability to use the matrix to communicate with his contacts, he's giving up the ability to even try such simple tasks as searching the matrix for information, he's giving up all kinds of skillsofts... and none of that qualifies as impacting him?

i mean, don't get me wrong, if the GM (team) says no to something, then that's fine within your game. but don't tell me that mechanic is *not* impacting the character mechanically when i am ignoring character options that would make the concept more mechanically powerful.

[Slipshade]

Jaid

Ok, the answer is No.

Lets move on to more productive work.

[Vegas]

Jaid

Except he's NOT giving that up by force, but by CHOICE to avoid being plagued by the gremlins flaw as written. I'm not saying it doesn't give him a huge disadvantage.. but in no way does the flaw state that you HAVE to give up the tech.. your character is CHOOSING to so to keep himself from breaking things, having them explode, backfire or whatever. But the way you're writing him up he's never going to have to worry about the flaw affecting him as written, if he never picks up 2070 SOTA tech in any way shape or form it's not the flaw but almost something different like Slip originally suggested along the lines of having an almost phobic sense towards it.

I (we) aren't trying to doubly penalize you... I do understand that it does disadvantage the character to do what you're talking about. I was just trying to point out how we were viewing the situation given what you have told us about the character and how he goes about avoiding high-tech/SOTA.

[Jaid]

sure, whatever, apparently giving up any possibility of hacking anything, using any kind of cool shadowrun tech, using any number of cool weapons, taking penalties on building stuff because he's using inadequate tools, etc... all that isn't an effect? you don't perceive any drawbacks to that? he doesn't dare touch a commlink to get a plan for building stuff, which means he's not only giving up a bonus for having an AR plan, he's taking a penalty equal to log - 5 to his building test. he's sacrificing the incredible utility of having a smartgun linked via DNI, he's giving up instant communication with the gang, he's giving up the ability to use the matrix to communicate with his contacts, he's giving up the ability to even try such simple tasks as searching the matrix for information, he's giving up all kinds of skillsofts... and none of that qualifies as impacting him?

i mean, don't get me wrong, if the GM (team) says no to something, then that's fine within your game. but don't tell me that mechanic is *not* impacting the character mechanically when i am ignoring character options that would make the concept more mechanically powerful.

ok then, so what do you want next? from what i gather, apart from gremlins, you like the rough sketch, but i assume there is more that needs to be done, otherwise you would have presumably just told me to remove gremlins. you need a bit more detail in the backstory, or are you waiting on me to put some numbers to this guy? or is there something more?

[Neuntöter]

well, while i worked a bit on Will in my free time i stumbled over a few things.

Would it be much of a problem to let him start with an Actioneer Business Suit? Compared with the all time favourite the lined coat it is actually a bit worse, apart from the availability 8. Alternatively i could work with Armored Clothing in the fashion of a smart suit.

And, does being a wanted criminal already constitute for having the Criminal SINner flaw? On the one hand he never actually spent time behind bars (yet), on the other i am not too sure if he could comfortably go around buying cigarettes and paying bus fares with it.

And as a third strike, i figured that the violent nature of his awakening might leave a permanent mark on his aura and result in the Astral Beacon flaw, i just wondered if it is a "valid" flaw for this campaign.

[Vegas]

Jaid

Backstory is a plus. We need to try to catch each other online (Slip, myself and WR) and do more discussion on your guy. Hopefully we can give you an answer ASAP.

Neuntoter
1) Yes it is a problem, availability is capped at 6 for magically active characters. Period, no fudging the one item up to Avail. 12 is for MUNDANE characters only. No actioneer business suit.
2) No, it's not the same thing, especially if you're not wanted by the police. Just because you're a "wanted man" by some organization (like the old SR3 enemies/hunted flaws) doesn't mean you've got the Criminal SIN if you haven't done time for the crime (in my eyes at least) Having a legal SIN however is potentially a vaild flaw and if you get caught you could very likely end up with a Criminal SIN and end up in jail if you're wanted by the cops (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
3) Don't care. Do if it you want. You'll be a BIGGER target for the UVN's first volleys that way (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Slipshade]

And as a third strike, i figured that the violent nature of his awakening might leave a permanent mark on his aura and result in the Astral Beacon flaw, i just wondered if it is a "valid" flaw for this campaign.

No problem with it here. Seems perfectly valid to me.

[Eyeless Blond]

So, is my new concept all right? Still working on the little guy's details, but I'm wondering if I should bother, or go back to the drawing board?

[WinterRat1]

Sparky - Pilot Ground Craft (Construction Equipment)

And don't give me any of that 'oh now I have to add the chainsaw' spiel. Every ganger character I've seen you make has had a monofilament chainsaw. Now I'm supposed to believe this one was going to be any different?! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Ikim -

Alright, Male Bunraku puppet it is. I'll modify the background/concept this weekend. So... GM/staff doesn't mind that if I use this story to give him some reasonable cyber/biowares?

It depends entirely on what you consider reasonable. But yes, it does explain some types of cyber/bio, as long as its within the predefined restrictions in the Character Creation rules.

Dantic -

One question about gear. I bought inline skates for Twiggs, they are from Arsenal pg. 62, I'd rather have a skateboard, or skimmerboard with tech similar to skimmer disk available as cyber in Augmentation pg 47. I figure a skateboard would be cheaper maybe the same 100 nuyen.gif as inline skates with the same basic stats of one and one-half movement, where skimmer tech would probably be 3000 nuyen.gif or so with an avail around 6, and movment like the cyber of two times movement. Also a skateboard could be used as an improvised club weapon.

If you want a skateboard, same cost and stats as the inline skates works fine for me.

Whipstich - You can have a Mentor Spirit as an Adept.

[WinterRat1]

Jaid

Re Gremlins: I don’t want to beat the point to death, and I appreciate your willingness to go along with the GM Staff’s ruling. However, I want to clarify the issue from our point of view isn’t the Gremlins flaw specifically, it’s how it interacts with the rest of your character.

For a simplified example, if you had a hacker who had gremlins, you’d have no questions from us. It would be approved no problem.

However, your low-tech weaponsmith will never be affected by it, as you’ve written him. Therefore, the only way it could possibly be a problem for you is if you screwed up your teammates’ stuff.

That’s one problem we have with it; it’s only good at screwing over your allies, so why would they want you onboard?

You’ve carefully addressed that by saying he will never touch his teammates’ stuff, but then if that’s the case, it doesn’t negatively affect anyone. So how is something that has no negative a flaw?

Your counterargument is essentially:

giving up any possibility of hacking anything, using any kind of cool shadowrun tech, using any number of cool weapons, taking penalties on building stuff because he's using inadequate tools, etc... all that isn't an effect? you don't perceive any drawbacks to that? he doesn't dare touch a commlink to get a plan for building stuff, which means he's not only giving up a bonus for having an AR plan, he's taking a penalty equal to log - 5 to his building test. he's sacrificing the incredible utility of having a smartgun linked via DNI, he's giving up instant communication with the gang, he's giving up the ability to use the matrix to communicate with his contacts, he's giving up the ability to even try such simple tasks as searching the matrix for information, he's giving up all kinds of skillsofts... and none of that qualifies as impacting him?

In another shadowrun game, I might agree with you. To some extent, limiting an ability/advantage/opportunity a character would normally have is a flaw, much like a geas limits a magician’s ability to do something he would normally be able to do, except now he can’t, in certain circumstances.

The problem with your argument is it overlooks the nature of our game. Not having any of the options you listed above is normal for denizens of Kingsgate.

Your character not having any of those opportunities does not put him at a relative disadvantage because everyone else in our little world is in the exact same boat. So no, none of your examples qualifies as impacting him, because everyone else is laboring under the same problems already. Lacking all of the things you listed is the default condition. Thus anyone who has any of those things is at an advantage relative to everyone else, because unlike a traditional shadowrun game, not having those things is the rule, not the exception.

Your use of Legion’s daylight geas is therefore flawed, because unlike everyone else, Legion actively loses something during the daylight. He cannot do what he would normally do, which is a disadvantage. Furthermore, not being able to operate in daylight at maximum capacity is a disadvantage relative to everyone else in the game world, most of whom have no such problems. Finally, for him to choose not to act in daylight is a possibility, but a significantly less viable and significantly more problematic option than your surrendering all the ‘high-tech’ stuff SR has to offer, since as I stated above, that’s already the default condition for people in our game.

In a world where a baseball bat and a bad attitude is a viable arsenal, and the wireless network is completely subject to the whims of fate (read: rely on it and I guarantee you’ll get hammered for doing so), lacking access to technology is not a disadvantage.

I bring all this up because the larger issue is the flaws you’ve proposed to replace Gremlins, such as Spirit Bane, Simsense Vertigo, and Sensitive System, demonstrate a similar disconnect with what we consider a flaw.

Spirit Bane is rarely likely to be a problem in our game, given the relative lack of magical opposition, but depending on what type of spirit you pick, I may consider this.

Simsense Vertigo simply isn’t a flaw for your character concept, and Sensitive System isn’t either, for the same reasons as Gremlins.

How often will your character use Simsense in situation that matters, even without Gremlins? Simply put, for your character concept he won’t. What is he going to do, try to use AR or VR to help him Build a Better Tomahawk?

Your character will almost never use AR, VR, or Simsense in a situation in which having a -2 will be an issue in any way, shape, or form, and when he does experience the penalty, it will not be in a situation in which failure creates any kind of genuine problem. So I fail to see how this is a valid flaw.

Sensitive System for a character with no cyber, is extremely unlikely to ever be in a position to afford any cyber at all, let alone any cyber that would cause this flaw to have a material impact, is not a flaw either. Basically, it costs you twice as much essence if you want to buy something you can’t afford, that you won’t have the opportunity to get, and can’t obtain in a large enough volume (Essence Cost). Again, functionally you will not have any drawbacks from this flaw.

The overarching problem the GM Staff has with Gremlins (and your proposed replacements) is that for your character concept, they simply do not have any drawbacks. Your character concept has been built in a way to circumvent any of those flaws having any material impact.

Now if Blade was a hacker, I would allow Simsense Vertigo, Gremlins, and probably even Sensitive System, because there is no question for that concept, any or all of those is a problem.

So the issue as it stands is not any particular flaw, it’s how you are trying to build them into your character in a way that prevents them from actually being flaws.

That is the root of our problem with Gremlins, and as long as you attempt to take that approach that will be our problem will any flaw you take.

Therefore, as far as what we need from Blade, it’s not necessarily the character concept or the flaws we have an issue with. In fact I think you’ve provide a solid amount of detail on him so far, although I’d have to discuss with the others how much more, if any, additional information we want.

Our issue is the disconnect in your understanding of what a flaw is with ours, and how we expect flaws to interact with character concepts. Until we can get that straightened out, there’s no point moving forward, because any numbers you come up with on your character sheet will be rejected because the flaws you take won’t be ones we will grant you BP for.

I hope that clarifies our position and rationale on our rulings so you can understand where we’re coming from, adjust accordingly, and we can move you on with the recruitment process! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[HeySparky]

Sparky - Pilot Ground Craft (Construction Equipment)

And don't give me any of that 'oh now I have to add the chainsaw' spiel. Every ganger character I've seen you make has had a monofilament chainsaw. Now I'm supposed to believe this one was going to be any different?! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

WELL! The reason I kept taking it was because I've never gotten to USE it. I have yet to exorcise that particular chargen demon. It's a withered, whimpy demon now, and the angel on my other shoulder keeps pointing out the passage in the Gear section where a chainsaw has a -2 to the skill DP because it's 'awkward.' I mean, wth is Exotic Melee Weapon for if not to take that sort of thing into account? Seriously. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Anyway, we'll see... we'll just see.