Recruiting: Down in the Gutter - Second Phase, Life in Redmond's Newest Street Gang Options

[WinterRat1]

If our more technically inclined members would weigh in with their thoughts on BTL production as Dantic did, that would be greatly appreciated.

[Eyeless Blond]

I can tell you right now you're gonna need a lot more to get a ruleset approved. You won't have to go quite as far as, say, the Chemistry chapter in Arsenal, but the writeup is gonna have to be closer to that than a couple of paragraphs.

Think of it this way: how many questions went into describing your character? How many pages of writing? Writing less than that for the primary focus of your character's existence is practically an insult to that character's existence. What you're going to have to write to make this work is going to have to put the drug creation rules to shame. After all, drugs already existed in the main book; they had mechanical effects, prices, everything, along with the flavor text. All they needed was a Threshold and an interval to be complete.

BTLs? Don't. That's where you're going to have to begin, by statting up what each BTL does, how it does it, and how much it costs (don't let yourself be constrained by what's already written in houserule land here; houserules can be changed if the new rules are more persuasive and better written. Make it interesting; this is going to be your character's life, after all, so don't skimp on the details and the flavor.

When you're done there, then start thinking about actual production. What skills are necessary to produce a complete BTL, of each kind? Does it take multiple steps? (it should!) Is there a most important, or limiting step? What shortcuts can you make, and how does that affect things? Again, don't skimp on the details and flavor; this is your character's life and livelihood we're talking about here.

If you want I'd be glad to help out. I like making rulesets; if Drip ever got far enough along I was planning on writing custom vehicle creation and pricing rules, basically remaking Rigger 3 in 4th ed. I promise you, though, if I'm the one to write them they won't be easy; you absolutely won't be able to acquire all of the skills needed to do a first-rate job with 310 BPs, or probably even 400 BPs, because I believe that making a BTL from scratch should take as many skills as it takes to make and digitally remaster a full-length movie in the modern era, plus a few extra to deal with the emotive tracks. If I have a say in it, it'll "take a village" to get a good BTL shop going, and you'll need to get most of the other technical-minded gangers onboard--including Drip who lost his parents to chiphead fantasies--just as everyone'll have to get involved to put together a chopshop or a real drug lab (especially that last one; a significant part of my professional life has been devoted to knowing exactly how and why "Meth for Dummies" nearly always ends with a pile of bodies in a smoking crater). But I dearly love robust rulesets, so I'll be glad to help if you like. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[lkim]

Actually I was even thinking Dream < Trip < Mood < P-Fix, just because it was how price was on the house rule.

I would agree with your intervals for the most part, and your thresholds, quite fair all around, maybe even a little too fair, may be able to lower all thresholds by 2 since you add rating.

Sounds fair. Let me Modify it and re-post.

I think that additionaly however you would need an edit program, specificaly designed for simsense (according to edit descrition it can modify video, audio, images, etc. but no mention of simsense. This would count as a hacking program for cost and availability, and no chip produced could exceed the rating of the edit program.

Yes, I do agree 100% with you on that.

[lkim]

I can tell you right now you're gonna need a lot more to get a ruleset approved. You won't have to go quite as far as, say, the Chemistry chapter in Arsenal, but the writeup is gonna have to be closer to that than a couple of paragraphs.

It was just basic ideas to see how you all feel about it. Nothing final.

Think of it this way: how many questions went into describing your character? How many pages of writing? Writing less than that for the primary focus of your character's existence is practically an insult to that character's existence. What you're going to have to write to make this work is going to have to put the drug creation rules to shame. After all, drugs already existed in the main book; they had mechanical effects, prices, everything, along with the flavor text. All they needed was a Threshold and an interval to be complete.

BTLs? Don't. That's where you're going to have to begin, by statting up what each BTL does, how it does it, and how much it costs (don't let yourself be constrained by what's already written in houserule land here; houserules can be changed if the new rules are more persuasive and better written. Make it interesting; this is going to be your character's life, after all, so don't skimp on the details and the flavor.

I'm guessing here, but what you mean be mechanical effects are how long it last and down-effect? I don't think it would have any physical effects, as far as plus and minuses.

Although now I think about it mood chips may effect a bit. May be rush of adrenaline from Red Meanie? But besides that I really don't see the positive, lasting effects of them.

When you're done there, then start thinking about actual production. What skills are necessary to produce a complete BTL, of each kind? Does it take multiple steps? (it should!) Is there a most important, or limiting step? What shortcuts can you make, and how does that affect things? Again, don't skimp on the details and flavor; this is your character's life and livelihood we're talking about here.

If you want I'd be glad to help out. I like making rulesets; if Drip ever got far enough along I was planning on writing custom vehicle creation and pricing rules, basically remaking Rigger 3 in 4th ed. I promise you, though, if I'm the one to write them they won't be easy; you absolutely won't be able to acquire all of the skills needed to do a first-rate job with 310 BPs, or probably even 400 BPs, because I believe that making a BTL from scratch should take as many skills as it takes to make and digitally remaster a full-length movie in the modern era, plus a few extra to deal with the emotive tracks. If I have a say in it, it'll "take a village" to get a good BTL shop going, and you'll need to get most of the other technical-minded gangers onboard--including Drip who lost his parents to chiphead fantasies--just as everyone'll have to get involved to put together a chopshop or a real drug lab (especially that last one; a significant part of my professional life has been devoted to knowing exactly how and why "Meth for Dummies" nearly always ends with a pile of bodies in a smoking crater). But I dearly love robust rulesets, so I'll be glad to help if you like. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I do agree when you say it should take multiple steps. Mostly in hacking and hardware/software skills with lots of common programs.

Just a thought of process of copying the existing BTLs;

1. Bypass the self-erasing features of BTL chips (book said Hardware (10, 1 hour) Extended Test, but like Dantic have mentioned, since we have rating for the BTL, reduce it to Hardware (8 +rating, 1 hour) Extended Test sounds fair too).

2. Codes are most likely encrypted, so I'll need hacking + decrypt (I don't know if this is extended test by beating encrypt rating x 2, or just roll the dice vs. encrypt rating x 2, what do you think?).

3. Edit the program (this would probably need for, as Dantic mentioned, simsense, or if I get a chance to look at the CC 3rd ed for some rules for BTL, I might be able to modify it to fit into 4th and use it on all BTL type)

Now step 1-3 is just to prepare the BTL to make copies

4. Make copies, using my current rule or modified version later.

5. Encrypt each copies with Elec. Warfare + Encrypt skill check (or one extended test with one rating on all the BTL).

6. Start selling.

I'm not sure if #5 should be after editing or after copy. Comments?

Well, that's the skeleton of it. I'll go more indept into it, when I get the CC book.

Thanks for the comments, it really helped me.

PS. Again, just a thought, but do you think there would be Data Bombs? (I know I'm making my life little hard, but hey) Than, between step 1 and 2, I'll need matrix perception test and Defuse + Hacking test.

[Dantic]

It was just basic ideas to see how you all feel about it. Nothing final.

5. Encrypt each copies with Elec. Warfare + Encrypt skill check (or one extended test with one rating on all the BTL).

6. Start selling.

I'm not sure if #5 should be after editing or after copy. Comments?

PS. Again, just a thought, but do you think there would be Data Bombs? (I know I'm making my life little hard, but hey) Than, between step 1 and 2, I'll need matrix perception test and Defuse + Hacking test.

I'd say encrypt after making copies, but as as batch encryption to have seperate codes for each copy, or you could encrypt the whole thing and when you copied, all the copies would have the same decryption codes.

I think Data Bombs might be a very likely scenario, as I mentioned, any good quality BTL would be protected as much as possible by the manufacturer.

<EDIT> The more I think about it, the more I think a batch encryption after the copy with some sort of roatating algorithym to scramble the codes would be the way to go. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif) Whew, that was too much, but none the less, I say after with diffrent decrypt codes, because the basic end user product would be usable without decrypt (basicaly with read only privilages), but any attempt to edit the program, including copying it would require admin level access.

[WinterRat1]

I can tell you right now you're gonna need a lot more to get a ruleset approved. You won't have to go quite as far as, say, the Chemistry chapter in Arsenal, but the writeup is gonna have to be closer to that than a couple of paragraphs.

Think of it this way: how many questions went into describing your character? How many pages of writing? Writing less than that for the primary focus of your character's existence is practically an insult to that character's existence. What you're going to have to write to make this work is going to have to put the drug creation rules to shame. After all, drugs already existed in the main book; they had mechanical effects, prices, everything, along with the flavor text. All they needed was a Threshold and an interval to be complete.

BTLs? Don't. That's where you're going to have to begin, by statting up what each BTL does, how it does it, and how much it costs (don't let yourself be constrained by what's already written in houserule land here; houserules can be changed if the new rules are more persuasive and better written. Make it interesting; this is going to be your character's life, after all, so don't skimp on the details and the flavor.

When you're done there, then start thinking about actual production. What skills are necessary to produce a complete BTL, of each kind? Does it take multiple steps? (it should!) Is there a most important, or limiting step? What shortcuts can you make, and how does that affect things? Again, don't skimp on the details and flavor; this is your character's life and livelihood we're talking about here.

I couldn't have said it any better or clearer myself.

If you want I'd be glad to help out. I like making rulesets; if Drip ever got far enough along I was planning on writing custom vehicle creation and pricing rules, basically remaking Rigger 3 in 4th ed. I promise you, though, if I'm the one to write them they won't be easy; you absolutely won't be able to acquire all of the skills needed to do a first-rate job with 310 BPs, or probably even 400 BPs, because I believe that making a BTL from scratch should take as many skills as it takes to make and digitally remaster a full-length movie in the modern era, plus a few extra to deal with the emotive tracks. If I have a say in it, it'll "take a village" to get a good BTL shop going, and you'll need to get most of the other technical-minded gangers onboard--including Drip who lost his parents to chiphead fantasies--just as everyone'll have to get involved to put together a chopshop or a real drug lab (especially that last one; a significant part of my professional life has been devoted to knowing exactly how and why "Meth for Dummies" nearly always ends with a pile of bodies in a smoking crater). But I dearly love robust rulesets, so I'll be glad to help if you like. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I strongly suggest you take him up on this. As you've all probably figured out by now, I'm a demanding GM and for a project this large any help you can get will be a major benefit.

[HeySparky]

I just updated the Takes template page to reflect the current roster of active gangers (Based on the Roster page).

[Eyeless Blond]

Oh Lord, I think I'm gonna change out my car for a motorcycle. But not just any motorcycle; I'm going to pick up a Horizon Double Revolution, the most ridiculous looking vehicle in a series of ridiculous-looking vehicles. Not just because it comes with gyro stabalization, or that, even brand new, it's still cheaper than my sedan. No, I'm going to get it because it's a giant wheel, a wheel that you sit inside while driving. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

Giant Wheel! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/notworthy.gif)

[Whipstitch]

I like how it looks a lot like the vehicle Mr. Garrison invented on South Park. The integral smart tire, gyro stabilization and big handling bonus could be a huge benefit out in the Barrens too. There's no way the roads are in great condition (seriously, there's probably potholes out there that rival the grand canyon), and the last thing you need while trying to make a get away is a flat tire.

[Whipstitch]

I wish we could erase posts.

[Eyeless Blond]

Hm, though here's a question: do I need to add a sidecar to hold my Doberman? It doesn't look all that much like you'd be able to fit a drone in behind him, but then Drip is small... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Oh, and I also note that rigger adaptation does not specify that you need gyro stabilization to use it. In fact it looks like gyrofication just increases byt Handling of the bike when you're crashing.

[Whipstitch]

Page 103, Arsenal.
"Note that motorcycles are not capable of driving themselves unless they have the gyro stabilization modification (p. 140)."

And actually, I didn't mean to imply you can't "jump in," just that they cannot pilot themselves. You can rigger adapt it, but it's not going to roll around and balance on its own, apparently. Of course, this does beg the question: is it possible to drive a motorcycle while "jumped in" without a gyro stabilizer? After all, if your motor functions are cut out due to being under the influence of VR or because you're operating the thing remotely, how is it going to stay upright if it's dependent on you or accessories in order to stay stable? I always assumed that there was some form of gyro involved in all 2070s motorcycles to begin with, since there was no remote operation restrictions mentioned anywhere prior to Arsenal, but this kinda makes me think twice. Ah well, I won't be making any changes to my games over this; I'll just chalk it up as another of the many things in Shadowrun that make more sense the less you think about it and handwave like crazy. I do find it silly that they didn't organize things in such a manner that the line in question never makes an appearance under motorcycles or the modification referenced.

[Havok]

Whats funny is the fact that the way motorcycle engines work they automatically provide their own gyro effect. Thats why when you crash they tend to rip themselves out from under you. Just food for thought ^_^

By the way, you guys looking for a new player? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) I'm looking to play a 10 yr old runaway Tir Tairngire noble kid.

[lkim]

So, here are some problems that just bothers me and in need of help.

1. statting up what each BTL does.

More I think about it, I get confused. BTLs are, IMO, drugs that effects senses and mind of user. So, unlike other street drugs that actually effect the biology (I don't know if I'm using the right term here, maybe biological function?) of the user, BTL users would probably be happy, sad, raged, aroused, or something emotional (which are the Mood chip BTL), sensing something new and exotic like, smell of 1000 roses, seeing only in black and white, red and green, or something like hearing their own heart pumping up the blood (Trip chip BTL). Dream chip, would be just like some simsense movie flicks with amplified emotion, and P-fix is to become someone else.

So, that's my basic knowledge of BTL.

With that in mind, I have come up with some ideas of what they are, how they work, what's the side and after effect, and some price and availability.


Dream Chip (Rate 1-6)

Duration: 20 Min. x Rate
Effect: Put user in dreamlike state, where he can become anyone. Hero, criminal on the run, hot stud banging sexy elf, or whoever its in the program.
Side effect: User of Dream Chips are mostly unaware of their surrounding, even with RAS override feature disabled.
After effect: When Dream Chips are in use, users seems to be in rest or sleeping like state, they are not. Because of BTL's false signal to the brain, brain actually believes it's own body is active/moving. This makes the user feels fatigue, fear, or aroused depend on what program was running.
Price: Rate x 60
Availability: Rating + 1
Note: User may actively change their POV. Number of POV = Rate x 2

Trip Chip (Rate 1-6)

Duration: 10 Min. x Rate
Effect: Let user flooded with interesting visual (seeing everything in double, only seeing in one or two color), auditory (hearing user's own heart beat, or rushing of blood around body), tactile (feels every touch to be ecstasy), taste (everything you eat taste like chocolates or raw egg), and olfactory (smell of roses all around you where ever you go) sensations.
Side effect: While user is in the effect of Trip Chip, it makes them hard to perceive through that sense or senses.
After effect: After Trip Chip run its course, user is almost impossible to use that sense for periods of time equal to the duration.
Price: Rate x 40
Availability: Rating
Note: Each rating add additional sense in its program. At rate 6, however, it changes users sense like "see" the smell, "feel" the hearing, or "hear" the taste.

Mood Chip (Rate 1-6)

Duration: 30 Min. x Rate
Effect: User of Mood Chip feels what was recorded in the program. This can be range from euphoria to sexual urges to aggressive tendencies, and to dark feelings such as terror and hate.
Side effect: When user is in effect of Mood Chip, it is hard for user to feel other emotions. Example might be user feels sexual urges in the forensic lab while cutting the body open.
After effect: When Mood Chip run its course, user feels opposite feeling for the duration of time equal to the duration of Mood Chip.
Price: Rate x 50
Availability: Rating - 1
Note: Each rating of Mood Chip may add another emotion at the same time or have second course of different emotion, which in that case, opposite feeling comes in order.

I want to write more, but I'm too tired right now. So it will be continued around weekend.

Comments are always welcome!

[Bearclaw]

Rico is done, except for clean-up. Need to get his takes done, but I'm not sure who he knows yet and who he doesn't.

[WinterRat1]

Bearclaw –

I took a glance at Rico’s CS, and just off a quick glance, at the minimum you have to address the following issues:

1. Your Intimidation (Physical) skill and specialty exceeds our limit of 4. You will need to reduce this to max out at 4 somehow.

2. You still have contacts that are official NPCs on our NPC list. Vegas has explicitly stated multiple times this is not allowed. Please change your contacts accordingly. While you are there, Smokey Joe’s information is not going to be enough and will require more detail, because there is nothing there, for all functional purposes.

3.

Rico is done, except for clean-up. Need to get his takes done, but I'm not sure who he knows yet and who he doesn't.

As we have said over and over again you have to do takes for everyone. It doesn’t matter who he knows yet and who he doesn’t.

This is for what Rico’s initial impressions of all the other gang members are likely to be, based upon what you know of them from their character sheets on the wiki, what you’ve heard on the streets, what you know Rico is likely to respond with given how they’ve acted so far in the IC thread, etc. As you meet them in game and your opinions change, your takes section will be updated accordingly.

[Spike]

I just can't get the opening of La Femme Nikita out of my head...


"My name is RICOOOO!!!!!!"


Sorry...

[Eyeless Blond]

Well, the one thing that pops to mind right now is that there really ought to be a mechanical reason for someone to take a BTL, especially the higher-rating ones; otherwise the only time you'll see BTL use is so munchkins can pay 20 nuyen a week for a 5-point Flaw. You'll notice that all the other SR4 drugs do give a mechanical advantage, in order to lure the player (and thus the character) into ever-increasing levels of addiction and dependency.

Now, when it comes to BTLs, the main reason they're so popular is the escapism aspect: you literally become someone else. So, I think it would be neat if BTL chips would actually, at least for a time, allow you to become that other person, to borrow a piece of their mind, whether that be skill or attribute. In other words:

Dreamchip ("Clips"): Puts user in dreamlike state for (10 * Rating) Min. Afterwards, user gains the skill specialization most prominently featured during the Clip for (Rating) minutes after the program concludes, if he does not already have it. Typically Con(Seduction) for pornos (or whatever skill specialization you'd associate with sex), a combat skill for action movies, Perception or Data Search for detective dramas, etc. He gains the specialization even if he does not have any ranks in the actual skill.
-Aftereffect: The mind takes time to readjust back to how it was before. For the next (10 * Rating) min, the chipper is treated as being "Unaware" in whichever skill the chipper had previously gained a bonus in.

Moodchip ("Emotes"): Puts user in a heightened emotional state for (Rating) minutes. This state augments a single attribute (specified by the chip during programming stage) by 1 point.
-Aftereffect: Mind is stressed: whichever attribute was raised is now lowered by 2 points for (10 * Rating) minutes. If an attribute is lowered to 0 the chipper passes out for that time.

Tripchip ("Trips"): Combines effect of Moodchip and Dreamchip in a single chip, without the dreamlike prelude. Duration is (5*Rating) minutes.
-Aftereffect: Combined aftereffect of Moodchip and Dreamchip. Duration is (20*Rating) minutes

P-fix ("Brains"): Actually overwrites all of the chipper's skills with those in the chip; raises/lowers Attributes by 1, whichever is closer to person "encoded" on chip. Duration is (10*Rating) minutes (though most parlors put these chips on continuous loop), and can overwrite a maximum of (Rating) skills and (Rating) attributes.
-Aftereffect: Total amnesia for 30*Rating minutes. Treated as "Unaware" in all skills; all attributes that were raised are lowered by 2. Must make a Willpower+Body(1) test or amnesia is permanent.

Addiction thresholds would follow those in the book: Dreamchip = 1; Moodchip/P-fix = 2; Tripchip = 3. Costs would be Dream << Mood < Trip << P-fix, with Dreams starting on the order of 20*Rating nuyen a pop, Moods costing maybe 50*Rating or so, Trips 75*Rating, and P-fixes 100*Rating. Permanent or looped versions would cost 10x as much, 20x for p-fixes.

This is a very rough idea; I don't have my books on hand to cross-reference. But do you think it's a good idea to have it actually make sense to use BTLs?

[Spike]

I'm not to fond of that idea, Blond. I'm not the GM but I'm already a bit put off by just how wide ranging the effects of all those drugs are.

At best I'd image a P-Fix might give you access to some skills you might not, particularly if they were important to the programming of the chip ( a recording of a serial killer's persona might give points in blades and shadowing/intrusion... but on the other hand, you're a raving loony who's only going to use those skills against whatever fixation that killer had...)

But that's my take. And I'm just the dude in the corner who mumbles in russian as he works on cars... if you will...

[Eyeless Blond]

Hm. Yeah, I guess I didn't mention that part of the P-fix yet; I want to get home and look at the Possession rules in Street magic first. I think those might be a good base to work with, since a p-fix is essentially low-level formatting your brain with someone else's personality. That's kinda like being possessed, isn't it? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Jaid]

[edit] just clearing out apparently wasted space. [/edit]

This post has been edited by Jaid: Mar 30 2008, 12:20 AM

[Whipstitch]

I actually just simplified BTLs as being a specialized form of hotsim VR for all intents and purposes. You check out to lunch via RAS while it's active or else you can deactivate the RAS. That'll let you move around, but you still suffer a -6 Perception check penalty just for trying to perceive things outside of your li'l chiphead world. I also afflict people with the "10 minutes minus Willpower" disorientation penalty you suffer from dumpshock after they're done with a BTL, but not the damage. Toss in the fact that at least once a week I am well within my rights to ask you to pop in your chip of choice or suffer a dicepool penalty equal to the chip's addiction threshold whenever I feel like it, and I'd say a btl addiction is more than fair.

[Spike]

Yay!! All of Maus's takes are up, for what it's worth.

Got a little heavy handed on the Russian Slang once I had the resources I needed to start adding it in (yeah, I don't speak Russian, what of it? Wanna make someothing of it you damn zopa?!), especially since his mostly interal monologue would either be entirely in Russian (and unreadably babblefished) or entirely translated, but hey, if everyone else tosses slang around, why not me?

Also, totally lost the voice of the character on Will for some reason. Got superstitious when dealing with the obvious mage, my poetic soul cried out... whatever. I'm too braindead to fix it right now, and unless I'm mistaken we're due to begin any time now (us newbs, that is...)


Don't ask for translations unless you want some REAL colorful language. I think I've found a new muse for swearing.... :swoon:

[Dantic]

now if only there was some kind of generic rules around for kits, shops, and facilities that can be used to produce things...

oh wait, look! it's right in the BBB. tool kits, shops, and facilities, usable to produce whatever it is the kit, shop, or facility is used for (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) (i assume the 'actors' would still need to have simrigs etc, and that the kits and so forth would be used for editing the various tracks and whatnot)

honestly, why make up something new when rules already exist for it?

Honestly, if your going to be a smart ass, get it right. Kits, shops etc are just the thing if you are going to make a physical chip to load the BTL onto. What we are discussing is the software portion of the BTL, which is definitely a matrix action. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif)

[Dantic]

More I think about it, I get confused. BTLs are, IMO, drugs that effects senses and mind of user. So, unlike other street drugs that actually effect the biology (I don't know if I'm using the right term here, maybe biological function?) of the user, BTL users would probably be happy, sad, raged, aroused, or something emotional (which are the Mood chip BTL), sensing something new and exotic like, smell of 1000 roses, seeing only in black and white, red and green, or something like hearing their own heart pumping up the blood (Trip chip BTL). Dream chip, would be just like some simsense movie flicks with amplified emotion, and P-fix is to become someone else.

Trip Chip (Rate 1-6)

Duration: 10 Min. x Rate
Effect: Let user flooded with interesting visual (seeing everything in double, only seeing in one or two color), auditory (hearing user's own heart beat, or rushing of blood around body), tactile (feels every touch to be ecstasy), taste (everything you eat taste like chocolates or raw egg), and olfactory (smell of roses all around you where ever you go) sensations.
Side effect: While user is in the effect of Trip Chip, it makes them hard to perceive through that sense or senses.
After effect: After Trip Chip run its course, user is almost impossible to use that sense for periods of time equal to the duration.
Price: Rate x 40
Availability: Rating
Note: Each rating add additional sense in its program. At rate 6, however, it changes users sense like "see" the smell, "feel" the hearing, or "hear" the taste.

Comments are always welcome!

BTLs do affect the mind of the user, but through the mind it essentially has access to the entire nervous system and thus the whole body. RAS prevents this from becoming an issue with most common chips, but when you start getting into P-fixes and bunraku sex puppets this control of the nervous system becomes vital, allowing the mimicking of quirks from the original into the puppet.

I like the part about trip chips allowing you to change senses, this is the kind of things trip chips are supposed to do.