IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

6 Pages V   1 2 3 > »   
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Multiple Interrupt actions....
Abbandon
post Mar 4 2008, 04:59 PM
Post #1


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,711
Joined: 15-June 06
Member No.: 8,716



Ok...

Bob win intitiative and bitch slaps his opponent and then uses his finish move manuever from his martial arts quality to follow that up with a second bitch slap to the Troll Bouncer.....Then the Troll Bouncer gets initiative and trys to grapple Bob by the balls but Bob goes on full defense.....

How does this play out if Bob has...
3 ip's.... (1st and 2nd bitch slaps are 1st and 2nd ip's and then his full defense eats up his 3rd?)
2 ip's... (1st and 2nd ip's are bitch slaps and the 1st ip of his next turn is full defense??)
1 ip.....(1st turn bitch slap, 2nd turn bitch slap, 3 turn full defense)

How far into future IP's/Turns can you dip?? What would happen if instead of going on full defense he trys to kick the Troll in the balls with his 3rd IP would he get a follow up attack which would eat up the 1st ip of his next turn???

I dont have arsenal so there is probably a sentence in "finishing move" or something that says it has to be in the same turn but I figured I would ask.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ArkonC
post Mar 4 2008, 05:18 PM
Post #2


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 536
Joined: 25-January 08
From: Can I crash on your couch?
Member No.: 15,483



I've actually wondered about this too...
QUOTE ('Arsenal p. 160')
Riposte
A character with Riposte who successfully parries or blocks a melee combat attack may make an immediate attack on her attacker, even if it is not her Action Phase in the turn. Making a riposte is considered an interrupt action, however, and uses up the character’s next available action.

QUOTE ('Arsenal p. 159')
Finishing Move
A character with this maneuver who has succeeded in striking an opponent (whether damage is inflicted or not) may immediately follow that attack up with a move designed to finish the opponent off. This allows the character to make an immediate follow-up melee attack in the same Action Phase. Finishing Move counts as an interrupt action and uses up the character’s next available action.

So let's say Old-Blind-Master™ with only 1 IP gets attacked by 4 guys...
The first one tries to hit, Old-Blind-Master™ blocks and get a riposte attack, it hits, he gets to do a finish move, baddy number 1 goes down...
The second one tries to hit, Old-Blind-Master™ blocks and get a riposte attack, it hits, he gets to do a finish move, baddy number 2 goes down...
The third one tries to hit, Old-Blind-Master™ blocks and get a riposte attack, it hits, he gets to do a finish move, baddy number 3 goes down...
The fourth one misses, now it would be Old-Blind-Master™ turn, but he gave it up with his first riposte...
In turn 2, Old-Blind-Master™ still cannot do anything, because of the first finishing move, in fact he'll have to wait until turn 7 before he can act again, provided he doesn't block, riposte and finish the last guy...

IS that correct? Or am I also missing some obvious things?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Daier Mune
post Mar 4 2008, 05:19 PM
Post #3


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 346
Joined: 17-January 08
Member No.: 15,341



i'd say you can reserve up to as many IPs as you have in a round of initative. 3 passes = 3 passes, it just depends on when you take them.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
BlackHat
post Mar 4 2008, 06:39 PM
Post #4


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,486
Joined: 17-March 05
From: Michigan
Member No.: 7,180



Yeah, this hits on something that has been mentioned in the arsenal threads. Nowhere does it say that you can't keep barrowing actions - just that an interrupt action takes the place of your next "available" action... which, by some definition might be several rounds from now since you keep barrowing actions (making them un"available") - which makes the next "available" action some time from now.

It also doesn't say that these maneuvers can only be used once per phase (or even once per attack). You could hit someone, then, because you hit him use finishing move to attack again and hit, then because you hit use finishing move to attack again... and so on and so on until you miss. Afterwards, you might not be able to act again for a few minutes - but if that was the only opponent, it might not matter.

I doubt that is how the rules were intended, but with no real clarification on what "next available action" means, that is one valid interpretation.

I do agree that a mundane martial artist (1 IP) should be able to use interrupt maneuvers. So I wouldn't use Daier Mune's interpretation - but I also probably wouldn't let a PC pull a 100-hit combo on an enemy (which, if you have set-up becomes easier and more deadly the longer you keep the combo going). *shrugs*
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Abbandon
post Mar 4 2008, 06:54 PM
Post #5


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,711
Joined: 15-June 06
Member No.: 8,716



Heh you trouble maker Blackhat! There are no cascading responses, there are no agent smiths, there are no infinite finish moves. You get to make one follow up attack per "normal" hit.

I'd also be againt riposte + finishing move. If you block an attack you get a riposte attack which isnt a "normal" attack that is used for finishing move.

Thats something we need a ruling on though.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
BlackHat
post Mar 4 2008, 06:59 PM
Post #6


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,486
Joined: 17-March 05
From: Michigan
Member No.: 7,180



There is one example in Arsenal where they say you can string together maneuvers. Set-up + Finishing move, I believe is the example.

As for the rest of that, I'm not saying *I* would allow it... just that the rules as written don't prevent it. Since you're asking about the game you're starting soon, you'll pretty much need to make up your own ruling. Allowing one interrupt action per normal attack might be fine, but the combination of reposite + finishing move (or set up, or whatever else) is something that a player who owns arsenal might expect. As long as you and the player in question can agree ahead of time on it, it shouldn't be an issue.

Unfortunately (as has been brought up in other topics, before) a large amount of the Shadowrun rules seem to need to be agreed upon with a GM prior to their inclusion or exclusion, since they're unclear.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Nightwalker450
post Mar 4 2008, 08:09 PM
Post #7


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 698
Joined: 26-October 06
From: Iowa, United States
Member No.: 9,720



I haven't read too deeply in detail on this. But I'd only allow you to borrow one ahead of where you are. So you borrow one, and until that turn comes you can't borrow another. Once that turn passes, you can borrow again even if you weren't able to act on that one.

Otherwise between Full Defense / Riposte / Finishing Move, it doesn't matter how many passes you have any more you can act when and how you want, just eventually you might need to stand and stare at a wall for a few minutes which doesn't make sense in any of the rules.

"Hey chummer, he's dead we need to go before reinforcements arrive... You ok, why you just standing there?"

"Gimme 30 seconds, that last combo seems to have paralyzed me."
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hobgoblin
post Mar 4 2008, 08:14 PM
Post #8


panda!
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 10,331
Joined: 8-March 02
From: north of central europe
Member No.: 2,242



heh, looks like they brought back the old master that could defeat a higher ip foe as long as old master never goes on the offensive (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
(yep, referring to that old standing SR close combat artifact that supposedly was gone in SR4. at least now it takes some points of actual advantages)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Myddrin
post Mar 4 2008, 08:44 PM
Post #9


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 3
Joined: 4-March 08
Member No.: 15,738



Only allowing them to borrow 1 action is certainly a legitimate approach, but it does seem a little to limiting, especially with Arsenal giving other "action borrowing" choices.

Unlimted action borrowing, I'm surprised know one caught that..you would think something that exploitable would have at least engendered some errata to prevent that.

Here's my idea.. a "cap" on the numbered of borrowed actions equal to 1/2 your reaction rounded up. (and you regain said actions at a rate=your number of IP's per round) I think this gives your high reaction/1 IP zen master on a relatvily equal footing to a single multiple IP opponent or multiple grunts, but a couple of chromed up samurai (or psy ads) could still take him out.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Herald of Verjig...
post Mar 4 2008, 08:59 PM
Post #10


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 3,066
Joined: 5-February 03
Member No.: 4,017



QUOTE (Nightwalker450 @ Mar 4 2008, 03:09 PM) *
Otherwise between Full Defense / Riposte / Finishing Move, it doesn't matter how many passes you have any more you can act when and how you want, just eventually you might need to stand and stare at a wall for a few minutes which doesn't make sense in any of the rules.
That seems like a quality character concept though. He can take down an army of melee mooks, but then passes out for a few minutes until all his borrowed actions catch up. Toss in some heavy ballistic armor (material and magical, and maybe miscellaneous) so he's fairly protected against casual ranged attacks while the rest of the team works on other threats.

Even better against pack critters, since they don't tend to have guns at all.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
deek
post Mar 4 2008, 09:35 PM
Post #11


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,706
Joined: 30-June 06
From: Fort Wayne, IN
Member No.: 8,814



I don't know if everyone is overlooking this or not, but the limiting factor is already there. Each defended attack is giving a -1 DP. So yeah, your old master is going to be able to continue to borrow actions to infinity, but his DP is finite, and he's eventually going to run out of effective DP on his counters.

Same thing with Full Defense, really. Give me 20 mooks all attacking the same runner, and those last 5 or so are going to have a field day!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
BlackHat
post Mar 4 2008, 09:38 PM
Post #12


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,486
Joined: 17-March 05
From: Michigan
Member No.: 7,180



That's not bad. I had not thought of that. That ties up the defensive maneuvers rather nicely.
Stacking finishing moves also limits itself eventually, since the PC might miss at some point. (Although that becomes less likely as your opponent gets wailed on).
You could still slap step-up on someone all day long, though, since each one adds dice to the next one. When you finally finish with a finishing move, you can have a dice pool as high as you want - and I'm certain that the authors didn't intend this.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ArkonC
post Mar 4 2008, 09:43 PM
Post #13


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 536
Joined: 25-January 08
From: Can I crash on your couch?
Member No.: 15,483



QUOTE (deek @ Mar 4 2008, 10:35 PM) *
I don't know if everyone is overlooking this or not, but the limiting factor is already there. Each defended attack is giving a -1 DP. So yeah, your old master is going to be able to continue to borrow actions to infinity, but his DP is finite, and he's eventually going to run out of effective DP on his counters.

Same thing with Full Defense, really. Give me 20 mooks all attacking the same runner, and those last 5 or so are going to have a field day!

Well, looks like you've missed the point...
It's not about the defense, it's about the interrupt actions that take away your next available one...
So how does the defense penalty help stop the infinite combo attack?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
deek
post Mar 4 2008, 09:56 PM
Post #14


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,706
Joined: 30-June 06
From: Fort Wayne, IN
Member No.: 8,814



QUOTE (ArkonC @ Mar 4 2008, 04:43 PM) *
Well, looks like you've missed the point...
It's not about the defense, it's about the interrupt actions that take away your next available one...
So how does the defense penalty help stop the infinite combo attack?

Well, its stops it by not allowing it to be effective. Let's say the defender has a DP of 30 and he is fighting 50 mooks. In the first IP, let's say that every one of the 50 mooks attack. So, assuming no DP modifiers except for the defense penalty, after 25 of the mooks attack (which the old master has used an interrupt action to defend, thus borrowing his next 25 actions), he is down to a DP of 5. Is he really going to want to interrupt again, trading his 5 DP interrupt attack for his 26th action?

At some point, that defense penalty adds up and will force the old man to stop interrupting. After 30 mooks, old man has no more dice. Sure, by the rules, he could still interrupt after the 30th mook, borrow a future action and all, but he has 0 DP to do anything...so what's the point?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
samuelbeckett
post Mar 4 2008, 10:33 PM
Post #15


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 160
Joined: 8-February 08
Member No.: 15,664



I think you are both missing the point... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Technically you are both right - provided the Blind Master can block or parry, he can then use an interrupt action to Riposte, followed by an interrupt action for Finishing Move if the Riposte attack is successful. This could continue ad infinitum expect for one important point - for each subsequent attack he has to block or parry, he loses 1 from his DP (of course Watchful Guard could drop that penalty for the second attack, but that is slightly beside the point). Given the maximum DP anyone can achieve is around the 32 mark (presuming he begins this epic display with a Full Defense interrupt action), he would have to stop after his 32nd defense.

Of course, then you could start pulling out Longshot tests based on Edge to continue the cycle, but that would likely lead to a sudden death by GM.

Yes, this does mean the Blind Master will have stolen his next 32 turns of actions and will have to stand still for that length of time (visualise him collapsing on the floor from exhaustion if it makes you feel better).
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hobgoblin
post Mar 4 2008, 11:09 PM
Post #16


panda!
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 10,331
Joined: 8-March 02
From: north of central europe
Member No.: 2,242



so, with one round being something in the area of 3 seconds, thats what 1.5 mins of rest before he is back in action?

and if he has 3 ip's he could get away with what, 10 seconds of rest?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Daier Mune
post Mar 5 2008, 12:04 AM
Post #17


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 346
Joined: 17-January 08
Member No.: 15,341



i think you're taking the interrupt actions a bit too literal. i don't think that after completing your interrupt action you stand still waiting for orders like a drone. the 'taking up the next action' portion of the text (i assume) means that you can't take an action, because you're already taking your action (by full dodging, riposting, or finishing moving). and again, i don't think that interrupt actions should extend beyond the current initiative roll.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Slymoon
post Mar 5 2008, 12:07 AM
Post #18


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 201
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 862



QUOTE (Daier Mune @ Mar 4 2008, 06:04 PM) *
i think you're taking the interrupt actions a bit too literal. i don't think that after completing your interrupt action you stand still waiting for orders like a drone. the 'taking up the next action' portion of the text (i assume) means that you can't take an action, because you're already taking your action (by full dodging, riposting, or finishing moving). and again, i don't think that interrupt actions should extend beyond the current initiative roll.



While I agree with this at first does this mean that:
1. You can never interrupt action on your last IP
2. Persons with 1 IP can never interrupt action.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Fortune
post Mar 5 2008, 12:15 AM
Post #19


Immoral Elf
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 15,247
Joined: 29-March 02
From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat
Member No.: 2,486



QUOTE (Daier Mune)
i don't think that interrupt actions should extend beyond the current initiative roll.


That little rule is already broken when it comes to Full Defense (an interrupt action), or is it your contention that characters with 1 IP cannot ever use Full Defense?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Daier Mune
post Mar 5 2008, 12:22 AM
Post #20


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 346
Joined: 17-January 08
Member No.: 15,341



full defense extends over new initiative rolls? huh. wasn't aware of that, and i'm upset that i know that now. it just doesnt make sense to me.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hobgoblin
post Mar 5 2008, 12:26 AM
Post #21


panda!
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 10,331
Joined: 8-March 02
From: north of central europe
Member No.: 2,242



one thing about full defense, one can either initiate it on ones pass, or any time before using a interrupt action...

so a 1 ip character could go full defense when attacked by someone else with higher initiative, forgoing his action for that round, and maintain full defense for the whole round. that would be he only action for that whole round tho...

full defense, ones activated, last until the characters next initiative pass iirc.

sadly that does not explain how to deal with interrupt actions as used in martial arts, as they can show up at any time...
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Fortune
post Mar 5 2008, 12:42 AM
Post #22


Immoral Elf
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 15,247
Joined: 29-March 02
From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat
Member No.: 2,486



QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Mar 5 2008, 11:26 AM) *
one thing about full defense, one can either initiate it on ones pass, or any time before using a interrupt action...

so a 1 ip character could go full defense when attacked by someone else with higher initiative, forgoing his action for that round, and maintain full defense for the whole round. that would be he only action for that whole round tho...


Alternately, a character could choose to use his Action normally, and then immediately declare Full Defense, which would use his next Action. If he only had the one IP, then that next Action will come in the following round.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hobgoblin
post Mar 5 2008, 12:44 AM
Post #23


panda!
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 10,331
Joined: 8-March 02
From: north of central europe
Member No.: 2,242



and if there isnt any following round?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Fortune
post Mar 5 2008, 12:49 AM
Post #24


Immoral Elf
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 15,247
Joined: 29-March 02
From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat
Member No.: 2,486



Then the character stands around in a wary crouch for a couple of seconds.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ArkonC
post Mar 5 2008, 01:13 AM
Post #25


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 536
Joined: 25-January 08
From: Can I crash on your couch?
Member No.: 15,483



QUOTE (deek @ Mar 4 2008, 10:56 PM) *
Well, its stops it by not allowing it to be effective. Let's say the defender has a DP of 30 and he is fighting 50 mooks. In the first IP, let's say that every one of the 50 mooks attack. So, assuming no DP modifiers except for the defense penalty, after 25 of the mooks attack (which the old master has used an interrupt action to defend, thus borrowing his next 25 actions), he is down to a DP of 5. Is he really going to want to interrupt again, trading his 5 DP interrupt attack for his 26th action?

At some point, that defense penalty adds up and will force the old man to stop interrupting. After 30 mooks, old man has no more dice. Sure, by the rules, he could still interrupt after the 30th mook, borrow a future action and all, but he has 0 DP to do anything...so what's the point?



QUOTE (samuelbeckett @ Mar 4 2008, 11:33 PM) *
I think you are both missing the point... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Technically you are both right - provided the Blind Master can block or parry, he can then use an interrupt action to Riposte, followed by an interrupt action for Finishing Move if the Riposte attack is successful. This could continue ad infinitum expect for one important point - for each subsequent attack he has to block or parry, he loses 1 from his DP (of course Watchful Guard could drop that penalty for the second attack, but that is slightly beside the point). Given the maximum DP anyone can achieve is around the 32 mark (presuming he begins this epic display with a Full Defense interrupt action), he would have to stop after his 32nd defense.

Of course, then you could start pulling out Longshot tests based on Edge to continue the cycle, but that would likely lead to a sudden death by GM.

Yes, this does mean the Blind Master will have stolen his next 32 turns of actions and will have to stand still for that length of time (visualise him collapsing on the floor from exhaustion if it makes you feel better).

All right, I was in a rush, I should have been clearer, yes, this does, in a fashion, limit defensive interrupt actions, but what about offensive interrupt actions...
I hit you, I have finish move, I get to go again, I hit you, I have finish move, I get to go again, I hit you... You see the pattern...
Nothing in RAW prohibits this, no reduction in DP, meaning, if the man is also cripple, and fighting a cyberzombie troll with a 3 defensive DP, the old man can keep punching until he misses (unlikely) or he knocks out the troll (unlikely and he can contunie to punch anyway) meaning that theoretically, I can use up all my action for the next 3 days in combat rounds and still keep going...
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

6 Pages V   1 2 3 > » 
Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 28th March 2024 - 08:49 AM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.