Contended RAW, What needs consensus Options

[Prime Mover]

Knowledge skills: I base thresholds on obscurity.

Dice Pools: Avg npc 4-8 / PC and "profesionals" 8-up,obviously adjusted by race and situation.

Set of Wounds: This can be a messy damage management situation from the heal spell, if I'm shot twice can
I have Heal spell cast on me twice? Or cast on me once and then again if I'm wounded again. I go with the latter, one heal spell then can be cast again if I'm wounded again.

Drain: Drugs and rest, stim patches or other stimulants or rest.

Skill Max: Max is 7, if going with attribute rules bonus dice still count but not direct skill mods?

Brain Hacking: Is the bastard child of Dumpshock and a gypsy fortune teller.

Spell Targeting: Seen this answered here on DS and think in FAQ ultrasound and I believe radar create a
view from information as opposed to enhancing what your already seeing. So no
spell targeting?

Limbs: To keep it simple I average total body stats natural+cyber arm,leg,torso and head.

[Prime Mover]

Gotta go with Abb on Ally spirit thought. Why would'nt ally be able to do what normal summoned spirit could? Not an added game breaker if it can already be done another way..right?

[Spike]

Gotta go with Abb on Ally spirit thought. Why would'nt ally be able to do what normal summoned spirit could? Not an added game breaker if it can already be done another way..right?

Well, I'm no expert, but I suspect that on a normal spirt, sustaining a spell is a service. If its like Sprites and threading (which, oddly, I DO remember) then it's a service ever round or somesuch.

An ally spirit has essentially 'unlimited services' which means you summon once and sustain indefinitely, whereas with an ordinary spirit you would have to summon new ones constantly as you burned their services on sustaining...

I can see how that is somewhat broken, can't you?

[crizh]

What I don't really understand about the Ally sustaining thing is that Allies have the 'Magician' quality. Why cast a spell yourself and suffer the drain when you can have your Ally do it for you? Your Ally can maintain as many spells as it has dice to keep casting them, which seems like a reasonable way to limit the number.

[Prime Mover]

Standard spirit would use a service yes. But that service is'nt one round it would be till it's time was up would'nt it? How does that make the ally more useful other then resummoning or using additional services? It's just a convenience issue then.

[Whipstitch]

A convenience issue that could very well get you killed. Constant conjuring is safe if you stick within your limits, work within a safe area and have little else for your Spirits to do, but since we're talking about shadowrunners here I'm going to go out on a limb here and say those things aren't always an option. Sustaining foci have a pretty wide array of limitations you have to work around, and making Ally Spirits capable of sustaining any spell you please for as long as you want without counting against your bound spirits or bound/active focus limit is pretty silly. As for whether they're connected to a specific metaplane or not, that is neither here nor there, especially since ally spirits are shaped by the designer of their formula. They're not earth, blood or fire spirits, they're ally spirits-- magical chimeras cobbled together by an initiate who cherry picks some of the powers used by spirits they can normally summon and nothing more.

[crizh]

Nah.

It's measured in seconds per service used.

It has always been useless, all the way back to SR1. You can burn force to make it last longer but that's a long walk of a short pier in the long-run.

[Prime Mover]

One service is used in spirits force x services owed combat turns. 179 BBB

A force 5 spirit with 4 services owed could sustain a spell for 20 combat turns......I don't have many combats that last 20 combat turns. I don't see giving an ally the same ability a break.

Binding opens up a nastier can of worms...does it deplete the allies force?

[Slymoon]

One service is used in spirits force x services owed combat turns. 179 BBB

A force 5 spirit with 4 services owed could sustain a spell for 20 combat turns......I don't have many combats that last 20 combat turns. I don't see giving an ally the same ability a break.

Binding opens up a nastier can of worms...does it deplete the allies force?

By the same logic:
Force 5 ally x infinite services = infinite time.

[BlackHat]

Lol, didn't see page two.

[Abbandon]

-You dump all that karma into ally's to get extra cool abilities like infinite spell sustaining.
-Having it cast the spells would be bad because each sustained spell is -2 to their spellcasting.
-If your ally spirit gets geeked which metaplane do you goto to help it return quicker Street Magic pg 94 Disruption
-pg 103 SM: Ally Spirit Formula can also be gained via a metaplaner quest..
-pg 105 SM: Native Plane. Spirit plane is specified in formula, doesnt necessarily grant abilities/powers of that plane..
-Ally spirits can perform any service possable of an unbound/bound spirit... pg 105 SM open-ended service

[crizh]

One service is used in spirits force x services owed combat turns. 179 BBB

A force 5 spirit with 4 services owed could sustain a spell for 20 combat turns......I don't have many combats that last 20 combat turns. I don't see giving an ally the same ability a break.

Binding opens up a nastier can of worms...does it deplete the allies force?

Like I said Forcex3 seconds per service owed. The only real use I can see for that is healing.

As you point out combat doesn't last long, by the time you've gotten any augmentation spells cast and handed off to a Spirit it's all over bar the shouting.

That's why an Ally able to sustain spells indefinitely is so potentially broken. It doesn't need LOS so it isn't vulnerable like Sustaining Foci and Quickening and it don't cost nothing.

[Prime Mover]

So not as vulnerable as foci or quickening.....but really no different then a summoned spirit.

[crizh]

So not as vulnerable as foci or quickening.....but really no different then a summoned spirit.

No.

With an Ally you can be running around with Increased Reflexes (4), Armour (10), etc, etc, 24/7

Sustained by an Ally sitting at home behind a huge-ass Barrier those spells are untouchable, no Astral Forms to attack or run into Barriers, only thing you have to worry about is counterspelling.

[samuelbeckett]

So not as vulnerable as foci or quickening.....but really no different then a summoned spirit.

Sorry man, but you seem to be missing the point. Yes a summoned spirit can sustain a spell for 20 combat rounds, but that requires you to cast the spell as and when you need it.

If ally spirits worked as Abbandon and you would like it to, you could just cast the spell in the privacy of your own home and then it would be sustained indefinitely.

If you can't see where that is a problem, then I'm not sure what else I can say.

[Whipstitch]

Yeah, you have to remember that you also have to dump karma into binding foci to get cool sustained abilities without an ally as well as spend cash on getting the focus in the first place; that's a bit expensive you consider that you'll likely want things like Illusion Foci to be taken at Force 4 in order to have the option of beating object resistance. While it is indeed even more expensive to initiate and whip up say, a force 3 or 4 ally spirit, it's not so bad when you consider you've got an extra loyal spirit buddy who can provide bread and butter powers like Concealment, Movement or Guard 24/7 with no fuss or can be given a skill you know but haven't invested many points in. Remember, any skills it picks up from you at its creation are considered to be at a rating equal to its Force, so knowing the basics of a useful skill like First Aid and creating a Force 4 Ally with said First Aid skill can be quite handy when you're bleeding to death. And as I said before, an ally spirit doesn't contribute to your bound spirit or foci cap. They don't really need to double as a sustaining focus to justifiy their existence.

[Whipstitch]

Bleh.

[Prime Mover]

Just apples and oranges...if cast three spells before combat and tell the spirit to sustain and then go hide I've used 3 IP. With an ally I've used none. Looking forward to the Street Magic errata on this stuff.

[samuelbeckett]

Just apples and oranges...if cast three spells before combat and tell the spirit to sustain and then go hide I've used 3 IP. With an ally I've used none. Looking forward to the Street Magic errata on this stuff.

You are saying the difference between having 3 IP to use and not having 3 IP to use is not a material difference??

Plus you have to be aware you need to cast the spells before the combat, which means you have to be aware of the combat - with an Ally spirit sustaining indefinitely you don't have to be aware of anything at all 'cause the spells are always there.

Again, if this is not broken to you, I'm running out of ways to clarify...

[Prime Mover]

No you were very clear the first time and I get it. Guess just playing devils advocate in an attempt to rationalize RAW. I know hoping we'll get a clarification is only a maybe and I hate to have notebook full of house rules if I can help it. And I hate removing bits of RAW without giving benefit of the doubt. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[crizh]

I think Frank was pretty clear that it was an error.

I can't understand why he hasn't arranged for the FAQ to be updated at the very least.

I mean seriously this is the internet, it wouldn't take 20 seconds to do...

[BlackHat]

I am sure there is a fair amount of bureaucracy to arm-wrestle with to make any official ruling.

[crizh]

I was under the impression that Catalyst was a pretty small outfit. Like about a dozen guys?

How much bureaucracy can there be?

[WearzManySkins]

I was under the impression that Catalyst was a pretty small outfit. Like about a dozen guys?

How much bureaucracy can there be?

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Beware of peeking behind the curtain of the Wizard of Oz,, you may not like what you see. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

If there are 12 persons, do they all agree? if not how do you make a ruling/clarification?

WMS

[crizh]

That's what those big metal D20's are for...