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> Basic Spell Force Question
Arkelias
post Aug 19 2003, 08:37 PM
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Ok, I understand why a high force on a resisted spell is needed. The higher the force the harder to resist. Some spells also have limits based on the force of the spell (like enhanced aim). I can't get more dice or bonuses than the force or half of the force of the spell.

But what about spells like Improved Reflexes? From what I can tell a force 1 spell is just as effective as a force 6. Now granted force 1 spells are easy to dispell, but is there any other reason why you would want a higher force on non-resisted spells?

I just feel like I must be missing something...
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Talia Invierno
post Aug 19 2003, 08:40 PM
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Lower Force spells are easier for another person to dispell. If you're sustaining something like Improved Reflexes, first thing I would do, opposing you, is to try to dispell it.

Another reason might be background count: some groups count each point as an automatic 1, making it far more likely to botch with a low Force spell.
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Arkelias
post Aug 19 2003, 08:48 PM
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The dispelling I understand. Background count I am less familiar with. I thought that it just added its rating to the difficulty of spells?

Oh, and thanks for the help ^_^
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Sphynx
post Aug 19 2003, 08:49 PM
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Not to mention Wards, which are EXTREMELY common in private areas. You need at LEAST a Force 3 to get through a Force 5+ Ward, and Force 3 is a decently defendable against quick dispelling, especially with Inc Reflexes-3 since it has a high drain.

Personally, the only reason I take a Force 6 Inc-Reflexes is to Quicken it (you can spend 12 Karma to make it a real improbability you ever have to re-cast it again). If I didn't do that, I'd not take it over Force 3. Stuff I don't plan to Quicken, but want to make sure do NOT get dispelled (like Armour) I take at Force 5 (slightly easier drain), anything else that's not life-saving, I take at 3 usually.

Sphynx
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booklord
post Aug 19 2003, 08:53 PM
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Of course if the magician is good at masking a low force is a plus.
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Arkelias
post Aug 19 2003, 08:55 PM
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Sounds like good advice Sphynx. My logic was this:

If I take spells like Increased Reflexes at a low force I can wait until I am inside and past the wards to cast them, and then use a sustaining focus.

Quickening seems like one reason to have them at a higher force, but aren't they then next to impossible to mask?
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Ancient History
post Aug 19 2003, 08:58 PM
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Every spell has a built-in limit on the effect it can have; usually based on force.

For an example, a guy will be just as dead with a Force 20 manabolt as a Force 15, and you'll still keel over sideways from the drain.

The only reason to get higher Force spells is:

1) You want them to be harder to resist. Some people aare tough, some have innate or layered defenses your spell has to get through.

2) You want them to be harder to dispel. You're going up against people who are at least as good as you, and you want to hit them with something they can't wave a hand at and make go away.

3) You want to cast them uner adverse conditions. Really a matter of other factors, but when you're stuck in the astral hole that is the Cermak Blast Crater and need to really burn the damn Ant Queen before she eats you, a big honkin' spell will help.

4) You want a greater effect. Spells don't always have an upper limit. The higher Force your Clean Water spell, the more water you can clean. You'll never clean up the ocean in one go, but you sure as Hell can make the purple cloud go away if you pee in the pool.

5) You want to Quicken said spell. Like #2, only more so. You've got the squared centimeters of skin to spare, a bunch of hand-squeezed radical octopus inks, and you don't want Mr. Dragon huffing and puffing and telling your Enhance Aim spell on bard the Bowman to go away.

6) You want money. People pay for higher force spells: forumale, Quickening, casting, teaching, you name it.
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The White Dwarf
post Aug 19 2003, 09:25 PM
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Youre missing nothing. Indeed a few spells, such as the improved reflexes one you mention, 'fall through the cracks', so to speak, of magic logic. Normally you would need force 3 to get +3, but that particular spell works otherwise. So, dispelling aside, there really isnt a reason to go high force on that one. But in most cases higher force is better, assuming you can take the drain.
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Ancient History
post Aug 19 2003, 09:40 PM
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A note: the highest yet recorded spell in canon had a Force of 40.

The Great Ghost Dance and Reforestation Formulae are another thing entirely.
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Everial
post Aug 19 2003, 11:02 PM
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Um... TN 80 to learn that spell... why even bother?
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Reth
post Aug 19 2003, 11:07 PM
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Force 40. What spell was that and who cast it Ancient. Just curious????
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Ancient History
post Aug 19 2003, 11:12 PM
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Harlequin's Back, a Mask spell, Vivian (or whatever the hell her name was).

Now, on the Physical Plane, the highest Force spell I've seen is 12.
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Reth
post Aug 19 2003, 11:19 PM
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Is it just me or does NPC's from SRII generally have higher force spells than in SRIII???
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Talia Invierno
post Aug 20 2003, 12:03 AM
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Muy bad. Re background count: either that was an earlier incarnation of the rules, or else a house rule slipped in there somewhere without our realising. Sorry about that. (Appropriate shift also for the scenarios in the infiltration thread, if that one's still alive.)

Otherwise: what Ancient History et al said.

PS. Sorry for the delay of response. This site is not compatible with Netscape.
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Glyph
post Aug 20 2003, 12:55 AM
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For most spells, Force makes a difference, whether it be maximum successes, difficulty of resisting it, etc. A few of them are not affected by what force you cast them at, such as Increased Reflexes. For Increased Reflexes, though, the difficulty of dispelling it is a valid limitation, because it is mainly used in combat, and it is relatively obvious (the enemy can see that you're reacting faster). Therefore, you might consider getting it at a Force that makes it harder to dispell. It depends on how often enemy mages actually attempt dispelling, and how important the Increased Reflexes are to have "on" when you need them.

I tend to go with the "low force and mask it" approach, although a higher Force spell is good when you have to move through a warded area quickly, with no regard for stealth. I often wind up taking Increased Reflexes +3 at Force: 1 or 3. Force 5 or 6 would be better, but even if I have 50 spell points I still have to make a lot of compromises and careful point allocations to get the starting spells that I want.
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Ancient History
post Aug 20 2003, 03:24 AM
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Please note: "if you Initiate, your spells don't have to be low-forced because you can mask them!"

Please also note: "If you initiate, you can go on an Astral Quest and recuded the amount of Karma you have to blow on your spells down to less than it takes to pick up 'Trick Yo-Yoing' and 'Twentieth Century COmic Books' "
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Fortune
post Aug 20 2003, 02:25 PM
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I just 'house rule' Improved Reflexes to bring it more in line with other spells in relation to the Force at which it is cast.
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