Called "Shots" with melee weapons, any rules about this? Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Standard Switch to: Linear+

[Nefacio]

As I red on the core, theres no rules for calling a hit in melee. Why is that and how do u think rules would be for it? Any using a home rule for this ?

/discuss

[ArkonC]

The rules are on p 149 of the rulebook, they are for ranged and melee...

[KurenaiYami]

The rules are on p 149 of the rulebook, they are for ranged and melee...

Tecnically, they are only for ranged, as (on the same page you mention) it states you can only do so with weapons that fire in single-shot, semi-automatic, and burst-fire modes.

I guess you could make the stretch that melee counts as "single-shot," but I wouldn't.

[Wounded Ronin]

Tecnically, they are only for ranged, as (on the same page you mention) it states you can only do so with weapons that fire in single-shot, semi-automatic, and burst-fire modes.

I guess you could make the stretch that melee counts as "single-shot," but I wouldn't.

If we look at the precedent in SR3 and SR2, though, called shot applied equally to ranged and melee combat with exactly the same TN mod.

[nathanross]

Yeah, Im with Ronin on this, Ranged and Melee work the same for called shot. I guess I also never even noticed that they were different.

[Nefacio]

I will Quote what is said on the Core "A character can only make a called shot with weapons that fire single shot, semi-automatic, and burst fire modes." So there is nothing with melee attacks. If u use the same rule as for melee attacks u will find u get no profit at using a call shot unless the weapon which u are using has a positive AP modifier, cause u substracte the same dices (targets armor) from ur attack as the defender when resisting the damage. So if u are using a sword with an AP -1 attacking a char with an armor rating of 6, and u make a call shot u apply -6 dice to ur attack pool and the defender dont roll his 6 armor dices. Resuming u will get one extra net dice if u attack normally. With an AP of 0, its just as rolling less dices for both sides.

I dont get this rule :/

[KurenaiYami]

If we look at the precedent in SR3 and SR2, though, called shot applied equally to ranged and melee combat with exactly the same TN mod.

That's nice, but there may have been a balance reason for the change in this edition. I never played previous editions, so I read the rules for what they are, not how they compare to those of previous editions. Not that I think it would be particularly unbalancing, but perhaps the designers know something I don't.

[ArkonC]

Called Shots
Characters using melee weapons may call shots; see the Called Shots, p. 149.

[KurenaiYami]

So then, we have conflicting rules. Interesting.

I'd probably allow it, then.

[Fortune]

So then, we have conflicting rules. Interesting.

There are no conflicting rules in this instance. If you are making a melee attack and want to call a shot, you use the Called Shot rules as written. If you are shooting a firearm and want to make a Called Shot, you are limited to the firearm-type weapons listed in the rules. What is the problem?

[Nefacio]

There are no conflicting rules in this instance. If you are making a melee attack and want to call a shot, you use the Called Shot rules as written. If you are shooting a firearm and want to make a Called Shot, you are limited to the firearm-type weapons listed in the rules. What is the problem?

Problem is this. Explain me the benefit on making a call shot with a melee weapon.
Example: Joe (Katana ) has 14 DP to his attack with sword AP -1; Bob has Reaction 3 Body 4 and Armor 5. When the attack occurs Joe will Roll his 14 DP and Bob first his reaction(3) and then Body + Armor (-AP) so 4 +5 -1=8. Assuming the attack its a hit ,the attack can be resumed in a total DP of 14 plus a stated damage (D) minus the Defender pool (R+B+Armor-AP) 11 to resist damage. So it will be 14+D - 11.
If instead of attacking normally Joe decides to make a call shot, he rolls his DP minus the armor the defender rating (not modified with AP, according with the rules) then again assuming the attack its a hit net ressult will be 14DP-5Armor rating=9 plus D and Bob rolls reaction + Body 3+ 4=7. So it will be 9+D -7

Looking at this two options, when making a call shot u have one less possible hit so one less possible box of damage and you are increasing the chance to miss the attack. All that to get what benefit?

I know my explanation is a bit confusing but I think the main idea is here

[Serbitar]

Arsenal martial arts styles give boni for called shots in melee attacks.

[Tobias]

I focus on using call shots for damage in melee, instead of negate armour. -4 dice for +4DV is very nice.

[Neuntöter]

stuff

well, true. That particular option of called shots does not make too much sense. Luckily we still have other options like targeting a vulnerable area or disarming an opponent. (for those of us who do not yet have the martial arts rules)

[Serbitar]

I focus on using call shots for damage in melee, instead of negate armour. -4 dice for +4DV is very nice.

And broken.

[DTFarstar]

I want to preface this by saying I have the flu, and am doped to the gills on everything I could find so I may not make much sense, but I will try.

Nefacio, the only time that particular form of called shot is worthwhile is when you are facing someone with hardened armor of some sort that you know you will not be able to penetrate based on damage. So, say something has a hardened armor of 10, your weapon does DV 5 with AP 0. You don't think you can get the net hits you need off of your 14 DP vs. their 3 DP, so instead you call a shot to bypass armor, now it is your 4 DP vs. their 3 DP, but if you hit then they have to soak 6 or more damage with just their body, whereas before, you would have almost been guaranteed a hit, but unless you rolled exceedingly well or used edge, you would have been very unlikely to penetrate their hardened armor, thus doing nothing.

Chris

[Nightwalker450]

@Nefacio: Your complaints for called shot with melee weapon are exactly the same for any ranged weapon that has a negative AP modifier as well. Perhaps you could house rule that you don't have to completely bypass the armor, you just have to hit a "weak enough" spot. Then you only have to take a penalty of whatever your AP doesn't cover.

[Nefacio]

@Nefacio: Your complaints for called shot with melee weapon are exactly the same for any ranged weapon that has a negative AP modifier as well. Perhaps you could house rule that you don't have to completely bypass the armor, you just have to hit a "weak enough" spot. Then you only have to take a penalty of whatever your AP doesn't cover.

yap, I realise later about it. So I guess only purpose of making a call shot is when DTFarstar mention, or go for vital areas.

[Wounded Ronin]

I want to preface this by saying I have the flu, and am doped to the gills on everything I could find so I may not make much sense, but I will try.

Nefacio, the only time that particular form of called shot is worthwhile is when you are facing someone with hardened armor of some sort that you know you will not be able to penetrate based on damage. So, say something has a hardened armor of 10, your weapon does DV 5 with AP 0. You don't think you can get the net hits you need off of your 14 DP vs. their 3 DP, so instead you call a shot to bypass armor, now it is your 4 DP vs. their 3 DP, but if you hit then they have to soak 6 or more damage with just their body, whereas before, you would have almost been guaranteed a hit, but unless you rolled exceedingly well or used edge, you would have been very unlikely to penetrate their hardened armor, thus doing nothing.

Chris

Exactly. Usually a called shot in melee was statistically pointless, so there wouldn't have been some sort of balance issue to drive removing that.

[KurenaiYami]

There are no conflicting rules in this instance.

Yes, there are.

It says in one instance that you can only fire in one of those three weapon modes to make a called shot. Melee weapons don't have weapon those modes, so that sentence, if read literally, does not allow melee called shots. Two pages earlier, it does allow called shots. This is a conflict. You are inferring intent from words that aren't there.

Were it not for the text on page 147, the text on 149 would clearly state that you can't make called shots with melee.

If you are shooting a firearm and want to make a Called Shot, you are limited to the firearm-type weapons listed in the rules. What is the problem?

The problem is, it doesn't say "if you are shooting a firearm." It says "a character can only make a called shot with weapons that fire in single-shot, semi-automatic, and burst-fire modes." Melee weapons do not have those modes, so if they can only make called shots with weapons in those modes, then they can't do it with melee.

So by a literal reading of the rules, yes, there is a conflict.

You could argue, on the other hand, that the intent is fairly clear, and I would agree with you, but saying there is no conflict just means you weren't reading carefully.

[Mr. Unpronouncea...]

One benefit to called shots in melee is that weak (i.e. non-troll) characters have a better chance of inflicting physical damage by choice rather than counting on net successes.

Take someone whose weapon damage would be 3P vs. an armored jacket (6I). He'd need 4 net successes to do physical damage. But a called shot to avoid 3 impact armor means he's giving up 1 average success to need 1 net success to do physical damage.

Scratch that - it doesn't work quite like that...he'd be giving up (1/2/3/4) dice to increase his damage to (4/5/6/7)P, OR he could give up 6 dice to reduce his opponent's armor to 0 (it's all-or-nothing for armor bypassing.)

Admittedly, not a huge benefit, but it's there.

[Cain]

Nefacio, the only time that particular form of called shot is worthwhile is when you are facing someone with hardened armor of some sort that you know you will not be able to penetrate based on damage. So, say something has a hardened armor of 10, your weapon does DV 5 with AP 0. You don't think you can get the net hits you need off of your 14 DP vs. their 3 DP, so instead you call a shot to bypass armor, now it is your 4 DP vs. their 3 DP, but if you hit then they have to soak 6 or more damage with just their body, whereas before, you would have almost been guaranteed a hit, but unless you rolled exceedingly well or used edge, you would have been very unlikely to penetrate their hardened armor, thus doing nothing.

Oh, great, now a knife can one-shot a Citymaster. Just what I needed to hear. And no, I'm not explaining it this time.

[Wounded Ronin]

Oh, great, now a knife can one-shot a Citymaster. Just what I needed to hear. And no, I'm not explaining it this time.

Think positive. You can now play Goemon from Lupin Sansei.

[Mr. Unpronouncea...]

Easily solved, Cain - just rule that you can't take optional modifiers to reduce your dicepool past 0.

Since bloody few people are going to be able to eat -16 (or more) dice (all-or-nothing, remember?) without going into negatives (apply the other targeting mods first!) - no longshots should be possible.
And those that can are so far past 'superhuman' they wouldn't need to do the called shot, anyway.


edit: unless of course you're playing by Discworld rules..."It's a million-to-one shot, but it just might work!"

[Cain]

edit: unless of course you're playing by Discworld rules..."It's a million-to-one shot, but it just might work!"

You should *always* play by Discworld rules! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)