Are Sammies obsolete? Options

[suppenhuhn]

I was just wondering, because i got some players who strictly want to build mundane sams but when i compare them to an adept or a mage i just see em lacking in every aspect, especially in direct combat where they should be king of the hill in my opinion.

[raverbane]

I voted yes they are obsolete. But, it isnt because of any animosity towards sammies.

I love the idea of the archtype and it is important to the genre in general.

But, with the rules as they stand now, sammies can't compete. With all things being equal. BP for BP, sammies lag way behind the curve.

Unfortunately, mages and adepts can do anything a sammie can do and much better.

Now, this assessment doesnt take into consideration any house rules or GM imposed limits on the number of magically active folks allowed in thier games.

This is just based on what is in the books.

[BlueMax]

Karma or Nuyen?

If my question isn't clear, I can clarify.

[CircuitBoyBlue]

Riggers, too. True, it's hard to get drone DPs as far out there as a sam can, but you can have a LOT of drones on your network. When you've got half a dozen flying machine guns or rocket launchers, there's generally not a whole lot of a point in having a samurai go in. That's not even one of the more ridiculous rigger swarms out there.

[Cardul]

Sammies still serve a valuable roll.

First: Cyber-limbs add 1 Box to their physical Damage Track. Nothing an Adepot or mage can do to counter that.

Second: With implanted armours, they can get more +armour(and +body for DRT) then an Adept can, though a Mage can get more with the Armour Spell.

Third: If you have a Sammie and a Physical Adept who, through various means, had the same stats when you take in all their mods(magic or ware), then..you go someplace that has a background count(either through stuff that happened there, or through plants and such), guess who is not effected? That's right! the Sammie!

Finally: Sammies are not effected by FAB.

Now, I do think Speed Sammies are outstripped by Initiated Adepts. But it is easier for a sam to get 4 Passes then it is for an Adept. It costs a sam 32 BP and 1 Essernce to get synaptic boosters 2 at chargen, while it costs an adept 25(20 for magic 3, 5 for being an adept) and 3 power points for the same effect. True, an adept can start out with Increased Reflexes 3..but such an adept is going to find his/her usefulness limited, and, even a BGC of 1 screws him/her over.

[Ryu]

I voted no. Push the limits with your samurai, like it used to be, and you´ve got a role.

[jago668]

Now, I do think Speed Sammies are outstripped by Initiated Adepts. But it is easier for a sam to get 4 Passes then it is for an Adept. It costs a sam 32 BP and 1 Essernce to get synaptic boosters 2 at chargen, while it costs an adept 25(20 for magic 3, 5 for being an adept) and 3 power points for the same effect. True, an adept can start out with Increased Reflexes 3..but such an adept is going to find his/her usefulness limited, and, even a BGC of 1 screws him/her over.

Not disagreeing with the post, just some mathematical cleanup. It depends on how the adept hit improved reflexes 3. Going just up to magic 5 and only buying it, or going up to magic 6. At magic 6 it takes a background count of 2, not 1. I am sure you are awre of that, but other people that read it may not be. So better to be all the way clear than have them making mistakes later.

[cryptoknight]

An Adept using Bioware can far exceed what a Sam can do... Why spend your Adept Magic points to buy increased initiative when you can get 3 IPs for 1 Power Point by putting Synaptic Booster 2? Cybereyes can fit in if you just make it Synaptic Booster 1 to start, or you can take contact lenses with smartlink, thermo, etc...

Yes a Background Count can hose the adept... But once they start initiating... they can spend some essence/magic points on some critical cyberwear... and use the adept powers for things that sammies can't do (Throwing Adept for instance). In truth, the Adept can be a sammie and an Adept at some point in his or her life.. not so the Sammie who can never, ever, become magically active (except via latent awakening and then he's probably screwed because he took too much cyber to begin with).

The only way I can see to try to fix this... is to require all magically active characters to have sensitive system... or something else that ups the essence costs of augmenting... Otherwise only a fool of an adept won't augment.

[Kyoto Kid]

...I voted no. Of course I consider Weapon Specialists ans to a lesser degree Bounty Hunters to be subsets of the Sammy. A Sammy has to deal with one thing combat possible and to that extent this is where the BPs go to after Attributes Combat/Physical skills & weapons. He needn't sorry much aout matrix, technical skills and isn't a BP/Karma sink when it comes to magic.

The Sammy is still the soldier/commando of Shadowrun and there will always be a need for someone who can just dish out the maximum amount of hurt in short order and take the punishment when it comes his way.

Magic may have wider reaching effects & Adepts may eventually be able to go beyond the mundane mundane limits. However, to do so takes a whole lot of Karma. If a good Sammy, a fast Sammy can get a jump on the mage or adept first, he is usually the one who walks away while that huge investment in Karma lays bleeding to death on the pavement..

I'm not implying which is better (and definitely not wanting to start that argument up again), just saying that the Sammy still has his place in the shadows.

[Teulisch]

an adept has LONG TERM potential. a sam can do it right now.

the game, as written now, gives an adept a higher a higher DP in a few things, where a sam gets a nice dicepool in many things, right at the start. and over the longer term, adepts take a LOT of karma for their powers, while sams take a lot of money. An adept has diminishing returns for more power, while a sam can get 4 essence of deltaware cyber and 3.98 essence of deltaware bio (or vice versa). thats a base of close to 16 points of ware, at ten times the cost, just as soon as you get the money and make the availibility rolls. and with comparable karma, the sam can max out his attributes and skills long before the adept does.

long-run, an adept can get about 2 more dice on skill than the sam per skill, a variety of funky powers, and astral sight. and the adept with implants will do it better than the adept without implants. so yeah theres an edge, but its not that great of an edge.

You will always have the street sams, because anyone can be a street sam. an adept is born, a sam is manufactured.

[Stahlseele]

heck no, especially the troll-samurais are not obsolete, as they are still the be all there is to doing and taking damage like nothing else . . see the brick and bow-troll threads for example . . and with the point costs trolls have allways been kinda hard to combine with adepts . . and aside from rooting, what can an adept do to get rid of recoil if not pimping out his weapon? the samurai can do that and then still get 2 forearm gyroscopes and weapon mounts and the such . .

[Riley37]

"Cyber-limbs add 1 Box to their physical Damage Track. Nothing an Adepot or mage can do to counter that."

There's an obvious counter-measure to that: do more than 1 box of damage to the sammie. Oh, you mean a way to *match* that? Adept takes Increased Ability: BOD, and each 2 points add a box to damage track.

Mages win on the Initiative front. Chargen mage starts each day by summoning a Spirit of Man with the Increased Reflexes spell, mage requests "continual use of a power" as the first service of the day, mage has 4 IP all day long. Then, after a few missions, mage has nuyen and contacts to buy an F4 Health sustaining focus, and karma to bind it, and can switch to having their daily Spirit of Man sustain some other spell on them, such as Combat Reflexes.

As for riggers vs. sammies, though, the sammie can also buy drones, and just give them instructions rather than remote-controlling them or rigging them. Doberman/Lynx is R4, more or less equivalent to INT 4, and thus fairly bright within its limited scope of operations. Sammie can take a Knowlege Skill to justify giving the drones some well-thought-out standing orders (eg what to do if it loses contact with owner, fire at anything the owner fires at, etc.)

[kzt]

The most critical advantage of an adept is that they can get countermagic. It's hard for a sammie to get a will of 16. 4 Mystic adepts shooting and running drones with a par of mages are nearly immune to magic at a reasonable level, as the team has an average of 13 dice of countermagic assuming the adepts only have 4 dice.

[Stahlseele]

"Cyber-limbs add 1 Box to their physical Damage Track. Nothing an Adepot or mage can do to counter that."

There's an obvious counter-measure to that: do more than 1 box of damage to the sammie. Oh, you mean a way to *match* that? Adept takes Increased Ability: BOD, and each 2 points add a box to damage track.

isn't that limited to +3 body in the case of humans?

[cryptoknight]

isn't that limited to +3 body in the case of humans?

Augmented maximums apply to sams too

[Kanada Ten]

Augmented maximums apply to sams too

But there isn't a direct limit to Damage Track, is there? Cyber and Adept at max augmented Body, Cyber has more boxes due to cyberlimbs. Also, don't adepts add cyber, bio and genetic essence costs directly together like mages? Where as a mundane is adding them 1 + 1/2 + 1/2? There's a genetic heritage type-o nanohive razor out there somewhere, with a huge addiction to beetles and no manners, who can take on an adept I bet. Underwater. With one extra limb tied behind his back.

[Kyoto Kid]

The most critical advantage of an adept is that they can get countermagic. It's hard for a sammie to get a will of 16. 4 Mystic adepts shooting and running drones with a par of mages are nearly immune to magic at a reasonable level, as the team has an average of 13 dice of countermagic assuming the adepts only have 4 dice.

...adepts get spell resistance, not counterspelling and it costs .5 PP per point. Mystic adepts also need to divide their Magical assets between Adept powers and spell force. With all those BPs going towards magic and rigging, that doesn't leave a lot for good ol' raw combat skill. A half dozen awakened individuals on a single team (unless it is an NPC corporate strike force) is also a little hard to accept in light of the statement below...

an adept is born, a sam is manufactured.

[It trolls!]

Augmented maximums apply to sams too

The additional box on your damage track isn't linked to BOD in any way. You just get it for every cyberlimb you take.

[cryptoknight]

But there isn't a direct limit to Damage Track, is there? Cyber and Adept at max augmented Body, Cyber has more boxes due to cyberlimbs. Also, don't adepts add cyber, bio and genetic essence costs directly together like mages? Where as a mundane is adding them 1 + 1/2 + 1/2? There's a genetic heritage type-o nanohive razor out there somewhere, with a huge addiction to beetles and no manners, who can take on an adept I bet. Underwater. With one extra limb tied behind his back.

Essence Cost: All cyberware and bioware
implants have an Essence cost, representing
the reduction of the character’s Essence rating
that occurs when the ’ware is implanted.
Essence costs for cyberware and bioware are
tracked separately; only the highest amount is
applied to the character’s essence in full, the
lesser amount is applied at half it’s value to
the character’s Essence (see Essence, p. 61).

Nowhere does it say that Adepts or Mages track essence in the way you speak of. I just scanned through Agumentation and Street Magic looking for this rule as well and I can't find it.

[cryptoknight]

The additional box on your damage track isn't linked to BOD in any way. You just get it for every cyberlimb you take.

Ok... but after sucking up 4 of your essence to get 4 boxes more... you're still stuck with 3 for your body... unless you take a cybertorso... in which case you have .5 essence left for other goodies. Not even enough to get anything past synaptic booster 1 really... and for that you need alphaware.

[Daier Mune]

I think Cybersams are still viable, however, I no longer think they're necisary. there are many options available for fire support/physical combat archetypes for the team, all of them worthwhile in thier own right.

[Jhaiisiin]

I voted "No, and I'll shoot you in the face for even asking."

Honestly, Street Sams are more versatile more quickly than an adept can be, generally speaking. As someone else already mentioned, for the same amount of Karma, you end up with higher attributes and skills on a Sammie than you do on an Adept, because the Adept was having to worry about initiation, magic increases, foci and such. The Sammie was also getting further increases through ware much faster than the adept, because it only cost nuyen, and finally the Sammie's generally can take more punishment than an adept can, simply because of the massive 'ware they've included in their package.

IMO, sammies will *always* have a place in a Shadowrun team. From a fluff perspective, not everyone can be an adept or mage no matter what. ANYONE can be a street sam, you just need the cash.

[Jhaiisiin]

Ok... but after sucking up 4 of your essence to get 4 boxes more... you're still stuck with 3 for your body... unless you take a cybertorso... in which case you have .5 essence left for other goodies. Not even enough to get anything past synaptic booster 1 really... and for that you need alphaware.

You're right. .5 essence and a metric ton of capacity that you can use to install other ware at no additional essence cost.

[It trolls!]

Ok... but after sucking up 4 of your essence to get 4 boxes more... you're still stuck with 3 for your body... unless you take a cybertorso... in which case you have .5 essence left for other goodies. Not even enough to get anything past synaptic booster 1 really... and for that you need alphaware.

Before Augmentation I'd have agreed with you, but now at chargen you could grab 2 cyberarms, customize them for BOD 6, AGI 6 and add another +3 to each via enhancements. That's not counting the remaining capacity in those arms to add stuff.
Ok, he now has Body 9 only in his arms but since the average of all limbs would be applied to resist an attack (except for a called shot) the sammie, say he has natural BOD 4 will average to 4/6 * 4 + 2/6 * 9 = 3 + 3 = 6 (correct me, if I'm wrong, I don't have the exact ruling in my head).

[Lionhearted]

One of the things i love about shadowrun is its lack of predeterminated classes, and in my oppinion.. No Archetype is essential, or obsolete. Shadowrun is more about, what you want to play, rather than what you need to play.
Depending on what games you like to run different types will be advantaged, or disadvantaged but still viable nevertheless. Not all groups will need a Street sam, especially not those focused on more peaceful solutions, but this is what's so great about it. You don't have to limit yourself.
In D&D a Fighter receives massive hitpoints, and good fighting abilities, but due to their great lack of skillpoints they get stuck as a one trick pony. In shadowrun on the otherhand, there is no problem what so ever to have a Chromed fighting machine that also has some social graces or whatever you like, hell even the Chromed Adept is a possibility.
Given this, sure if you are a number crunch'er maybe the adept/magician can outdo the SS, but since many keep the 5 million (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) Street Sam so close to their heart, afterall the SS is one of the very core archetypes that defines the cyberpunk. You can take the Cyber-out of a Sammy, but you cannot take the Sammy out of the people