Characters these days..., what happened to the intent Options

[Slymoon]

After being here for abit, (been Lurking for years) and reading about character builds and discussions, there seems to be an uncomfortable reality.

Characters seem to be built for the 'best build' syndrome. Everything is optimized 'why use X when you could use Y and be better for less'. It becomes an exercise in mathmatics, a formula, instead of building a character with a background that may actually not be built perfectly.

This may be just a forum based issue or may be brought on by conventions. The characters start epitomizing MMORPG character builds where the build of the month is based on what patches have done, or what spell, skill, combo, class is top of the damage charts.

Is this how characters are built in your games? Are all adepts based on 1 loss of magic for some bioware because mathmatically it costs less BPs and you get more?

What happened to the, 'I want to build Joe who is pure of mind and body and be damned what is mathmatically better'.

[Siege]

Number-crunching has always been an issue, since the days of D&D and the randomly generated stat.

More options, more chances to munch.

One of the fun things of CP2020 was the lifepath chart and the random "damn, that just sucks" when applied to the existing character.

-Siege

[It trolls!]

I call it "D&D syndrome" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) But I wouldn't count on this being a general trend. Players are always eager to test the rules of a system to all extents and for some, gaming involves getting the maximum out of whatever resources you have.
I tend to view most of the discussion about pure number builds here more as a kind of exercise rather than actual characters.

[Larme]

What else are people going to do on a message board? If you make a nice, flavorful character with a novella of background, nobody has a basis to critique it. All they can tell you is "do like" or "don't like." But if you're trying to make a really effective character, there are all kinds of ways for people to critique you. Numbers are concerete, and you can give concrete advice about them. If you're not concerned about the numbers, why would you bother to spend the time it takes to write up a character into a Dumpshock post?

[Kyrn]

What happened to the, 'I want to build Joe who is pure of mind and body and be damned what is mathmatically better'.

Joe died from not having cyberware. His brother Jim ran right out and picked up a synthacardium and muscle toner.

Jim's doing just fine now. Joe's still dead.

[Method]

I tend to agree with It Trolls! (funny how your handle makes a simple statement seem really enthusiastic) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I think a lot of these uber-builds are interesting, but only as intellectual exercises that help to understand the subtleties (some would say minutia) of the rules.

Personally, I would find it quite boring to actually GM a game with these kinds of characters, or players who want to sit and cruntch numbers all night to figure out how they can get an extra die for one certain test or whatever.

But then, I tend to prefer generalists with character flaws anyway... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[Jaid]

as was said, how am i supposed to tell you how to roleplay your character? what advice can i give you on how you want to roleplay your character? chances are, i can't even tell you what archetype you want to play, or if you want to make up an archetype of your own.

on the other hand, it's quite possible for me to look at your character with no special knowledge and tell you that you don't need gymnastics, dodge, *and* unarmed combat. or that tailored pheromones will make you a better face. those kinds of things i can see instantly, and advise you on.

[Glyph]

Characters posted on these forums tend to be either pure numbers-crunching exercises, or builds from newer players who need practical advice on what works and what doesn't. And the advice isn't always on how to get the most dice firing an assault rifle. It includes things such as whether a character is missing vital skills, or is too specialized, or is spread too thin, and so on.

If you want to see characters that people actually play, then check out the Welcome to the Shadows forum, where characters are often posted in spoilers.

[Method]

Good call, Glyph.

[sungun]

i imagine/hope that it's more a forum phenomenon than the way most people game.

strategy is cool, but it's not chess. make a character and the gm should tweak the game to find that 'threat level sweet spot' for your team. the real interesting part of strategy isn't the number juggling anyways.. it's thinking of ways to describe yourself into a situation where the abilities and numbers you have do the trick.

[kawaii]

I always thought the best way to break a system is to testing things on the very fringe - exploit the edges and you might find a scenario that doesn't work like you expect it to. I would think that the min-maxed characters do that and if 90% of the time, the characters are still playable (even with no Charisma and practically dead), welll, the system works pretty well.

If the characters don't, then maybe there's a system problem and the next edition will try (hopefully!) to fix it. :)

[Synner667]

Min/max-ing and munchkinism has always been around, because there's always been people who want to cheat and manipulate the system [Rules Lawyers are a tenacious breed].

Saying that people are doing it to "test" the system is a an excuse to generate crap Characters [I don't know a single system that can't be broken, some just take more work than others - One of my friends "tests" an RPG by generating himself with the mechanics and trying to do things].

Looking through these forums shows many Players generating Characters built by numbers, with no characterisation at all..
..Because many people can't play Characters, they just don't know how, it's not enforced by their GM, they see it as "unnecessary".


But it only happens with a GM who lets it happen, who don't think about the games they're running, who allow unfettered access to all source material

Longterm GMs are more likely to not allows number-built Characters, because they actually want to play longterm games and such Characters can't be played longterm because they're just not sustainable.


SR has degenerated into a game where guns and damage causing seem to be the main drivers..
..And that is reflected in the Players and Characters it attracts [and has happened over the years to many RPGs [ D&D, Werewolf, etc].


Games where combat is not the focus tend to attract Players and Characters where min/max-ing and munchkinsism is not so prevalent, because they choose not to play Characters like that.


This all sounds very "old skool", boring and likely to get me flamed..
..But I roleplay to have fun, not to juggle figures and have a warm, happy, fuzzy feeling because I managed to spend less character points to do something and I can cause just a little bit more damage than someone else.

[Cthulhudreams]

People who call it munchism deserve a punch in the face. Then another punch in the face. Having completed that, the reason we don't discuss sub optimal choices for roleplaying reasons is that there is really no common ground to discuss.

What are you going to say?

Poster: took muscle replacement because it's an intergral part of my characters background

Response: ..... ... ......

I mean, we can say that muscle toner is about a billion times better, but you're not asking a question, or discussing a point, you're making a statement. This isn't a 'statement forum' its a discussion forum. So we need questions to discuss, and that sort of thing is

"'Is muscle toner or muscle replacement better for a sniper?"

But the only answers that can be provided rely on maths, logic and numbers (ie a discussion of optimal and sub optimal choices) because a response like "Whatever is better for your characters background" doesn't address the question, reach conculsions or even make a point.

[Fuchs]

I think those discussions give a "baseline" to check your own characters and NPCs against. No one has to take all the advice (My latest character is a bio/cyber-free adept), but it helps to see what can be done, and what skills and stuff people consider essential.

[BlueMax]

The best characters, and by that I mean characters that my players tell stories about for years and years to come, are all "theme" characters.

Be it the Mystery Men knock offs
The Doc Wagon crew
or the Humanis Policlub chapter,

Parties with a theme make for the best character. As for the best stats, meh,

[mfb]

i tend to min-max the hell out of my characters, due in part to the fact that i like "winning" SR, and due in part to the fact that i like to roleplay characters who are very good at what they do. i could build less-optimized characters, but the types of person that sub-optimal stats tend to represent aren't the types of characters i really enjoy playing.

[Cain]

It's also worth mentioning that min/maxing your character isn't a sign of a bad roleplayer, and a suboptimal build is not a sign of a good one.

[Fuchs]

In a typical pen and paper campaign, "very good" is relative to the rest of the characters and NPCs, and ultimately up to the GM.

[mfb]

it's variable, based on the group's desires and expectations, yes.

[Shrike30]

The only time character stats end up posted online for commentary is when people want them tweaked.

I can't count how many characters I've made, played, and enjoyed who were suboptimal in some way, and who've never been posted to dumpshock. I can count on no hands the number I've posted here for tweaking.

More than happy to contribute to someone else's tweaking exercise, though. Good for the brain (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[ArkonC]

It's also worth mentioning that min/maxing your character isn't a sign of a bad roleplayer, and a suboptimal build is not a sign of a good one.

Exactly...
If I want to play a guy who can hit a penny a mile away, asking how to optimize my build is just common sense...

[Kingmaker]

The OP strikes as more than a little elitist and insulting. Why can't a character be optimized and have a back story? People optimize their skills in real life just like in some Shadowrun character builds. It's called specialization, and doesn't rob you of personality or backstory.

[Fuchs]

As a sidenote, I remember seeing some "backstory optimisation" threads or posts as well, when people asked for help with those parts of a character.

[mike_the_fish]

What else are people going to do on a message board?

Indeed, this is a good point. I have a feeling that most of the one-dimentional min-maxed characters exist only on these boards rather than in actual games. Not all, but most.

[nathanross]

Characters seem to be built for the 'best build' syndrome. Everything is optimized 'why use X when you could use Y and be better for less'. It becomes an exercise in mathmatics, a formula, instead of building a character with a background that may actually not be built perfectly.

This may be just a forum based issue or may be brought on by conventions. The characters start epitomizing MMORPG character builds where the build of the month is based on what patches have done, or what spell, skill, combo, class is top of the damage charts.

Is this how characters are built in your games? Are all adepts based on 1 loss of magic for some bioware because mathmatically it costs less BPs and you get more?

What happened to the, 'I want to build Joe who is pure of mind and body and be damned what is mathmatically better'.

First off, you must remember that the unspoken DS rule is "Post Your Character to be Pimped", plain and simple. Anyone can make a character, but here you have a very high concentration of people who are very knowledgeable about the subject and are more than happy to help.

I consider myself somewhere in the middle. I do not buy an assault rifle that is not an Alpha. My main armor is also always an Armor Jacket. I have enough years under my belt that I would seriously have to lobotomize myself to get away from this frame of mind. My only refuge is Adepts, who I have yet to create with cyber/bioware. Course, once I got enough money, Rating 4 Skillwires is first on the list. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

(BTW, Has anyone else noticed that the Ares Alpha is essentially an LMG?)