Trumping RFID tags, When doing a non-subtle part of a mission... Options

[Wasabi]

Is it valid for each member of a team to have a rating 2 jammer whenever they don Chameleon suits and do a 'hard entry' portion of a run?
Since RFID's would then get ignored it makes it tough for a GM to track gear without using a spirit with the search power, ritual sorcery, or drone/vehicle type sensors.
The team then puts all the loot into a container covered in anti-wifi paint.

Thats pretty hard to counter as a GM. Sure, when they sell it it could cost them contacts they sell to or notoriety if they gain a rep for burning the buyers (who wants Ares knocking down your door when you just bought some pistols from the runners.)

Thoughts?

[Stahlseele]

set up a small EMP-Generator/grenade in the container with the loot that does not consist of something high-techy that you need intact and fry all of those pesky tags? O.o
with others you'd probably have to more or less dismantle it and get the tags out to clean things . .

[Riley37]

Jammers work by broadcasting a signal so strong that it drowns out other signals. The acoustic equivalent would be blaring a siren to drown out the guard's call for help: the guard's buddies won't hear his voice but they'll sure hear the siren. Anyone running a jammer at Signal 2 will stand out like a flare or beacon to anyone scanning for signals.

A standard military countermeasure to jamming, is to fire missiles which home in on whatever's broadcasting the strongest signal, measured by a sensor in the nose of the missile.

The anti-wifi container is a neat trick, and it should generally work. An occasional target might so thorough that they hide a microdrone with their valuables, and program the microdrone so that it tries to sneak out of any container or barrier until it can regain radio contact with its owner... but that's rare; who's gonna bother with that?

[Edge2054]

Thats pretty hard to counter as a GM.

Thoughts?

Then don't try to counter it. If the team is going through that much trouble to loot let them.

As was said though running a jammer constantly isn't the brightest thing. Keep in mind that jammers also affect the team and the constant static will be pretty obvious. Even if a rating 2 jammer won't completely jam much other then an RFID chip it will create static in the area.

Something else to consider is even though there's no encumberance rules in the game that doesn't mean you should let the players get away with carrying around more gear then is logical especially if they're not all wearing empty backpacks to store that loot. Imagine trying to run from security or the cops with a backpack full of heavy pistols and armor. Look at the characters strength scores and don't let the strength one decker run around like The Flash when he's shouldering a ton of gear, or worse yet, trying to hold it all in his hands if he didn't bring along an empty backpack.

The final thing to consider is what tracks RFID tags to begin with. A big fragging computer is what (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) . Imagine how a corporation's security network would respond when things that are supposed to be on it's grid suddenly vanish. Another reason not to run jammers constantly.

[b1ffov3rfl0w]

Then don't try to counter it. If the team is going through that much trouble to loot let them.

As was said though running a jammer constantly isn't the brightest thing. Keep in mind that jammers also affect the team and the constant static will be pretty obvious. Even if a rating 2 jammer won't completely jam much other then an RFID chip it will create static in the area.

Yeah, but if subtlety/stealth is out the window at that point, you could do worse than to fire up a big ol' jammer, as long as all your communications have high Signal backed up by high ECCM. The other guys might have the same, but even then it doesn't hurt you.

[Edge2054]

Yeah, but if subtlety/stealth is out the window at that point, you could do worse than to fire up a big ol' jammer, as long as all your communications have high Signal backed up by high ECCM. The other guys might have the same, but even then it doesn't hurt you.

That's true but it sounded like from what the OP was saying his team is running rating 2 jammers as a matter of course and as a way to trump RFID tags and loot as much gear as they want. As the GM it sounds like he's frustrated with this behavior.

Something else OP... does your team use Smartlinks? Most cyberware has a signal rating of zero and unless they incorporate ECCM into their smartink systems and smartgun systems they'd be jamming themselves. That's ECCM on the smartgun device and on the gun itself since smartlinks are actually two devices that have to communicate back and forth.

The other option for the team at this point would be to boost the signal rating on their smartguns but that makes them more vulnerable to hacking.

*edit* Or run smartlinks wired somehow, either a direct cable connection or through a skin link.

[kzt]

The RF monitoring system would be able to easily track the jammers, and tell security off-site they are under attack. And probably RF fingerprint them. So they would know it's the same guys when they show up somewhere else.

As someone said, it's like running around with a strobe light so the guards flashlights don't work, or a giant siren so you don't hear them call for help. Lots of people what are not right next to the jammer will notice the jammer.

This tends to allow security guys and bots to position themselves in the path of their advance and retreat. And with a jammer running it's not like they are going to have anyone tell them about the 4 citymasters full of combat bots and guys in mil-spec armor that just pulled up outside.

[jago668]

set up a small EMP-Generator/grenade in the container with the loot that does not consist of something high-techy that you need intact and fry all of those pesky tags? O.o
with others you'd probably have to more or less dismantle it and get the tags out to clean things . .

What do you use for the device rating on rfid tags? The response or signal? Just curious which you would roll against for the emp grenade.

[WearzManySkins]

A rating 2 jammer has 10 meter radius of effect, total of 20 meter coverage area. Walls may restrict the area of the jammers coverage.

So anything outside jammer coverage area by RAW can not pick up the jammer signal, or detect it.

So unless the military sensors/missile are inside the covered area, no HARM missiles can lock on.

Now a local Corp sensor net if the jammers covered area enters the network, would detect the jamming, response depending on the Corp.

As for the anti WiFi paint, easier to put into a Faraday Cage lined container.

Now how a EMR(Electro Magnetic Radiation) radiating device that can jam some of the strongest signals but have such a minor EMR footprint...is beyond the pale of scale. Radiated EMR signals do not behave that way. I guess this is a case for another "Neatoe" things that the developers lacked the information on.

Most of what said here about jammers is very correct but the RAW makes such a moot point. In RL jammers are easily detected at twice or more the signal coverage area or footprint.

As for counter...well all the Team's cybergear/smartgun links etc with a signal strength of 2 or less will be jammed also.

WMS

[kzt]

In SR3 we carried a folded up container that had a honking ward on it and was a Faraday cage. Basically a folding soft-sided aluminized cooler with an expensive zipper on it that we could stuff in a backpack until we needed it.

[Riley37]

WMS: "A rating 2 jammer has 10 meter radius of effect, total of 20 meter coverage area. Walls may restrict the area of the jammers coverage. So anything outside jammer coverage area by RAW can not pick up the jammer signal, or detect it."

Is it also RAW that since a flash-bang grenade only damages targets within 10 meters, it therefore produces no light or sound that goes any further than 10 meters, and no one outside the area of effect has any chance to hear or see any hint that a flash-bang grenade just detonated?

You're playing the RAW card badly. RAW states the area in which a jammer's signal drowns out other signals. RAW does not discuss detection of jammer signals. In the absence of RAW, and having passed an intro college physics class, I'm going with signal attenuation by inverse square law.

[kzt]

IIRC, WMS is an ex-navy radar guy.

[WearzManySkins]

WMS: "A rating 2 jammer has 10 meter radius of effect, total of 20 meter coverage area. Walls may restrict the area of the jammers coverage. So anything outside jammer coverage area by RAW can not pick up the jammer signal, or detect it."

Is it also RAW that since a flash-bang grenade only damages targets within 10 meters, it therefore produces no light or sound that goes any further than 10 meters, and no one outside the area of effect has any chance to hear or see any hint that a flash-bang grenade just detonated?

You're playing the RAW card badly. RAW states the area in which a jammer's signal drowns out other signals. RAW does not discuss detection of jammer signals. In the absence of RAW, and having passed an intro college physics class, I'm going with signal attenuation by inverse square law.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) No I am merely pointing out that Signals in RAW do not act like you physics class taught you, and my EW training taught me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The only RAW sensor that can detect and pinpoint the signal location is the Radio Signal Scanner.

In your example with the flash bang, yes the Mark 1 eyeball can detect the flash at a greater distance than than the area of effect, provided nothing blocks the photons from traveling to your Mark 1 eyeball.

Agreed your example for the flash bang is correct, the photons continue on. But in the jammers case the photons just vanish after a set distance. But if you are going to use the inverse square law, you should use it on the jamming signal also, that would mean it covers a much larger area than RAW states.

WMS

[WearzManySkins]

IIRC, WMS is an ex-navy radar guy.

Very Correct sir (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Shrike30]

A big 20m diameter rolling blackout sphere travelling through a company's wireless security network is gonna draw attention. Not quite as easy to target as a signal from a jammer might be IRL to hit with an antiradiation missile, but it'll be pretty obvious when the blackout rolls the length of a tunnel that there's something down there jamming your signals. And then you get a bunch of guys with gunsights in front of their Mk 1 Mod 0 eyeballs waiting outside the far end of the tunnel (IMG:style_emoticons/default/vegm.gif)

[Cadmus]

Could always grab a RFID Burner, well every member should pick one up at some time (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) granted only works if you have time to use it too. Though as long as stealths out of the way the jammers are fine realy, get to the vehicle if you have that anti wirless paint bag/box/what ever. and get the hell out (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[WearzManySkins]

From Arsenal page 105

Sensors and Jamming
Vehicle sensors are subject to ECM/jamming (see ECM,
p. 135, and also pp. 225 and 320, SR4). If a vehicle’s Sensor rating
does not exceed the rating of the ECM/jammer, the sensors
are effectively useless. This can be an important factor in sensor
targeting (p. 162, SR4). ECCM soft ware (p. 227, SR4) may be
used to enhance sensors that are contesting against jamming.
Apply the ECCM rating to the Sensor rating when determining
if the ECM/jammer rating equals or exceeds it.
As an optional rule, the gamemaster can rule that jamming
impedes sensors, and apply the ECM/jammer rating as a negative
dice pool modifier to all Sensor Tests and Sensor Targeting Tests.

Question is this, if vehicle sensors can be affected as above, what about other sensors ie Corp Sensor net in a building?

WMS

[Wasabi]

Guys, thanks so much for all the feedback and perspective. The usefulness of a Radio Signal Scanner to detect a jammer is a beautiful addition and the use of monitored systems going offline due to jamming and setting off an alarm is a nice twist to corpsec.

Lastly, to the poster saying smartlinks could be jammed, the team knows to use skinlinked weaponry so they dont have that happen.

[b1ffov3rfl0w]

A couple of other things:

Jamming can be done on all frequencies, or on selected frequencies -- I suppose this means that you could jam all frequencies except a handful that you're using, and that it might take the opposition a few seconds or minutes to find usable frequencies. And of course you could have some sort of pre-arranged plan to change the open frequency synchronously, so everyone on your team (who knows the plan) will automatically use unjammed frequencies. Since this is pretty much WWII stuff, though, I imagine that sort of thing should be part of the basic abstract of "level of jamming" and ECCM software, but I don't really know.

Also, an RFID tag eraser only works on regular RFID tags; security tags (which should be in all weapons and expensive equipment) are unaffected by them and you need to physically get to the tags. I don't think you can overwrite them either, as they seem to be non-editable once written. Somehow. Dunno.

If I'm not mistaken, jamming is basically broadcasting noise. What exactly is a Radio Signal Scanner? Is it basically what we would now call a radio scanner? If it works anything like that, and like real-life stuff, I would think they would pick up a jammer (if listening to the right frequencies) well outside its jam area, picking up "someone's broadcasting a bunch of noise nearby" or at least "I'm getting some interference". As would any other radio receivers, I guess. For overwhelming noise within a 10m radius that can't be detected 11m away you'd need a spell (or perhaps a distributed array of very low-powered jammers). I wonder if there's a spell like that. Ah: http://www.panix.com/~zackw/shadowrun/spells.html

[WearzManySkins]

In SR4 jamming uses all frequencies, AKA Barrage jamming. IRL yes you can jam certain frequencies and leave others unjammed.

As for what is a Radio Signal Scanner?*shrugs*

Yes I agree but in SR4 once the radius is reached ie 10 meters, the photons just disappear. No spell needed or the like. This is unlike RL radio frequency devices and or theories.

WMS

[b1ffov3rfl0w]

In SR4 jamming uses all frequencies, AKA Barrage jamming. IRL yes you can jam certain frequencies and leave others unjammed.

It doesn't mention it under the description of the jammer, but I found this in the Wireless World section:

Note also that jamming can be either selective (targeting specific frequencies) or a barrage attack that seeks to interfere with all frequencies.

I think it's just a level of detail that most players wouldn't really bother with.

As for what is a Radio Signal Scanner?*shrugs*

Yes I agree but in SR4 once the radius is reached ie 10 meters, the photons just disappear. No spell needed or the like. This is unlike RL radio frequency devices and or theories.

WMS

You've said that, but I don't quite get why. I mean, I can accept magic doing things that don't make sense, because it's magic. Likewise, to a lesser extent, for super-duper high tech stuff, because it's sufficiently advanced technology and all that. But photons are pretty much photons. But for things that do exist, like photons, it just seems odd. Jamming (or causing detectable interference anyway) is actually easier than not jamming, and the most protection against jamming seems to be that you can be fined and/or imprisoned for it, like that old guy in SoCal who got seven years (and he's 72 now).

But I could accept that with noise cancellation and information density technobabble the way it is in 2070, that interference below the threshold of actually reducing the Signal would be unnoticed because, er, everything is designed that way because of ... because ... otherwise all the RF flying around would drive you nuts, yeah, that's the ticket! And a radio signal scanner is designed to be able to detect that interference because it's not simply a communications device.

[kzt]

He's arguing "The rules are the rules".

[b1ffov3rfl0w]

Yah sure, the rules are the rules, but the rules don't actually say anything about detecting jammers, just about being jammed by them. Specifically, they while they don't say "the use of a jammer is detectable for (Rating x 10) meters beyond the effective range" or something like that, they also don't say "outside the effective range, jammers are totally silent and undetectable, in contravention of the laws of physics as we understand them".

To drag this out even more with pedantic and annoying analogies, the rules don't say what happens to rounds that miss. Shooting a machine pistol at a target 50m away is extreme range, but I wouldn't infer from that that the bullets stop in mid-air 50.5 m away from the barrel, hang there for an instant, then fall to the ground like cherry blossoms into Lake Biwa, just that at around that range they're too inaccurate or slow to be effective.

Or, you know, the rules don't say how often (meta)humans have to take a dump, or what the threshold on the Body + Willpower test to hold it in is, whether Dwarfs (sic) get a +2 on that, or what the dice pool modifier to all actions is when you really have to go bad. I wouldn't take this to mean "in the future nobody poops", just that it's a level of detail that's not really warranted.

(I mean, if the runners have someone on the inside slip a powerful laxative into the guard room's soykaf machine, it could freak out an unprepared Missions GM).

[WearzManySkins]

I am not saying I totally agree with the RAW on this. Just pointing out what RAW says.

Give a day or two, I can add something more constructive to the discussion ie some House Rules on Electronic Warfare.

WMS

[Earlydawn]

Would definitely like to see tome Advanced EW rules. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)