 Bettering Weapons, Dikoting and other fun stuff |
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 Dec 4 2003, 06:11 AM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 124 Joined: 21-November 03 Member No.: 5,837  |
Okay...
I can Dikote blades, no prob. I can add mono filimants to stuff(though I don't know those rules...) The cannon companion only seems to mention that some items can't be dikoted...like what? Do they mean staffs or are they talking about foci or what? Cause really I would think any of them could be dikoted...does it have the same affect? I just kinda wanna know exactly what I can do to each type of weapon, and what material the weapons need to be in order to do each technique. Thanks. |
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Dec 4 2003, 06:14 AM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 608 Joined: 9-July 02 From: California Member No.: 2,955 |
Nothing that can't stand the searing temperature of thousand degree diamond plasma. In my game, anything else goes. Someone dikoted their cyberdeck case, though I'm still into the dark as to why. This same character made an orichalum deck (I think he was tainted by one of the board's crazies). I don't care about foci, just make sure they're not wooden staffs or something. Hehe, burnination.
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Dec 4 2003, 06:17 AM
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#3
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
No clue about the orichalcum, but dikoting a deck case makes a lot of sense, given the typical value of what's inside the case.
~J |
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Dec 4 2003, 03:27 PM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 268 Joined: 30-March 03 From: Denver, CO Member No.: 4,355 |
<munchkin>
Dikote your AV 14S Sniper ammo for +1 power! Your 18 armor panzer goes from resisting 5S to 6S </munchkin> :) |
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Dec 4 2003, 04:22 PM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 124 Joined: 21-November 03 Member No.: 5,837 |
I asked a Physics prof and Chem Prof at my University here, neither had an exact temp at which Diamond melted and went off to look it up. While I wait...Bronze has a higher melting point than paper's and very closely clothe's burning point(452) I believe Bronze melts at 470+ Logically I shouldn't be able to bronze shoes...
How many of your parents(or you that are parents) have had your baby shoes bronzed? I'll bet more than you guys think. My parents still have mine. I know rubber melts at a lower temp than bronze, and yet you can bronze shoes... See where I am going with that? What can I use as valid items to Dikote in your games? Sure it is easy to say "iron" "steel" etc...what about orihalcum...wooden weapons(pratice blades)...and if I did Dikote a club, would it now do physical from the diamond shell? Just floating a few Qs here. |
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Dec 4 2003, 04:30 PM
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#6
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,428 Joined: 9-June 02 Member No.: 2,860 |
What Diesel said. The dikoting process heats up fart gas (methane) and some excess hydrogen to about 1200C (2200F) with microwaves. The environment is designed to cause methane to decompose into carbon and hydrogen. The released hydrogen bonds with the excess hydrogen, leaving carbon to fly around in the gas until it slams into something solid, like the chamber walls or the target. In those conditions, the carbon will form diamond rather than soot. Depending on the exact technique, the decomposition may be concentrated near the target, minimizing diamond build-up on the target. These are actually pictures of "plasma nitriding", but they're examples of how the dikoting plasmas can be concentrated (and they're cool pics): Gear and Drive Shaft Other Parts being Coated They're not really the heads of maces, but just pretend... Those conditions are also ideal for decomposing other things, like most organic materials (polymers, plastics, leather). Stick an armor jacket in a dikoting chamber and you'll have a big, thick layer of soot all over the interior when you're done, but no jacket. And probably one pissed dikoting operator, too. Low melting point metals like magnesium, tin, lead and aluminum will melt. The (obsolete in RL) process described for dikoting in SR takes quite a few hours, too, because the deposition rate is low so you can bet the target will reach ambient temperatures. So, basically, ask yourself: would the object survive being heated to yellow heat for several hours on end? If the answer is "No," don't stick it in the dikoting chamber. ;) A short list of survivable materials: Titanium Steel Ballistic Ceramics (like used in milgrade armor) Except for the plates in "vest with plates," the only armors I allow to be dikoted in my game are military grade armors. (Yes, putting metal in this microwave chamber is safe - the chamber is probably metal. I know the dikoting system at Georgia Tech used stainless steel construction and dikoted titanium targets).
The diamond is NOT melted. It starts out as methane, is turned into free flying carbon, and then only forms diamond when it smacks into a target. There's never a point where the diamond is melted in the dikoting process. It's more like frost condensing out of atmospheric humidity on a cold morning. |
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Dec 4 2003, 04:46 PM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 488 Joined: 4-August 03 From: Amidst the ruins of Silicon Valley. Member No.: 5,242 |
Interesting. So you wouldn't allow the plates of, say, an armored long coat or an armor jacket (both of which possess ratings comparable to the plated vest) to be Dikote'd? The novels of the system strongly suggest that both have trauma plates sewn into them.
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Dec 4 2003, 05:11 PM
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#8
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Target Group: Members Posts: 46 Joined: 16-August 03 From: Dallas, TX Member No.: 5,494 |
Plating is not the process of dipping something in a melted volume of metal. Well, not often. These days, more often than not, Electroplating is used. I am sure by the time your characters want these things done, more advanced methods of plating have come along. However, Electroplating uses a weak acid that melts the metals, or other components, and what it is to bond to. Then an electrical current is used to add electrons and force them to bond. For shoes, basically you metallize them by spraying them with a two-component silvering solution. One part is a soluble silver salt, and the other part is a reducing agent; when they meet on the surface of the shoes, metallic silver is deposited. Then you carefully electroplate the silver with Bronze. Hope this helps. S.Grimm Son of two Master Jewelers. |
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Dec 4 2003, 05:23 PM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 124 Joined: 21-November 03 Member No.: 5,837 |
Kurukami,
I am sure he meant he would allow you to Dikote all plates made of metal, for vests, armor jackets, etc. My GM will allow us to take plates from enemies vests and replace our beat up ones from our long coat....ie all plates(for vests, jackets, etc) are interchangable...I am not sure how canon it is, but it makes sense to me. Dikoting armor does what exactly? to a weapon it is +1 +1 right? so 6M becomes 7S...with armor is it +1/+1 Ball/Impact of 5/3 becomes 6/4? |
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Dec 4 2003, 05:37 PM
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#10
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Weeeellll... There's only two canon suits of armor that use rigid armor plates as part of the armor (and not as the WHOLE of the armor, like Secure and MilGrade etc): Armored Vest with Plates and the Lined Coat. The rest use flexible armor fibers, like Kevlar, or are completely made out of rigid metal plates. Those two (LC & AV+P) certainly don't have the same kind of plates, since the plates in an Armored Vest look something like this, while the ones in a Lined Coat are supposed to only protect vital areas. Additionally, the Lined Coat has a worse armor rating (4/2 vs 4/3) than the AV+P, so it cannot possibly be as thick, because it certainly covers more area than the AV+P. |
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Dec 4 2003, 05:53 PM
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#11
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,428 Joined: 9-June 02 Member No.: 2,860 |
Oh, well, I let the vest benefit from dikoting since it's so out in your face about having plates, while the long coat just mumbles about them in its text and provides less armor despite more coverage. Very logical, neh? :) |
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Dec 5 2003, 01:00 AM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 608 Joined: 9-July 02 From: California Member No.: 2,955 |
So if it were a lined coat WITH PLATES! it'd be cool?
Haha, now there's a clothing line... "Where'd you get that shirt?" "At WITH PLATES! dude, it can be dikoted!" "Sweet." "Yeah." |
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Dec 5 2003, 01:03 AM
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#13
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Duuuuuuude... I gotta get me one of them.
Short answer, the only thing you can really do to better a weapon is dikote it or make it into a weapon focus. Adding monofilament is a factory-only option, there are no canon rules for it. If you want to try, that's between you and your GM. ~J |
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Dec 5 2003, 02:01 AM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 413 Joined: 20-November 03 Member No.: 5,835 |
And your local finger-reattachment specialist. =D |
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Dec 5 2003, 05:27 AM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 665 Joined: 20-November 03 Member No.: 5,834 |
One thing I've always wondered, where are the canon silver bullets? There's loads of nasty critters running around that are weak against silver, and that people hate, why no silver bullets? Also would radical silver get a bonus?
Also in-game I recall houseruling a new ammo desinged with a variant of the hermetic circle micro-etched onto each bullet. Essentally that created magic missiles, each one contained a force 1 astral barrier that would rip into the aura of the target, normal damage vs. mundanes (Since to them it was a normal bullet) and spirits (They ignored the physical component), double damage vs. dual natured types, one astral and one physical attack. I was having trouble with overpowered shapeshifter characters and that really scared them. |
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| Guest_Artemis_* |
Dec 5 2003, 07:52 AM
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#16
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Guests |
One thing I do know after countless hours of arguing amongst GMs and players.
Monofilament wire cannot be dikoted. You could dikote the sides of a monofilament sword and get extra damage to your stunning club attacks whenever you bludgeon somebody with the side of it, and then slice them up with the edged bit afterward. If someone can describe a good way to make it work, I'm sure that will rouse some new debate again. The other debate was over monofilament whips being allowed as weapon foci. I believe we resolved that it was impossible to lace a single string of monofilament with orichalcum, since it makes the chain of atoms wider than the concept mono-filament width. Same problem as with the dikoting principle. Dikoting swords and other weapon foci is a lot of fun, the only drawback being that the extra damage doesn't translate into astral space when one goes fully astral. But any help in the physical universe is welcomed help in the life of a shadowrunner. |
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Dec 5 2003, 08:01 AM
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#17
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Orichalcum does not need to permeate the entire weapon for it to be made into a Focus. It just needs to be present. It could be incorporated into the weight at the end of the whip, or the handle/ring/whatever that you use to wield it. |
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Dec 5 2003, 08:05 AM
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#18
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Ammo is designed in the same chapter that describes customizing firearms, so I just use the Custom Finish (Silver) customization with Regular Ammo. 1,020 nuyen for 10 silver bullets. |
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Dec 5 2003, 09:07 AM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 665 Joined: 20-November 03 Member No.: 5,834 |
Holy Freaking cow, you realize that given an exchange rate of 2 nuyen to 1 dollar US (Personally I think it's more along the lines of 1:1 given that a huge Hamburger is 3 nuyen) you could buy 100 ounces of silver for that? I don't even want to think about what caliber of bullets those are, presumably you're silvering anti-tank missiles or something.
Also SR3 page 275 indicates that a monofilament whip is not actually a monomolecule, so possibly it could actually take dikote since it's not a molecule thick in the first place. No friction might be worth the increase in thickness. |
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Dec 5 2003, 11:21 AM
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#20
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i assume the rest of the cost goes into finding someone with experience in doing that sort of thing, as well as the materials involved. it's not like you can just dunk your bullets in molten silver and have done with it. for one thing, the bullet has to be the same diameter--that is, the same caliber--as the weapon you have to use it in; plating it with silver will make it a thicker, heavier bullet. that means you need to come up with bullets that are a few micrometers thinner than normal--which means you'll need to have them cast custom for the purpose. once they're plated, you've got to judge their new weight and balance--silver is lighter than lead, which means you'll maybe want to use a few less grains of gunpowder when you're hand-loading it.
on the other hand, silver bullets should probably be a lot more common in SR, both because they're actually effective against certain creatures, and because lots of people probably think they're effective against an even wider variety of creatures. |
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 Dec 5 2003, 12:17 PM
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#21
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Target Group: Members Posts: 47 Joined: 25-November 03 From: Somewhere in the back of your mind Member No.: 5,845 |
Its amazing how effective those silver bullets are against Orks :rollin: |
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Dec 5 2003, 12:44 PM
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#22
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Isn't silver a rather heavy metal (10.5g/cm^3 vs ~7.5-8g/cm^3 for steel and 11.3g/cm^3 for lead)? And isn't it rather soft, at least compared to steel?
So why the hell couldn't you just make bullets out of silver just like you make bullets out of lead or other such materials? They shouldn't cost much more than normal bullets, and I'm sure they would be a LOT cheaper to manufacture APDS rounds (tungsten isn't exactly cheap either, and is way more difficult to make bullets out of). "Plating" bullets with silver sounds rather dumb, when making the whole bullet out of silver would be far more effective in every respect, and cheaper to boot. PS. Yes, I know lead bullets aren't (usually) made completely out of lead, but you could make the silver bullet with an exposed tip of silver and a full silver core with a jacket. Or, a worst case scenario, you could use a subcaliber solution and fit a full silver bullet inside a discarding plastic sabot. In all these cases, you'd end up with something a lot more believable and a lot cheaper than silver plated bullets. This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Dec 5 2003, 12:48 PM |
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Dec 5 2003, 12:48 PM
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#23
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,428 Joined: 9-June 02 Member No.: 2,860 |
You should be able to make silver bullets. It is right there with lead and copper in mechanical performance, and you can tweak it with a bit of alloying (I mean, fractions of a percent additions, not major dilution) to get the performance you want. Separate topic: IMO, if a weapon focus was dikoted prior to being enchanted, the dikoting bonus does translate to astral space. It's part and parcel of the object's pattern. I mean, if you can't translate dikote over when dikote was part of the original object, you probably can't translate over sharp edges or other integral, basic features of the weapon, and all weapon foci would just have a single damage code. |
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Dec 5 2003, 12:49 PM
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#24
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Exactly what I wanted to hear. Thanks. |
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Dec 5 2003, 01:00 PM
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#25
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Target Group: Members Posts: 63 Joined: 8-November 03 Member No.: 5,803 |
Well...if you were feeling rich, you could melt down some diamonds to obtain the carbon you need, but for most shadowrunners, your probably better off with graphite :) |
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