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Neondante
post Mar 10 2008, 06:20 PM
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Just a quick question... one of my players is making a new character, and wants to use a cybered out troll archer. (I told him that no, he could not be an archer adept. The power of forum lurking!) How do you handle bows that can outshoot panther cannons? Are they high availability, (The option I've been thinking of) prohibitavely expensive, or do you just let them have it? I'm a bit leery of giving a player a weapon that powerful in the start of the game. Do any of you have experiences with archer fiends to share?

Would the draw on a strength 11 bow slice his fingers off if he actually pulled hard enough to draw it?

The player is accepting my rule 0 might well enough, but I think he aught to be able to get a bow like that eventually. In the meantime he's going to use throwing knives and baseball bats.
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Nightwalker450
post Mar 10 2008, 06:26 PM
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According to RAW you can't start with a rating Higher than 6. (Someone else can find the page)

Once in game, I'd make bow availablilty at the extreme ends fairly difficult. Make them do some runs just to get a hold of a bow, go against another bow adept troll to get his bow. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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Drogos
post Mar 10 2008, 06:28 PM
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HOORAY ONE TRICK PONIES!!!!

What does it matter he can shoot a bow that hits as hard/er as a Panther Cannon. It's less than SS firing, it's limited severly in ammo capacity (you can only shove so many arrows into a quiver) and armor is unaffected. So what if he does it. Multiple opponents will hose him. Close quarters (too small for his bow, etc.) will hose him. Situations where killing does not help will hose him. Seems like a street sammy with a niche to me, what's the point of saying no...other than Explosions should hurt more than arrows...silly gamesystems not working within reality.

As for reining the big bow in, just make bows cap at a certain rating unless he makes and degsigns it himself (requiring him to have/develope an alternate skill set).
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Seven-7
post Mar 10 2008, 06:28 PM
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Nightwalker450
post Mar 10 2008, 06:41 PM
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Bleh, don't dis the One Trick Ponies, archers are cool, and fun to play. Its not their fault that bows are crazy powerful weapons. But there are plenty of ways to handle the use of bows. Might not be restricted, but they are definatly hard to conceal.

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Drogos
post Mar 10 2008, 06:48 PM
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Truth be told, no dising coming from me. I like the bow. Big fan, I was just pointing out that it really is only 'broken' when everything is sunk into them. I happen to enjoy one trick ponies from time to time. But yes, the bow can seem broken cause it can do lots of damage from a starting character. But can't be hidden, makes most people snicker or think you nuts and really, where on the earth is a Troll going to find a 11 strength bow, a hunting supply store (yes I realize, the exact same argument can be made for every piece of a runner's equipment, but really, who would have at hand a 10+ strength bow).
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Slymoon
post Mar 10 2008, 07:06 PM
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QUOTE (Drogos @ Mar 10 2008, 01:48 PM) *
Truth be told, no dising coming from me. I like the bow. Big fan, I was just pointing out that it really is only 'broken' when everything is sunk into them. I happen to enjoy one trick ponies from time to time. But yes, the bow can seem broken cause it can do lots of damage from a starting character. But can't be hidden, makes most people snicker or think you nuts and really, where on the earth is a Troll going to find a 11 strength bow, a hunting supply store (yes I realize, the exact same argument can be made for every piece of a runner's equipment, but really, who would have at hand a 10+ strength bow).



Not horribly difficult to make, arc welder + old vehicle leaf springs and some cable will make you a crude but very strong bow *these days*.

Though I have said my peace on the troll bow in previous threads. Maxed out human bow can = a panther also.
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Dashifen
post Mar 10 2008, 08:22 PM
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QUOTE (Nightwalker450 @ Mar 10 2008, 12:26 PM) *
According to RAW you can't start with a rating Higher than 6. (Someone else can find the page)


Bows don't have a rating per se, instead they have a Strength Minimum. You'll also note that this strength minimum doesn't effect its availability, which is another limiting factor.
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Synner667
post Mar 10 2008, 08:48 PM
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Why does the character want to play an archer ??

A professional archer would probably be similar to a martial artist, and unlikely to be a man-who-uses-a-bow-just-because-it-causes-lotsa-damage because of the discipline and training - there are much easier weapons to learn and use, if you only want to cause lotsa damage.

Tho, if you're just playing gunbunny characters with no rationale to their character, it doesn't really matter.


There's a Troll archer in one of the new SR novels, which is done quite well..
..And an Troll archer Adept in [at least] one of the Earthdawn novels, which is quite well done.

I'd imagine that since STR:6 is supposed to be the upper limit for Humans, a STR:10+ bow would take custom designing and making, making it rare and expensive..
..And a great thing for the character to work towards, as would a foldable bow.

I imagine the main reason bows are so powerful is because they weren't thought about very much, with no-one really expected to use one - so the rules weren't really sorted out >shrug<
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Edge2054
post Mar 10 2008, 09:03 PM
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Really there's not a lot of reason he couldn't start with a bow equal to his strength. Granted he might need to know someone capable of building such a bow or be able to build it himself. A sporting good store probably wouldn't carry bows over a 4 or 6 str minimum because there wouldn't be a lot of demand for anything more.

I agree with some of the points above as to why it's not game breaking, it's hard to conceal for one, single shot for two, and for three it's REALLY distinctive. Tracking down a runner that shoots 1 meter long arrows (probably what a troll sized bow would fire) can't be that hard.

Granted bows do have advantages (practically silent, high damage, low availability) but for a professional runner I think the drawbacks outweigh them enough that it's not game breaking. Well as long as the GM doesn't let the player conveniently forget about the drawbacks anyhow.
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Fortune
post Mar 10 2008, 09:37 PM
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You might want to consider a house rule that makes base bow damage STR/2+whatever instead of STR+whatever.
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Rail
post Mar 11 2008, 12:33 AM
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You can always take the signature item approach. It has been stated before in this thread how rare a bow of that make would be. A custom job like this can only be made by a select few people, and that makes it a liability. When Detective Joe Lonestar is looking for leads on the guy who kills Citymasters with an arrow, it would only be a matter of time. Not to mention the specially made arrowheads and shafts it would take to actually survive that kind of acceleration without warping wouldn't be cheap or off the shelf either.
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toturi
post Mar 11 2008, 01:33 AM
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QUOTE (Rail @ Mar 11 2008, 08:33 AM) *
You can always take the signature item approach. It has been stated before in this thread how rare a bow of that make would be. A custom job like this can only be made by a select few people, and that makes it a liability. When Detective Joe Lonestar is looking for leads on the guy who kills Citymasters with an arrow, it would only be a matter of time. Not to mention the specially made arrowheads and shafts it would take to actually survive that kind of acceleration without warping wouldn't be cheap or off the shelf either.

Why would they be rare? Are the Availabilities of said bow and arrows any different from other bows and arrows? If you want to seperate the rarity and exclusiveness of the items from its Availability as a GM, you are free to do so, but to do so mid-game, when the archer's player made this concept precisely because it is no more traceable or any more a liability than a normal strength-ed bow, then perhaps you should have told him so, before the game started.

An archer PC need not really be a 1 trick pony. Consider that an archer is likely to have high Strength. He could make use of this high Strength to punch people up in melee. Unarmed 4 is only 16 BPs. If he was an archer adept, he could have a Combat Ax weapon focus as a melee option and carry a riot shield to boot. Long range - use bow to kill Citymasters, short range - use Combat Ax weapon focus and shield.
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Edge2054
post Mar 11 2008, 01:58 AM
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I think it would take a custom job to make the bow, just because most companies aren't going to mass produce something used by such a small minority of the population. Of course things may be different in the NAN but finding a bow above str 6 would be a chore in a place like Seattle.

As far as rare goes though.... it's rare for a crime to be committed with a bow to begin with. A bow that fires meter long arrows is even rarer. Going this route is leaving your calling card every time you fire that weapon and it wouldn't take long for someone to find you if they wanted to.
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Jaid
post Mar 11 2008, 02:30 AM
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out of curiosity, why would a strenght 8 or 9 bow be so rare? that's about average for a troll, and upper level strength for an ork, but it's also upper augmented strength for a human, and i see no reason why they wouldn't have any at all. sure, maybe not much, but having one (or having easy access to one via mail) would make perfect sense. after all, i'm sure there are plenty of bow hunters who would like to be able to take down elephants, piasmas, etc with some degree of reliability. some of them will be rich fraggers who can afford to augment their strength for hunting purposes.

so sure, you probably won't find it at Bob's hunting mart, but if you go to a high-end hunting store (or a fixer who knows someone who knows someone who works at one) i see no reason why you couldn't have a strength 8 or 9 bow made no problem.

now if we were talking strength 18 or something, that would be tricky. (that's a troll boosted to their absolute maximum, natural strength of 12 having taken the genetic thing plus the quality to be able to do so. you could do an even higher strength version if you want to get into cyberarms with strength boosts in them =D )
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Edge2054
post Mar 11 2008, 03:44 AM
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QUOTE (Jaid @ Mar 11 2008, 02:30 AM) *
so sure, you probably won't find it at Bob's hunting mart, but if you go to a high-end hunting store (or a fixer who knows someone who knows someone who works at one) i see no reason why you couldn't have a strength 8 or 9 bow made no problem.


This is the key here, made no problem. I'm not saying it would be hard to get one, I'm just saying you're going to most likely go to a specialty bow store and have one custom made for you, build one yourself, or have an armorer build one for you.

Industry is about demand and the lower the demand the less likely something is going to be mass produced. The number of people that bow hunt to begin with is small, the number that would need something with more pull then a str 6 bow is even smaller (keep in mind that trolls are the least common meta-human race). Bows aren't hard to make by any means, I'm just saying that very few if any companies would mass produce them and that very few stores would carry them. I'm not saying that I wouldn't let a character go through reasonable means to get one, I'm just saying you're not going to pick one up at your favorite hunting chain, and by reasonable means I'm not implying a whole run or whatever like was implied earlier. I'm just saying you'll either need to be able to build it yourself, know someone who can, or know someone who knows someone who can.

Other then that, my whole argument about rarity wasn't about the availability of the weapon, but the rarity of a shadowrunner using such a weapon. It's a very distinctive thing and that in itself is a huge liability.


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Calabim
post Mar 11 2008, 04:04 AM
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As a hunter as well as a former employee of Bass Pro Shop's Outdoor World I wanted to add my 2 cents. On a compound bow the draw strength and draw length can be slightly adjusted. I would say one or two points in ether direction. The fiberglass part of the box can break if the draw str. is too high. And it looks cool when it happens. However I would say that this would no longer be a problem in 2070.

I really think you guys are being to hard on getting the bow. Bow hunters special order all the time. And as Jaid mentioned high strength is not as uncommon as it is now. I know that bows have the potenional to do alot of damage and we are looking for ways to balance that. However, as long as there are troll bow hunters is 2070 I don't see any problem with them finding there weapon of choice. As to the pull injuring the trolls fingers, that is what an archery glove is for.
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Shadow
post Mar 11 2008, 04:53 AM
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While looking at the rule pg 145-150 (SR4 4th printing) I didn't see anything about reduced damage on arrows, other than against barriers. I don't see any reason why a bow would break anygame really.

Trollbane moved quietly behind the parked cars, bow in the ready. Suddenly the lights come on, the entire area is illuminated. 5 heavily armed men come running out of the building. They are packing Colt M-23's.

-Iitiative is rolled. The troll wins, fires 1 shot. Hits the guard with a ridicules 12P. Guard dodges, takes 5 hits off of the 12P. His armor and bod only has to reduce 7P.

This is not a one shot one kill weapon.

Now the guards all go.... needless to say the troll is going to be hurting.


If he has some back up, and he acts as a sniper then maybe things will be different. Then the modifiers from shooting behind, and into cover are really going to hurt him.

Thats in combat. Now after he has 30 seconds to get his arrows back or someone is going to track them back to him. Either the traditional way or through ritual sorcery. Of course the same can be said for any runner useing any gear, normally there just isn't enough left of a bullet to use in sorcery.

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Shinobi Killfist
post Mar 11 2008, 04:54 AM
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QUOTE (Fortune @ Mar 10 2008, 05:37 PM) *
You might want to consider a house rule that makes base bow damage STR/2+whatever instead of STR+whatever.


That is what I'd do. Every other muscle powered weapon is str/2+whatever why is the bow different?

This always feels like something that should be errata just to fit the same logical consistency as every other muscle powered weapon. I'm not even saying I think the troll bow is overpowered, just that it seems to fit the game better given how every other muscle powered weapon works.

Also if it was str/2+whatever maybe we could see some cool adept powers based off the bow kind of like the earthdawn archer. At full str, they don't really need something that boosts there damage. And to me that would be cool since after the nethermancer the archer was my favorite class, then the sky raider. Damn now I want to play earthdawn again.
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Rail
post Mar 11 2008, 06:24 AM
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QUOTE (toturi @ Mar 10 2008, 05:33 PM) *
Why would they be rare? Are the Availabilities of said bow and arrows any different from other bows and arrows? If you want to seperate the rarity and exclusiveness of the items from its Availability as a GM, you are free to do so, but to do so mid-game, when the archer's player made this concept precisely because it is no more traceable or any more a liability than a normal strength-ed bow, then perhaps you should have told him so, before the game started.


I absolutely would have made any difficulty or expense differences before the campaign started. I did the same thing with my 2068 game that takes place in Oakland and San Fransisco.

Part of my GM style is that I do not, under any circumstance, decide things are too overpowered. If I allowed it at one point, I don't feel the need to screw the character because of some unintended effect. The opposition is smarter than most people give them credit for, if it is that over the top, they will adapt. Maybe I am lucky that few, if any, of my players feel the need to grab the rules by the nipples and twist until they squeal.

Edit: I just wanted to make a couple more points. I am not against this type of character, but I would inform any one wanting this concept of some of the inherent challanges I feel there would be in addition to the normal ones of being a shaddowrunner. Also, I remember an experiment we had to see which was better, the strength based archer or the ability based one. We ran some of the numbers and found that on average the elven stat/skill based archer consistently outperformed the troll maxed strength one. The skill one almost always hit and did horrendous damage when it was staged up (unless it was hardened), so the player in question went that direction instead of the troll one.
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Cardul
post Mar 11 2008, 07:49 AM
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QUOTE (Rail @ Mar 11 2008, 01:24 AM) *
Also, I remember an experiment we had to see which was better, the strength based archer or the ability based one. We ran some of the numbers and found that on average the elven stat/skill based archer consistently outperformed the troll maxed strength one. The skill one almost always hit and did horrendous damage when it was staged up (unless it was hardened), so the player in question went that direction instead of the troll one.


Interesting thought: You could do that with an Ork, have only one less agility then the elf base, but have a higher strength. With Genetic Optimization(Agility), for 9 more build points and .2 essence, you can get yourself to the same level as the Elf agility wise. From there, you use some muscle 'wares plus a synaptic booster level, and you have someone who is both agility AND strength.
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Crusher Bob
post Mar 11 2008, 07:56 AM
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QUOTE (Shadow @ Mar 11 2008, 12:53 PM) *
-Iitiative is rolled. The troll wins, fires 1 shot. Hits the guard with a ridicules 12P. Guard dodges, takes 5 hits off of the 12P. His armor and bod only has to reduce 7P.


Erm, your math seems to be off here:

Archer troll wins initiative and fires off at guard 1, rolling 18 dice, gets 6 hits.

Guard 1 aborts to full defense and rolls 6 dice (AGL 3 + Dodge 3) and gets 2 hits.

So guard 1 is looking at damage of (assuming base damage is 12P) 16P

He has body 4, and is wearing an armored jacket (8 armor) so he soaks 4 and takes 12P, being killed outright.

---------

Also, the comparison is a bit of a straw man, since only a combat mage has a chance against five guys at once, since he can level them all with a stun ball. A gun bunny with a semi-auto grenade launcher might have a chance too, but any regular combat character build is just going to be toast.



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Synner667
post Mar 11 2008, 08:11 AM
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QUOTE (Rail @ Mar 11 2008, 06:24 AM) *
Maybe I am lucky that few, if any, of my players feel the need to grab the rules by the nipples and twist until they squeal.



That is such a great, and very visual, phrase !!
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Stahlseele
post Mar 11 2008, 08:30 AM
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and if you use the genetic optimization for agility, some msucle ware for strength and some cyber-limbs and armor you can do a good mix between the strong, the quick and the tough . . if you know where to find the Brick build and where to deviate from that build *g*
And then you can make him a reasonable well off breaking and entering specialist too, because stealth comes from agility and climbing from strength if i remember that ultimate mundane climber build correctly . . granted, that character will never be one of those hyped up speed monsters with reflexes like a doped out cat . . but it would not fit the character concept of the climbing tank either *g*
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Fortune
post Mar 11 2008, 08:53 AM
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QUOTE (Crusher Bob @ Mar 11 2008, 06:56 PM) *
Guard 1 aborts to full defense and rolls 6 dice (AGL 3 + Dodge 3) and gets 2 hits.


nitpick: Reaction, not Agility. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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