Troll Bowmen Options

[Drogos]

Makes it very easy to take out a vehicle though...

Which makes for everyone's favorite result... EXPLOSIONS!!!!!

Just Kidding...cars going boom is silly, especially with a bow (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Prime Mover]

Think confusion comes from the old hardened armor rules which doubled armor rating. 4th Edition is trying to make one set of rules for all combat and can see how the wording at first glance can seem to imply the doubling up. Using 4th edition makes it possible to stop a "Patrol 1" with an assult rifle if doubled up armor rating it might not even scratch it.

Maybe we can get an official to chime in, but honestly it's how I'm seeing it. Vehicle modified armor rating is the same as PC armor rating modified by AP +/-.


Edit: I won't comment on how this effects bows hehe.

[Fortune]

Sorry Shadow, but I also have to go with the others on this. 'Modified Armor' in this case refers to the Armor, modified by the AP of the attacking implement. Body is only factored into the actual Resistance test itself. Basically it works the same as the regular armor rules, but replace 'converts Physical damage that does not exceed armor rating to Stun damage' with 'converts Physical damage that does not exceed Armor to nothing', as vehicles have no Stun track. Again, Body only comes into the equation when it is time to make the actual Resistance test.

[Shadow]

You could all be right, just doesn't make sense to me that a car would have less armor than a armored sam.

[Neondante]

Basically every post on this page

Just so you all know, "put an arrow through an armored car" was a purposeful exaggeration. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Yeah, rating x 2 sounds reasonable... that way a non munchy character could have a bow straight away, and an archery monster will have to wait a bit. Thanks a lot for the help!

[Fortune]

You could all be right, just doesn't make sense to me that a car would have less armor than a armored sam.

Well, the Body of most vehicles is typically going to be a little bit higher than a metahuman (except maybe a troll), and Arsenal allows up to Body x2 in Armor (possibly more, as I haven't delved all that deep yet). Auto-fire also doesn't factor into the equation as far as AP is concerned either.

[Prime Mover]

You could all be right, just doesn't make sense to me that a car would have less armor than a armored sam.

Quoted from arsenal Pg.133 "The maximum armor rating of each armor
type a vehicle can have is twice its Body rating (or three times
its Body rating for drones of the micro, mini, small, medium,
and large size), up to a maximum of 20 with normal armor or
10 with concealed or smart armor."

So you can certainly raise the armor rating of any vehicle to keep up with the neighbors Umm I mean a Sammie. Following these rules a Patrol-1 could have 20 armor and 10 body. DV Would have to exceed 20 when compared to modified armor value after opposed rolls, even then the vehicle would get 30 dice to soak if it did get through.

[Drogos]

Yeah, rating x 2 sounds reasonable... that way a non munchy character could have a bow straight away, and an archery monster will have to wait a bit. Thanks a lot for the help!

Though he may feel chumped limited to 8p starting. Plus that does facto into range, but if all is good, it does give him something to work towards and gives you the option to make a story around his procurement of his bow. Cause weapons with stories are cool!!!

[Shadow]

That's if you, the GM, modify the car. The car's as written do not.

[Prime Mover]

That's if you, the GM, modify the car. The car's as written do not.

Keep your players on there toes. Who knows the Lone Star got a nice extra chunk of budget this year due to random shooting at there cars by local gangs. War even on the street can be a matter of escalation if you shoot enough patrol cars the media will force those in charge to make changes. Or so we see today. Keep those players wondering is this car a norm or one of those new concealed armor versions with full body armor swat guys there fielding now to deal with increased street violence. I hate a group of shadowrunners who won't respect the authority of the law! Or at least respect the incoming fire!

[Fortune]

That's if you, the GM, modify the car. The car's as written do not.

The cars as written are still rolling a fair amount of dice (Body + Armor) against a highly reduced DV though.

[Neondante]

Though he may feel chumped limited to 8p starting. Plus that does facto into range, but if all is good, it does give him something to work towards and gives you the option to make a story around his procurement of his bow. Cause weapons with stories are cool!!!

Exactly. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) The best he could come up with for his bow was finding it off a heavily cybered elf ganger. (As he's a former member of the spikes.) Bit of a stretch. Though he is new to the game. (Wheras I, while having very little playing experience, have had books from every edition from 2 forewards.)

[Rail]

Sorry Shadow, but I also have to go with the others on this. 'Modified Armor' in this case refers to the Armor, modified by the AP of the attacking implement. Body is only factored into the actual Resistance test itself. Basically it works the same as the regular armor rules, but replace 'converts Physical damage that does not exceed armor rating to Stun damage' with 'converts Physical damage that does not exceed Armor to nothing', as vehicles have no Stun track. Again, Body only comes into the equation when it is time to make the actual Resistance test.

I agree. Your average patrol car with an armor of 10 becomes a little more survivable when you factor in (according to page 143 of your handy BBB) that burst damage is not taken into account versus the armor. So now your Sam needs 4 hits to do damage with his AK-97 (base DV 6 + 4 hits = 10DV vs. 10 armor -1AP). The burst counts for good damage IF you beat the armor, but won't help you overcome that obstacle. Not to mention that the patrol car resists the damage with 19 dice, long enough to hopefully call in reinforcements in the armor 20 body 16 Citymaster filled with angry armored men.

Believe me, losing a couple Banshees to long bursts from assault rifles with regular ammo made me look at the vehicle rules a bit harder to see what I was missing. Vehicle armor helps with the nickle and dime bullshit.

[Prime Mover]

Don't forget between the hit and the damage resistance test theres still an opposed test to lower that DV as well.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Like I said, I could be wrong, but i have been told I am right. But I see what you are saying. Makes it very easy to take out a vehicle though...

Really?

Even without body adding in, we find it ridiculously hard to hurt vehicles. Under the body+armor rules anything but a anti-vehicle missile is going to bounce off a nissan, you'd need 5 net successes to hurt one with a panther assault cannon and it would be virtually impossible to hurt one with a assault rifle. Heck under the just the armor rules to hurt a Nissan I need more than 3 successes with an assault rifle. I realize its armored but I don't think it is supposed to be grenade, panther assault cannon, heavy machine gun, and anything but anti-vehicle missile proof.

[b1ffov3rfl0w]

-Iitiative is rolled. The troll wins, fires 1 shot. Hits the guard with a ridicules 12P. Guard dodges, takes 5 hits off of the 12P. His armor and bod only has to reduce 7P.

This is not a one shot one kill weapon.

Dodging does not work that way! Good night!

[Fortune]

Dodging does not work that way! Good night!

Why the hostility? Shadow wasn't insulting you personally, and there was a follow-on discussion on Dodge.

[Fuchs]

How do you handle bows that can outshoot panther cannons?

I ban them. No super-bows in my campaign.

[thorr]

everyone seems to have missed the point here. two words - trick arrows! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Daier Mune]

as far as bows for a primary weapon, i think its an odd choice for a cybersam. an adept, sure, i could see that making sense.

a bow as a secondary weapon for a cybersam, absolutely. especialy if the cybersam is going with the whole '21st century samurai' mentality. yeah, he could potentialy shoot through a few hardened targets, but what would Shadowrun be without the rediculous combat feats?

[b1ffov3rfl0w]

Why the hostility? Shadow wasn't insulting you personally, and there was a follow-on discussion on Dodge.

I'm not hostile; I'm just drawn that way.

[b1ffov3rfl0w]

everyone seems to have missed the point here. two words - trick arrows! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

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