Analyze Device, A Math Problem Options

[Eyeless Blond]

I'll give you a free hint:

According to the rules, answer #1 is wrong. (No defaulting penalties on a successful Analyze Device)
((Edit--removed))

[GryMor]

I disagree:

The more net hits a character scores (the more hits exceed
the threshold), the more the task was pulled off with finesse
and flair. So a character who rolls 4 hits on a threshold 2 test
has scored 2 net hits.

A Success Test with a Threshold of 3 and 3 hits leaves you succeeding with 0 net hits. (There is no such things as a number of net successes).

As you believe otherwise, could you back up that belief with a page reference? Or have I missed a FAQ entry/errata for what I quoted?

[Slymoon]

pg. 56 right column 2nd paragraph under Thresholds

Thresholds
...So a character who rolls 4 hits on a threshold 2 test has scored 2 net hits.

hmmm...
I so wanted to back Eyeless, alas.

[Fortune]

With Analyze Device, I would give a bonus for working on the gun (customization, modification, etc), but not a bonus to actually firing it.

[Eyeless Blond]

I was reading the example on page 174 where they were actually talking about OR.

[GryMor]

I was reading the example on page 174 where they were actually talking about OR.

Well, that agrees with me as well. The example has a force 5 spell with 4 hits against OR 4 doing 5 DV, with specifically:

...his 4 hits would have been enough to reach the threshold
of 4... the bike would have taken 5 DV from
the spell (Raze didn’t score any net hits over the threshold
to raise the damage).

Specifically, 4 hits -4 OR +5 Force is 5 DV is 0 net hits + 5 Force. The spell succeeds but only does base damage because it has NO net hits.

So, care to revise your opinion?

[nathanross]

With Analyze Device, I would give a bonus for working on the gun (customization, modification, etc), but not a bonus to actually firing it.

This was my reading of Analyze Device. It is merely a diagnostic spell, and will give the user a increased knowledge of its mechanical workings. Thus, for said gun, it will only give you more dice on an Armorer test. On cars and drones, you get increased die on Mechanic tests.

[Eyeless Blond]

Well, that agrees with me as well. The example has a force 5 spell with 4 hits against OR 4 doing 5 DV, with specifically:

Specifically, 4 hits -4 OR +5 Force is 5 DV is 0 net hits + 5 Force. The spell succeeds but only does base damage because it has NO net hits.

So, care to revise your opinion?

You know, you're absolutely right. I was getting that part mixed up with the stuff on the previous column, which specifies that for Opposed Tests you need at least 1 net hit to succeed.

Boy do I feel stupid. Editing now...

[Eyeless Blond]

This was my reading of Analyze Device. It is merely a diagnostic spell, and will give the user a increased knowledge of its mechanical workings. Thus, for said gun, it will only give you more dice on an Armorer test. On cars and drones, you get increased die on Mechanic tests.

So, it's your opinion that "operating" a handgun is taking it apart and working with its guts?

Not that I'm disagreeing with you--I think I just demonstrated how savvy I am with SR4 rules--but that seems a little odd to me.

[nathanross]

So, it's your opinion that "operating" a handgun is taking it apart and working with its guts?

Not that I'm disagreeing with you--I think I just demonstrated how savvy I am with SR4 rules--but that seems a little odd to me.

Okay, now that I have had time to look up the description:

Type: P Range: T Duration: S DV: (F/2)
This spell allows the subject to analyze the purpose and operation of a device or piece of equipment within range of the sense. The caster must gain enough hits on the Spellcasting Test to beat the item's Object Resistance (see p. 174). Each net hit gives the subject a bonus die while operating the device, and allows the subject to ignore any skill defaulting modifiers for using the device while the spell is sustained.

Reading it as is, I cannot really debate that it does not apply to a Pistol, or even a staff in melee. To be honest, how you do it is up to you. Reading it verbatim, though, as long as you achieve net hits above Resistance (remember also that Force limits total hits, not just net hits), you get +DP equal to net hits. Also, since it is used on a device or a piece of equipment you can pretty much use it on anything. Kinda absurd if you think about it, but hey, It's Magic!

[Eyeless Blond]

What bothers me is that it takes 4 hits on the spell, requiring a Force 4 minimum spell, requiring somewhere near 12 dice on the Spellcasting test--a Detection spell expert, with Magic 6 and Sorcery 6--just to get back where you started, throwing AGI-1 dice at the firearms test. Below that you're casting a spell and actually doing worse on the test than you were before.

Meanwhile, you can just Powerbolt the damn gun and damage the gun even at Force 3. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Malicant]

Active detection spells kind of suck with that whole OR business. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sleepy.gif)

[CircuitBoyBlue]

It IS kind of weird that the spell only helps you while "operating" the device. It would make sense if it helped you on an armory test, but under RAW, you would need to cast the spell on whatever you were using to work on the gun, not the gun itself.

Personally, I think it's such an awesome spell that if OR weren't there, then every mage would become a fantastic sniper. Maybe you should just look at ways of mitigating the drawbacks you suffer. Like maybe using Psyche to cut the sustaining penalty in half, or a focus. Or taking the hit, and casting for someone else (the sammy could always use an extra die or two with his gun). Then, it's also more versatile than just a "shoot the gun better" spell. And if you were willing to get into melee, OR on a knife is a lot lower than on a gun. Or hey, even if you throw a rock.

[Mr. Unpronouncea...]

And this is why you get the Technomancer to lend you a machine sprite instead.

[Aaron]

Personally, I think it's such an awesome spell that if OR weren't there, then every mage would become a fantastic sniper. Maybe you should just look at ways of mitigating the drawbacks you suffer. Like maybe using Psyche to cut the sustaining penalty in half, or a focus. Or taking the hit, and casting for someone else (the sammy could always use an extra die or two with his gun). Then, it's also more versatile than just a "shoot the gun better" spell. And if you were willing to get into melee, OR on a knife is a lot lower than on a gun. Or hey, even if you throw a rock.

Or cast it using a (cross)bow as the target. Augmented Bowzilla!

[b1ffov3rfl0w]

Compared to Increase Attribute (Agility), is it so game-breakingly overpowered that you might be able to give someone a couple extra dice at the cost of Drain and having to sustain a spell?

I guess if the same spell can help someone edit a video, disarm a bomb, bypass a maglock, and use a medkit ... maybe. Would a True Strike spell be preferable?

[CircuitBoyBlue]

I just think there's gotta be better uses for Analyze Device than just insta-teaching a mage how to use a gun. It's almost like a magical skillwire system.

[Eyeless Blond]

I guess if the same spell can help someone edit a video, disarm a bomb, bypass a maglock, and use a medkit ... maybe. Would a True Strike spell be preferable?

Have one already; called Enhance Aim.

[Eyeless Blond]

You know, I absolutely agree with the comments made above about Analyze Device: how it should be more geared to understanding the purpose of the device rather than operating it, and shouldn't ramp up in power so fast after beating the OR. How about:


Analyze Device (v. 2.0) (Active, Directional)
Type: P | Test: O(WIL) | Range: T | Duration: S | DV: (F/2)

This spell allows the subject to analyze the purpose and operation of a device or piece of equipment within range of the sense. The caster must gain enough hits on the Spellcasting Test to beat the item’s Object Resistance (see p. 174). Each net hit gives the subject a bonus die to any knowledge skill to determine the function of the device, or build/repair skill to alter or repair the device, and allows the subject to ignore any skill defaulting modifiers for either operation on the device while the spell is sustained.

In addition, the spell gives the subject a bonus die per two net hits (round up) while operating the device, and allows the subject to ignore any skill defaulting modifiers for using the device while the spell is sustained.


The only remaining problem here is how sustaining the analyze device spell itself has such a huge negative effect on the results of the spell. For example, John Q. Shadowrunner would have to get 5 hits minimum (on a Force 5 spell), for the privilege of rolling the exact same number of dice to comprehend the nature of a computer than if he hadn't cast the spell at all. That seems very, very wrong to me.

[Eyeless Blond]

The more I think about it the more it bothers me how sustaining a spell always hits you rwith that -2 penalty, even if the sell is directly applied to the task at hand. Analyze Device interferes with you using a device. Invisibility interferes with your ability to sneak. Magic Fingers interferes with your ability to... use Magic Fingers? Doesn't sit right with me.

[Kyoto Kid]

...the last choice should read:

• Cows fall form orbit, Everyone dies

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[CircuitBoyBlue]

Magic Fingers interferes with your ability to... use Magic Fingers?

This actually makes perfect sense to me. I find that getting handsy on a date often leads to less chances to get handsy on a date.

You're right, though. It is messed up that some spells counteract themselves like that. But the only options I see are to house rule that sustaining penalties don't affect directly related tasks (which would seem perfectly reasonable to me, if I were your GM), or work around it. Sustaining foci, or Psyche work well.

Now that I think about it, I should look into getting some sustaining foci or Psyche for personal use...