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> What are the limitations of Control Thoughts?
Ranger
post Mar 12 2008, 03:22 AM
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I assume you can tell the target to attack his or her friends. Can you tell the target to kill himself or herself?

If you don't spend a simple action to command the target, what does the target do? Nothing? Act normally? Continue what you commanded him or her to do last?
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Method
post Mar 12 2008, 04:45 AM
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Welcome to Dumpshock, Ranger.

I haven't had a lot of experience with this spell in my games, but the description in the BBB (core rule book) seems pretty all-encompassing. It says:
QUOTE (SR4 p.203)
...directing everything the target does.
which to me implies total control.

As to your second question, I would generally rule that the controlled character would continue whatever they were ordered to (assuming its an ongoing task) or do nothing (standby mode). Same for any drone or spirit really.
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Ranger
post Mar 12 2008, 04:53 AM
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Thank you, Method.

Seems like a rather powerful spell if that's correct. It's basically a one-shot kill spell, then. I'm not saying you're wrong; I'm just musing.
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john_doe
post Mar 12 2008, 04:59 AM
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You also gotta remember that because it's a mental manipulation, the poor bastard you are controlling gets a chance to reduce your hits every Force combat turns. If they reduce it to zero, the spell is done, and you would need to recast.

So in combat it's pretty brutal.

Outside of combat, if you cast this at Force 4...they are gonna get a chance to shrug it off every 12 seconds...

....at least i think that's how it works...
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Fortune
post Mar 12 2008, 05:17 AM
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QUOTE (john_doe @ Mar 12 2008, 03:59 PM) *
You also gotta remember that because it's a mental manipulation, the poor bastard you are controlling gets a chance to reduce your hits every Force combat turns.


And an additional (cumulative) Resistance test each time the victim is given an order that goes against his nature.
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Method
post Mar 12 2008, 05:23 AM
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Fortune: I see a rules like that for Control Actions and Control Emotions, but is there such a rule for Control Thoughts?
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Fortune
post Mar 12 2008, 05:27 AM
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Shrug. Um ... I'm sure it's there somewhere. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Now that I look, I can't even find anything of the like for the two spells you listed either. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)
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Method
post Mar 12 2008, 05:31 AM
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Like I said I have little experience with the spell, so honestly don't know... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Ranger
post Mar 12 2008, 05:43 AM
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Thanks for the replies, guys.

Mr. Doe, you are correct about the target being allowed new tests to break free.

Fortune: I don't see that rule anywhere. It seems to me that you can tell the target to kill himself, and he will, no questions asked, and no chance to fight off the command.

Who needs powerbolt when you can command an enemy to shoot his buddies, then shoot himself all for only 1 drain value more?
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Fortune
post Mar 12 2008, 05:47 AM
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Might be a legacy from an earlier edition (or even another game entirely), but I was sure I remembered reading something of the like in relation to Control 'x' spells in Shadowrun.
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mike_the_fish
post Mar 12 2008, 07:02 AM
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Back in 3rd edition, this spell basically broke the campaign I was running. It looks like it might be less abusive in this edition, but even so, I would be wary of this spell.
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nezumi
post Mar 12 2008, 01:25 PM
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In SR3, it says: "Commands the target is deeply opposed to can be fought with a Willpower Test against the spell's Force, one test per command..."

I generally give modifiers based on precisely how opposed the character is to the action. An order to shoot Bob will just get a standard test, because he didn't like Bob much anyhow. An order to shoot himself would get a -4 modifier because he really does like himself.
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kanislatrans
post Mar 12 2008, 01:43 PM
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QUOTE (nezumi @ Mar 12 2008, 08:25 AM) *
In SR3, it says: "Commands the target is deeply opposed to can be fought with a Willpower Test against the spell's Force, one test per command..."

An order to shoot himself would get a -4 modifier because he really does like himself.



so hit him with a control emotions first to fill him with feelings of worthlessness and self loathing , and then hit him with the command thoughts to off himself. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

or how about " hold this grenade for me while I go to the little boys room" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

My street mage had a phobia involving mind spells. would only use them in extreme emergencies.

"I am not getting in that fraggers head. do you know how nasty it is in there???" C.'Wormwood" Degaulle (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
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Blade
post Mar 12 2008, 01:53 PM
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QUOTE ("nezumi")
I generally give modifiers based on precisely how opposed the character is to the action. An order to shoot Bob will just get a standard test, because he didn't like Bob much anyhow. An order to shoot himself would get a -4 modifier because he really does like himself.


Same here, and if the players complain about it, I remind them that opponents can also have this spell and ask them if they still disagree with that ruling.
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Ranger
post Mar 12 2008, 02:00 PM
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QUOTE (nezumi @ Mar 12 2008, 05:25 AM) *
In SR3, it says: "Commands the target is deeply opposed to can be fought with a Willpower Test against the spell's Force, one test per command..."

I generally give modifiers based on precisely how opposed the character is to the action. An order to shoot Bob will just get a standard test, because he didn't like Bob much anyhow. An order to shoot himself would get a -4 modifier because he really does like himself.


That sounds like a fair idea. I'm the GM in this game, so actually I was looking for a reasonable way to limit this spell, just in case. No player has it, yet, but I wanted to stop any potential headaches before they began.

Actually, wouldn't that be he gets a +4 modifier? As in, the target gets +4 to his Willpower Test? -4 means he'd be more likely to shoot himself. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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nezumi
post Mar 12 2008, 02:11 PM
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QUOTE (kanislatrans @ Mar 12 2008, 09:43 AM) *
so hit him with a control emotions first to fill him with feelings of worthlessness and self loathing , and then hit him with the command thoughts to off himself. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

or how about " hold this grenade for me while I go to the little boys room" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)


You can do a control emotions control thoughts double whammy, but that's a LOT of drain to swallow, and a lot of chances for the target to resist.

The grenade thing could go either way. If it's obvious the grenade has no pin, it's suicide, so -4 modifier to his check. If the guy can't tell if the grenade is armed or not, he'll be cautious, but might not think he's signing his death warrant, so maybe -2. If the grenade is inside of a teddy bear, he can do that with no penalty.

QUOTE (Ranger @ Mar 12 2008, 10:00 AM) *
Actually, wouldn't that be he gets a +4 modifier? As in, the target gets +4 to his Willpower Test? -4 means he'd be more likely to shoot himself. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


I don't play your heathen game, but I assume from your tricky double-speak that is how it would work for you (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) (No idea on what is an appropriate number, though. Like I said, I don't play your game, so you'll have to fine tune it yourself.)
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Ranger
post Mar 12 2008, 02:16 PM
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QUOTE (nezumi @ Mar 12 2008, 06:11 AM) *
I don't play your heathen game, but I assume from your tricky double-speak that is how it would work for you (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) (No idea on what is an appropriate number, though. Like I said, I don't play your game, so you'll have to fine tune it yourself.)


Maybe we're playing different editions. I'm playing SR4, where you add or subtract from your dice pool as a modifier, instead of modifying the target number which is what I assume you meant. So, a positive modifier means you get more dice pool to resist the spell.
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Fortune
post Mar 12 2008, 02:58 PM
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Since nezumi said he uses a Willpower test against the Force of the Spell (and hence a Threshold), maybe you might rule a -4 to the Threshold of the test.
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Velocity219e
post Mar 12 2008, 03:31 PM
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why all this control emotions fiasco, three commands.

Step 1
1, Write this (ambiguous suicide note)
2, Stand still
3, Don't react to any external stimulus for five minutes

Step 2
Shoot from a position acheivable via suicide

or optionally

'eat this pill'

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Jhaiisiin
post Mar 12 2008, 07:58 PM
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First time you use this on the players, they'll call for a house rule. Use "Control Thoughts" on one and have them turn in the rest of the team, or pull the alarm, or just lay down and wait for security. Non-lethal ways of showing the characters just how much this spell breaks things.
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MadPiper
post Mar 12 2008, 08:41 PM
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So outside of combat, the mind minupulation spells only work for a few minutes at best before you have to recast it?
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MadPiper
post Mar 13 2008, 01:15 AM
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Nvm, I found the answer in the book.

Every (Force) Combat Turns, the victim may spend a Complex Action to shake off the mental control.

And since this is stated in the Mind Manipulation description at the begining of the section. I guess that means that control actions, mob control, control thoughts, mob mind, control emotions, mob mind will generally last less than a minute. In combat their useful, outside of it, basically pointless. At least in comparision to the 3rd ed rule, which I think had no cap on time as long as you sustained it. Quote me if i'm wrong though.

I suppose only influence still is useful? Since its permanent?
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b1ffov3rfl0w
post Mar 13 2008, 01:57 AM
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Every (Force) turns the victim gets to make a Willpower + Counterspelling test; when hits on that reduce the net hits to 0 the spell ends. So less than a few minutes, unless you're casting at a high Force against someone with low Will.
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bibliophile20
post Mar 13 2008, 04:01 PM
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Of course, if they glitch, I would only count half of the hits towards reducing net hits, rounding down (and glitches should happen fairly regularly when dealing with with low Willpowers); a critical glitch would either double the number of "current" net hits or "reset" the spell with the original number of net hits.
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