Troll Hate? Options

[swirler]

Okay so a friend of mine said "wow I wouldn't want to play a troll because of all the hatred towards them." he claims to have gotten that from the BBB. I reread the beginning, and I still do not see this. I do not see that they are any worse off than anyone else, everyone is hated by some group somewhere but the population at large is used to them by now. \He has said this more than once so like I said I read the whole beginning last night and did not see it. Now in our old SR1 and SR2 games orks were not very well received but thats mostly because well orks always seemed the most vocal and violent about it. I thin that has calmed down too.

anyone else want to chime in?

[Drogos]

THere is no real reason to say they are hated any more than any other race in the BBB, but it is still partly your world. So if you want Trolls to be the most universally despised, go for it. I mean, I could see his reasoning behind it, but it isn't cannon or anything.

As for my take on it, Trolls are generally seen as stupid (lower Logic), dimwitted (lower Intuition), clumsy (lower Agility) and poorly socially adjusted (low Charisma). THey are also seen as brutes and toughs (due to High Strength and Body and their Dermal Armor), but they are not necessarily any of those. Certain people just see them as such.

[Whipstitch]

Yeah, your friend is likely overreacting a bit, although orks and trolls do generally face more prejudice than the other metas. Trolls are intimidating on an instinctual level because they're so fraggin' big, but at the end of the day it's a world filled with Magicians, dragons, drop bears and Mad Max style go-gangs who terrorize the highways of North America for sport. Trolls are definitely a bit marginalized (a troll likely has to come from a pretty wealthy family to have a shot at being a politician or lawyer) but for the most part your average sixth world citizen has bigger fish to fry than trolls, and most people in the setting are too damn greedy/desperate to turn down a troll's business. I mean, yeah, trolls have a rep for being big, scary and ignorant, but that just gives them something in common with 2 outta 3 SINless gangers.

[Jhaiisiin]

Not just in SR4, but previous editions, trolls always got hit with the "You're an ugly, stupid brute" label. It's played down in SR4 a bit, but it's still there. Given that these guys and girls are living monsters that are 50% larger than a beefy human, I can understand all the animosity towards them. Though after 30-40 years of them being around, you gotta figure people are adjusting finally.

[It trolls!]

I can get that even if they're not more discriminated against than orcs, there's bound to be problems with accessibility or availability of facilities and items. The "What do you mean, this building isn't troll-accessible?!" kind of way with doors or corridors being too small to accomodate a big, beefy troggy.

[swirler]

okay see that is pretty much the way I saw it. I don't think they are any more hated than anyone else (depends on where you are of course) It's okay I'll be running the game so I can do it the way I read it, which is what I said.

wow im rambling

oh one thing

troll pistols or other equipment
how freaking huge are they? and how does that work? mostly i have just kind of hand-waved it and not thought about it too much. But a few of our players are at the point int heir lives where "everything has to balance and make sense, reality and even fiction has to make sense next to everything else." They haven't said this in so many words, but it is the sentiment i get from what they say about things.

[Whipstitch]

Yeah, I don't care how open minded you are-- you're likely going to feel a bit put out the third time you're squeezed into an elevator with a troll or two. It's the ol' sleeping with an elephant conundrum.

[swirler]

I can get that even if they're not more discriminated against than orcs, there's bound to be problems with accessibility or availability of facilities and items. The "What do you mean, this building isn't troll-accessible?!" kind of way with doors or corridors being too small to accomodate a big, beefy troggy.

now that I agree with and use. It's just the idea I got from him was that he expects people to be walking down the street poking trolls with sticks

[Stahlseele]

Guns for example are not actually larger than the ones used by dwarves . . but put an ares predator in a dwarves hand and it looks like a Space Marine Bolter . . put the same gun into the hand of a troll . . and you'll think he looks kinda silly with that toy for a gun, whereas an LMG looks more or less like an Assault-Rifle if used by a troll . . they just fit the handles and triggers and such to the size of the fingers of trolls, else a troll-pistol would get a +2 on power or something like that and would need different ammo and the such . . a Troll-Knife will probably look like a short-sword to a human, and like a long-sword to a dwarf but there's nothing else to it.
In SR3 trolls got less problems when using two handed weapons like claymores or assault rifles in one hand, but other than that, nothing changed . .
to be back on topic: maybe people do hate trolls . . but hell, do you wanna go up to that guy who can throw you farther than you can jump and tell him that?

[swirler]

Guns for example are not actually larger than the ones used by dwarves . . but put an ares predator in a dwarves hand and it looks like a Space Marine Bolter . . put the same gun into the hand of a troll . . and you'll think he looks kinda silly with that toy for a gun, whereas an LMG looks more or less like an Assault-Rifle if used by a troll . . they just fit the handles and triggers and such to the size of the fingers of trolls,

so if a a troll frags a human ganger then picks up his gun he can't really fire it, correct? It has to be modified before he could use it.

[Drogos]

-2 for ork, elf and human sized, -4 for dwarf sized.

[It trolls!]

I think I need to clarify on my statement. Problems may arise not from the obvious acts of having to retrofit or rebuild certain things for troll but for the public oppinion it might create. Think of how sometimes an institution has to be sued to make a building handicap-accessible. There's always this movement of seemingly overly concerned people - well, I'm not eloquent enough to actually express it in English but I imagine, for example if I was paraplegic, people constantly expressing their sorry and their pity for you and making all your life about how your legs don't work, even if they don't mean bad, would really agitate me. I want to be recognized as me - not as "the poor soul, shackled to a wheelchair".
Now imagine being a troll and the same kind of people propagate troll rights, demand troll-accessibility in public buildings that have been built pre-awakening, etc. by generally expressing the likes of "Please do feel sorry for the trolls! They can't help being born big and ugly!"
Now you're a troll in society between racists, people who are constantly afraid of you, because you could smash their heads with your bare fists and those guys. Go figure.

[Jhaiisiin]

so if a a troll frags a human ganger then picks up his gun he can't really fire it, correct? It has to be modified before he could use it.

If it has a standard trigger-guard and isn't equipped with a smartlink to fire it for him, I'd say he's boned and has no chance of firing it, myself. You're fingers don't even fit in the trigger area, after all.
EDIT: That makes it a good idea to take hand razors though. Using the razor to pull the trigger would work.

[cREbralFIX]

In my games, I usually require troll characters to have troll sized items. There is a cost increase. In terms of guns, there are also caliber and performance differences. A Desert Eagle, chambered in 50 Action Express, is practically a hideout gun for a troll (with only enough room for a two fingered grip). For a human, it's a huge, heavy gun with a very large grip.

Now consider the strength and physiology differences. A revolver in 44 Magnum, pushing a 240 grain bullet at 1400 feet/sec, has a bit of recoil. This is translated through the hand, wrist, and up the arm. I hate firing full bore 44 Magnum. If I were a troll, this would be no big deal; perhaps it would even feel like what 22 Long Rifle feels to me.

So, yeah, there are legit reasons for fearing them.

But they do make great football players!

[masterofm]

I don't know in 30-40 years of trolls being around I really doubt that the majority of the population has adapted to what has been going on. Many races have tried to create their own personal safe haven because of the fact that metahumans are disliked. In the end though I think most trolls are disliked, but you just don't say it to their faces = )

Then again most humans probably don't like dwarfs, and orks. Maybe they think elves are ok... but still there are many who dislike them. The other factor I see in Trolls is that the world just isn't built for them. Most buildings are probably over 40 years old, and even if they are not I think some people will still not build a building a structure so that trolls can walk freely through the complex. It's not so much that is said but more what is implied. It always felt to me in the game that meta-humanity has gotten the short end of the stick.

[Ed_209a]

I think the scarcity of trolls works against them too.

Of the "scary" metas, most people see orcs up close every day, even if it's just the guy emptying the trash can by your desk. You hear stories about how orcs do this, and orcs do that, but you balance that by thinking, "Yeah, maybe, but Frank is nice enough."

Trolls on the other hand, are rare enough than you might not even see one every day. This means they are more defined by rumors and stereotypes. In the absence of observation, we rely on rumor and hearsay.

As a contemporary example, we "know" what Japanese business men are "supposed" to be like, but how many of us interact with one on a regular basis enough to really know?

[Daddy's Litt...]

Trools stando ut more than anyother race of changed ones. look into a crowd at a mall or psorting event and dwarves, elves and orks and blend in somewhat with the humans at a quick glance but Trolls always stand out. This probably makes them feel the difference far more than the other changed ones, resulting in more feelings of persecution, rightly or wrongly, and reflects in their atittude to make them more likely to over react to a perceived prejudice.

This is why, for their own good, the changed ones should be given their own living and socializing areas to prevent these erroneous feelings from starting up when they have to deal with people.

[Counter Weight]

Is it safe to assume that was what is called an IC post DLN?

[Stahlseele]

yeah, 'cause that worked with the reservations for the native american indians oh so well . .

[Daddy's Litt...]

I did not say concentration camps. but seperate areas, within urban environments, where they can live and work free of having to mix with humans or other types of changed ones.

Is it safe to assume that was what is called an IC post DLN?

that's why there a little "IC" note on it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[BRodda]

I can get that even if they're not more discriminated against than orcs, there's bound to be problems with accessibility or availability of facilities and items. The "What do you mean, this building isn't troll-accessible?!" kind of way with doors or corridors being too small to accommodate a big, beefy troggy.

In 1st and 2nd ed rules trolls didn't even stand upright most of the time. They generally had to knuckle walk like a gorilla. Odd as it might sound almost all the recent artwork and rules have shrunk trolls sizes down.

As for the OP, trolls have the reputation of being violent, stupid and brutal. That means that everyone tends to be scared of them, a very bad thing in a heavily armed society. People won't throw sticks, but they might talk slower to them, not give them the right change, over charge, and basically constantly watch them for the inevitable violent outburst. Reaching into there jacket to get something might even get guns drown down on them.

[Counter Weight]

That's why there a little "IC" note on it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Ah, I missed that. I'll have to pay more attention for those in the future.

[Stahlseele]

if i had meant to say concentration camps i would have drawn the analogy to the nazi regime, and coneversely, they DID work rather well . . at least, in regards to their REAL purpose . .
no, i meant the reservations of the NAN in America where they got to keep the land instead of having it being taken from them by the whiteys and pinkys . .
Then there's of course the precedent of the Tirs and the MetaHuman KingDoms in the AGS . .

[Naysayer]

In 1st and 2nd ed rules trolls didn't even stand upright most of the time. They generally had to knuckle walk like a gorilla. Odd as it might sound almost all the recent artwork and rules have shrunk trolls sizes down.

Excuse me, but what 1st and 2nd edition rules are you talking about? Because it sure ain't Shadowrun...

[coolgrafix]

See SR4 page 50 for details. Some nuggets...

For the majority of people, race -- or more accurately, metatype -- doesn't fi gure too much into their view of the world. After all, it's been close to fi ft y years since UGE occurred and people started changing into orks and trolls, and almost sixty since elves and dwarfs arrived on the scene. The average citizen sees other metatypes every day: we work with them, run into them at the Stuff er Shack, and party with them at bars and clubs. Our kids attend school with them every day. For the most part, the five basic metatypes have gotten used to being around each other and problems are far less prevalent than they used to be. That's not to say that many people don't still prefer the company of their own kind (witness meta-heavy nations like Tir Tairngire or the Black Forest Troll Kingdom for extreme examples), but this is based as much on shared experience as it is on any overt racism.

Still, it would be naive to say that racism doesn't exist. If you don't believe it, try being a troll and applying for a job as a corporate management trainee. Many workplaces still discriminate (particularly against orks and trolls) and other business establishments maintain subtle or not-so-subtle biases for or against particular metatypes. It doesn't just benefi t humans, either--a human or elf walking alone into the Big Rhino (a notorious ork restaurant in Seattle) will fi nd this out in a hurry.

Often it's the truly unusual who are singled out for discrimination: for example, even nearly ten years aft er the return of Halley's Comet brought SURGE and a new wave of changes, the so-called "changelings" still have a hard time finding acceptance within mainstream society, while the less common regional metavariants (such as menehunes, fomori, and night ones) encounter more prejudice than their more generic "vanilla" varieties.

Other topics on this page:

Pro-Meta Activist Groups
Racist Organizations