Wound modifier for vehicles and personas? Options

[Ranger]

Do vehicles and personas suffer from wound modifiers?

The example cybercombat in the SR4 book shows that programs can suffer wound modifiers, but the book doesn't specifically state that a hacker's persona suffers from wound modifiers. I'm guessing they do, but I just want to confirm.

Does a character suffer from real life wound modifiers in addition to persona wound modifiers while in the Matrix?

If vehicles suffer from wound modifiers, are there any vehicle-related tests that are not affected by the modifier, such as Sensory Tests or Gunnery Tests?

Do vehicles have overflow damage?

[fulcra]

I don't have an official answer for you, but it makes sense that vehicles would suffer wound modifiers, as their systems become more and more damaged. I would say it would apply to all tests. If half your sensors are melted or crushed, or your turret can fully rotate due to dented framing, then it would be harder to use them. As for overdamage, I'd say that the overdamage is the difference between the car crashing and not working anymore, and complete destructions.

[Ranger]

Thanks for the reply, Fulcra. What you said makes sense. I'll go with that.

Any idea about RL wound modifiers for the Matrix?

[Fortune]

Wound Modifiers affect pretty much everything your character does, and every test your character makes, except Damage Resistance tests of all kinds.

[Ranger]

Alrighty; thank you, Fortune.

[mfb]

trying to figure out how rl wound modifiers would work for Matrix personas is an exercise in futility (and frustration and banging your face on the keyboard), since Matrix personas are an idea that is chock-full of rabid crazy.

regardless, the Matrix rules state that personas have a condition monitor, but doesn't state specifically that it works the same as physical/stun condition monitors. it does give an example of a Matrix entity taking damage and, as a result, facing wound modifiers that correspond with the modifiers that the physical/stun tracks impose, so one can reasonably assume that Matrix condition monitors impose the same wound modifiers as are described in the combat section. vehicles are much easier to rule on. vehicle damage is described in the combat chapter, ergo the vehicle damage track works just like the physical/stun tracks.

going back to the Matrix condition monitor--there really does need to be some clarification on what it affects. i mean, think about this--you subscribe both your smartgun and your smartlink contacts (or, god forbit, your cybereyes) to your persona. a hacker attacks your persona in cybercombat and inflicts damage. does shooting your smartgun now take wound modifiers from your Matrix condition monitor? you could say no, because shooting your smartgun is a physical action--but some of the information you're using to aim your gun is coming from your persona. your smartlink targeting reticle is full of static and blinking in and out of existence; not only is it not providing good targeting information, it's distracting you and blocking your view.

or, at least, that's one way you could look at it.

[Nightwalker450]

I think anything thats not actually a matrix test would be unaffected by this. But if your commlink crashed then you would loose everything thats run through it. Cybereyes would still be functional, though changing modes would be up to GM discretion, they might be locked into whatever mode they were in last until your commlink boots up. Smartgun system if run through your commlink for the extra firewall protection could be lost, but if its skinlinked directly to your cybereyes then it would still function.

All of this is usually just really important fluff as to how your system is wired. Once your commlink crashes though it could potentially tear your system apart.

[Drogos]

going back to the Matrix condition monitor--there really does need to be some clarification on what it affects. i mean, think about this--you subscribe both your smartgun and your smartlink contacts (or, god forbit, your cybereyes) to your persona. a hacker attacks your persona in cybercombat and inflicts damage. does shooting your smartgun now take wound modifiers from your Matrix condition monitor? you could say no, because shooting your smartgun is a physical action--but some of the information you're using to aim your gun is coming from your persona. your smartlink targeting reticle is full of static and blinking in and out of existence; not only is it not providing good targeting information, it's distracting you and blocking your view.

or, at least, that's one way you could look at it.

I feel most of these issues are covered adequately in the AR modifiers (+/-4) given in example on pg 208 in the little box in the left. If they hack mess with your Smartlink, I rule it provides a negative modifier equal to what it would normally provide. Now if they take control of it (which is a threshhold test equal to your firewall IIRC), they can do wierd tricky things like shoot it or spoof the output of your camera to make it look like friends are enemies (a shite ton of hacking, which makes just shooting you in the face SOOOO much easier). Those are just options though (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Ranger]

Nice. More things to confuse the newbie GM (me). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Speaking of crashing your persona, how do you restart it? To reboot a persona, you must make an Extended System + Response Test (10, 1 Combat Turn). But, to make this test, you need to be logged in to the Matrix. ??? Or, is there a hard reset option that the book assumes but doesn't mention?

[Drogos]

Speaking of crashing your persona, how do you restart it? To reboot a persona, you must make an Extended System + Response Test (10, 1 Combat Turn). But, to make this test, you need to be logged in to the Matrix. ??? Or, is there a hard reset option that the book assumes but doesn't mention?

I don't recall it being required you be on the Matrix for this text. I thought it was just like having to reformat a hardrive or something akin to that process. I could be wrong though (IMG:style_emoticons/default/read.gif)

[Ranger]

I was assuming you had to be logged in since it's a Matrix action. Maybe you don't have to be. I don't know! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[mfb]

I feel most of these issues are covered adequately in the AR modifiers (+/-4) given in example on pg 208 in the little box in the left. If they hack mess with your Smartlink, I rule it provides a negative modifier equal to what it would normally provide. Now if they take control of it (which is a threshhold test equal to your firewall IIRC), they can do wierd tricky things like shoot it or spoof the output of your camera to make it look like friends are enemies (a shite ton of hacking, which makes just shooting you in the face SOOOO much easier). Those are just options though

well, the thing is, they're not messing with your smartlink, they're damaging your persona--one effect of which may be that your smartlink doesn't function properly. basically, the question is what actions the wound modifiers for your Matrix condition monitor apply to: only actions taken completely in the Matrix (which pretty much means just hacking), or any action where your persona is a factor--such as shooting with a smartgun subscribed to your commlink?

[Nightwalker450]

Nice. More things to confuse the newbie GM (me). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Speaking of crashing your persona, how do you restart it? To reboot a persona, you must make an Extended System + Response Test (10, 1 Combat Turn). But, to make this test, you need to be logged in to the Matrix. ??? Or, is there a hard reset option that the book assumes but doesn't mention?

You don't have to be logged on, its basically reset your computer, and run error checking.

[Ranger]

You don't have to be logged on, its basically reset your computer, and run error checking.

Thanks, Nightwalker.

[Fortune]

basically, the question is what actions the wound modifiers for your Matrix condition monitor apply to: only actions taken completely in the Matrix (which pretty much means just hacking)

Yes.

... or any action where your persona is a factor--such as shooting with a smartgun subscribed to your commlink?

No. Your persona isn't actually a factor in this. It just happens to be subscribed to your commlink. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Ranger]

I think I found the answer to my own question about RL wound modifiers affecting Matrix actions.

"Since a technomancer’s Living Persona is generated by his brain, technomancers do not have a separate Matrix Condition Monitor—they use their own Stun and Physical Condition Monitors. This means that any damage a technomancer takes in the real world will impede his Matrix abilities, and vice versa" (SR4, 233).

This quote implies that a non-technomancer accessing the Matrix does not affect Matrix actions. At least, that's how I read it.

[Fortune]

The important part is the 'vice versa' bit, which is the part that does not apply to non-technomancers. Wound Modifiers affect everything a character does, except resisting other wounds (of any form). But damage to the Matrix Condition Monitor doesn't normally affect non-Matrix tests, with the specific exception being with Technomancers.

[Jhaiisiin]

Cybereyes would still be functional, though changing modes would be up to GM discretion, they might be locked into whatever mode they were in last until your commlink boots up.

Bwah?! What kind of fool runs his cybereyes without a DNI? That's the part of SR4 I just can't understand. SR3, DNI across the board. SR4, suddenly everyone thinks that running the entirety of their 'ware package through an easily compromized radio wave is a good idea. WTF? Honestly, I don't have a single character with 'ware in SR4 that runs that ware through their comlink. The comlink for most of my charactes is an over-glorified pocket secretary from SR3 days, and that's it. Cyberarm? DNI. Cybereyes? DNI. Cyber-any-frickin-thing? DNI unless I just don't have the option. My skillwires still run off the chipjack/datajack input mode. Scrag this wireless crap. No 2-bit hacker is gonna take over my character's ware and use it against him. I don't even consider ranges when thinking of that, either. I don't care that they have to be within a couple of meters of me. If it's broadcasting, they can hack it, if they can hack it, it better not be linked to something important.


Back on topic: Vehicles suffering mods seems pretty straightforward. Matrix personas I think won't affect real life unless you do actually have something going through your comlink. If your comlink is scragged, so are the things relying on it. That said, if your comlink doesn't crash, and you sever your connection to the matrix, persona damage *shouldn't* affect your meatbod stuff, because you disconnected that damaged persona from the equation. I just can't imagine your virtual you screwing up anything RL, short of getting hit by black ic and damaged on your RL stun or physical tracks.

[Ranger]

Back on topic: Vehicles suffering mods seems pretty straightforward. Matrix personas I think won't affect real life unless you do actually have something going through your comlink. If your comlink is scragged, so are the things relying on it. That said, if your comlink doesn't crash, and you sever your connection to the matrix, persona damage *shouldn't* affect your meatbod stuff, because you disconnected that damaged persona from the equation. I just can't imagine your virtual you screwing up anything RL, short of getting hit by black ic and damaged on your RL stun or physical tracks.

Thanks for the reply. However, I was asking about it from the other way around. That is, if damage to your real body affects Matrix actions. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Jhaiisiin]

Well... With the ASIST technology and such described in the original SR books, if I remember rightly, it includes a module that basically shuts down your body when your jacked in. I don't see any reason you couldn't filter out stimulous from the outside (such as a bullet wound) so that it doesn't affect your matrix persona. The only exceptions I could think up would be stun damage, electrical damage and such. Basically any wound that would directly affect the brain's ability to process information. (Bullet to the brainpan, squish, would definitely count. hehe) It becomes very GM discretion, but it's a discretion that any GM can and should use.

That's my take on it. Sorry for misunderstanding the original topic.

[Ranger]

Well... With the ASIST technology and such described in the original SR books, if I remember rightly, it includes a module that basically shuts down your body when your jacked in. I don't see any reason you couldn't filter out stimulous from the outside (such as a bullet wound) so that it doesn't affect your matrix persona. The only exceptions I could think up would be stun damage, electrical damage and such. Basically any wound that would directly affect the brain's ability to process information. (Bullet to the brainpan, squish, would definitely count. hehe) It becomes very GM discretion, but it's a discretion that any GM can and should use.

That's my take on it. Sorry for misunderstanding the original topic.

Makes sense; thanks for your input, and no need to apologize. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I'm the GM, so I guess that means it's my discretion. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I was just hoping it was in the book somewhere and I simply missed it.

[Jhaiisiin]

I'm at work (seems I say that a lot here), but I *believe* that the books say wound modifiers apply to everything you do. I guess the idea of you being shot would affect the brain, which would affect your matrix actions. It's a little to broad-sweeping for me, so I'd houserule it under the guidelines I mentioned. Strict RAW though I'd have to look up when I get home, or hopefully someone else can post exactly what the book says (if it says anything at all on that regard)

[Ranger]

I'm at work (seems I say that a lot here), but I *believe* that the books say wound modifiers apply to everything you do. I guess the idea of you being shot would affect the brain, which would affect your matrix actions. It's a little to broad-sweeping for me, so I'd houserule it under the guidelines I mentioned. Strict RAW though I'd have to look up when I get home, or hopefully someone else can post exactly what the book says (if it says anything at all on that regard)

What you said about broad sweeping is exactly my thought. There are a few instances of broad sweeping rules that just don't make any sense if you apply them literally. The wound modifier is one, which is why I questioned it. But, there's that quote I posted above about technomancers being affected by real body damage in the Matrix that leads me to believe that hackers using commlinks are not affected by real body damage in the matrix. Else, there'd be no need explicitly to state that technomancers are affected by real body damage. At least, that's what I feel.

Just for conversational purposes, another example where I don't feel that wound modifiers should apply is healing tests. Is it realistic to apply them? I don't know; I'm not an expert on real life wounds and healing. But, from a game perspective, applying wound modifiers here would double-penalize a character who is injured badly. First, you're hurt badly, meaning you can die easily already. Second, you'd have a harder time healing than someone who is only slightly hurt, so you'd stay easily-killable longer. Still, by the RAW, the wound modifier does apply here because the only exceptions it states are resistance tests.

[Jhaiisiin]

In a way, wound penalties for healing/damage resistance makes sense. As the body gets more and more damaged, it starts breaking down and losing it's ability to self-repair or resist further damage. Fragile system, the body.

[Ranger]

In a way, wound penalties for healing/damage resistance makes sense. As the body gets more and more damaged, it starts breaking down and losing it's ability to self-repair or resist further damage. Fragile system, the body.

Sounds reasonable, but again, from a gameplay perspective, that's not fun. You already have a lot more damage to heal, meaning you'll take longer to heal as it is. If you then throw the wound modifier on top of that, you're really screwed. This is one of those instances where I'd favor gameplay over realism. Even though I'm the GM, I can totally understand the player's perspective, and I don't think effectively taking a double penalty to heal when you're badly hurt is fun at all. I remember reading somewhere that the healing rules allow you to heal naturally very quickly for gameplay purposes, since it's otherwise not fun to have to sit around for weeks or months to heal a single gunshot wound. I agree with that sentiment completely.