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> Influence Spell, so many questions
b1ffov3rfl0w
post Mar 14 2008, 12:12 AM
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So, the target of an Influence spell gets a chance to resist when "confronted with the wrongness" of the command (or suggestion). A few questions:

1. Does the "resistance roll every (Force) turns" not apply then? I would guess not, as that would make Influence just an extremely sucky version of Control Thoughts. But it is a Mental Manipulation ...

2. If the answer to (1) is "no", could you use it for some condition in the future? Like "let Merv Dyer into the facility at midnight"? Or "at midnight next Friday"? "At midnight on June 20, 2075"?

3. Does the confrontation with the wrongness of the suggestion have to be external? Like in the above example, would someone else have to say "Are you mental or something? We're not supposed to just let people in; we're security guards!" or would his security guard training be enough to give him a roll?

4. How about Influencing someone to commit some kind of act they'd be quite likely to do anyway -- like having the thug harass that guy instead of me, or getting a guard or official to accept a bribe, or convincing a greedy mark to buy the bag of dodgy forged credsticks (which he has been led to believe are illegally obtained but legit). Just the spellcasting resistance, or the "extra" resistance roll? (Basically, something you could set up with Con and a corruptible target)

5. Or, Influencing someone into some action that isn't wrong at all -- convincing your sister to enroll her kid in the expensive school so he doesn't join that street gang, or getting the Lone Star detective to pursue the investigation even after some shadowy Johnson has pulled the strings?(Basically, something you could set up with Negotiation and a "good" target)
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MadPiper
post Mar 14 2008, 01:30 AM
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As far as I understand, influence is the only mind manipulation spell that does'nt have a limit on time. So NO on the first question, as for the rest. Think Jedi Mind trick. Except I do not think you have to actually speak to have it work, but can if you want.

Influencing a guard to open a door at a specific time at another day, well thats more like mind control back in 3rd edition when it had no time limit. So I would say NO to number 2. Number 3, If you were a security guard, and all of a sudden you got the bright idea to open the doors wide open and turn your back.... would'nt you think twice?

4 and 5, just use common sense. Influence is handy, but not the be all, end all. Even though its the only handy mind minupaltion spell outside of combat.

Course, if I am wrong on any of this, someone will be along to correct me. GL
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Elve
post Mar 14 2008, 02:05 AM
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I'd say both apply, the timed one and the wrongness one...
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Jaid
post Mar 14 2008, 02:49 AM
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1) technically yes, but the general consensus is that it isn't supposed to, and i would be absolutely shocked if anyone had it work that way.

2) well, provided the guard knows who that is, yes you could make that influence happen. note that it's entirely probably the guard will walk through a ward at some point (probably on the way into work, specifically to check for unauthorised sustained spells on him) so this is not necessarily quite as 100% awesome as it sounds (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

3) it has to be external. it is, after all, mind control.

4) those are some excellent uses of influence. not because the target is any less likely to resist, but because if it makes sense then who's gonna argue it anyways? doing it that way makes it much less likely to fail due to later resistance tests. i mean, some people might protest getting beat up, but imo they'd have to argue that it's not something the guy would normally do (and the guy would have to be someone who would not normally do)

5) basically same answer as 4.
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b1ffov3rfl0w
post Mar 14 2008, 03:32 AM
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QUOTE (Jaid @ Mar 13 2008, 10:49 PM) *
2) well, provided the guard knows who that is, yes you could make that influence happen. note that it's entirely probably the guard will walk through a ward at some point (probably on the way into work, specifically to check for unauthorised sustained spells on him) so this is not necessarily quite as 100% awesome as it sounds (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)


Oh yeah, that certainly makes sense. I'm assuming the fact that it's a Permanent spell and not a Sustained one wouldn't help. The ward defense is a great point that I had missed.

QUOTE
3) it has to be external. it is, after all, mind control.


Well sure, but I know that I've resisted ideas that I've had. Or reconsidered, dismissed, deferred, recognized as unfeasable, etc. I wouldn't want it to be too easy to say "next time you're at the monorail station, throw yourself on the track" -- someone should, to be fair, get two resistance rolls for that sort of thing.

EDIT: a monorail has a TRACK, not tracks.
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Herald of Verjig...
post Mar 14 2008, 04:01 AM
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Unless it's been changed, Heal and Treat are permanent spells, and you don't have to worry about wounds re-opening when you pass through a ward once the spell has set. If you did, then most shadowrunners would die immediately upon crossing a sufficiently high force ward just from all the previously cast curative magics being undone.

With that in mind, Influence is best used as small changes to behavioral trends rather than as a variant of the Control Thoughts spell. Look up examples of post-hypnotic suggestion for some help at what it might do.

So, wards shouldn't be a problem once the initial sustaining is over. I'd suggest "step outside for a cigarette at midnight" over "open the door for someone specific at midnight" or if you want it to be fairly specific, try to manipulate a sense of trust in the person so he can get some modifiers in his favor when using a lame bluff to get in after hours with no ID.
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b1ffov3rfl0w
post Mar 14 2008, 06:42 AM
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Wow, that's interesting stuff (the wikipedia articles on hypnotic suggestion and hypnosis that I just looked at). Thanks for the suggestion.
Also I like the idea of giving some bonuses, much like Control Emotions/Thoughts on a social test.
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Fuchs
post Mar 14 2008, 10:23 AM
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Ever thought of corps/mob/other groups using this on employees, to make them more loyal?

"GM, that's the third guard that died rather than open a door, what's this, Kamikaze Korp?" "Yes."

I am sure Hyz has some even nastier uses for the spell.
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Nefacio
post Mar 14 2008, 03:22 PM
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I have a few question about it too. The spirit power "Influence" works exactly as the spell, with the big difference that dont apply counterspelling to resist. Anyone else thinks this is wrong, cause complete overpower?
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Nightwalker450
post Mar 14 2008, 04:05 PM
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QUOTE (MadPiper @ Mar 13 2008, 08:30 PM) *
As far as I understand, influence is the only mind manipulation spell that does'nt have a limit on time. So NO on the first question, as for the rest. Think Jedi Mind trick. Except I do not think you have to actually speak to have it work, but can if you want.


The key to the Jedi Mind Trick is they must also speak it back to you afterwards.

"You should step out for a cigarette at midnight"
"I will step out for a cigarette at midnight"
...
"Stop repeating me"
"I'll stop repeating you"
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DTFarstar
post Mar 14 2008, 04:52 PM
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The way I run with influence spells is that since it is a permanent spell, they get one resistance spell when it is cast, and one more right when it becomes permanent(Force Rounds later). Once permanent they can get resistance tests anytime someone questions them on it, but wards don't effect it and it lasts well... forever. That is what permanent means. So, it basically just has two(maybe more depending on how clever you are with the spell as someone might call attention to what they are trying to do or try and stop them) resistance tests instead of one, but it is freaking permanent. Like heal, the residue of the spell disspates after the change has been made too, so if you catch Joe Blow Security at his favorite bar and influence him into taking a cig break/piss break/nap whatever every night at 1AM then once it is permanent it is part of his new daily routine if he fails both resistance tests. Though in that case, he would likely get at least one more as someone he works with on a regular basis calls attention to this small but persistant change in routine. "You know Joe, you have become damned predictable! For the last week you have gone to take a leak at exactly 1AM every night." Resistance test for Joe, but if he fails they, no one will likely question it again and it will be a habit he has for years or even the rest of his life. Which might not be years seeing as shadowrunners are apparently breaking into his facility, but still.

Chris
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