What happened to blind? Options

[MadPiper]

Yea... what happened to blind? Is it gone forever? or in a book I have not read?

[Ancient History]

All blind people were issue ultrasound glasses. Stylin'!

No, seriously, it'll probably be in an upcoming book.

[TonkaTuff]

'Course, if you're referring to the spell, it was just renamed 'Sight Removal'. It's in Street Magic.

[MadPiper]

No I just meant the disadvantage. So you think it will come back eh? What do you think the conversion would be. Also... there was one thing I never understood about blind, In 3rd, if you can see stuff normally, except kinda lackluster with astral perception... but cannot read, how do people who are blind learn spells or create them? I mean, they get the intent, but they dont know how to write, or know exactly what their drawing right? I never got that.

[b1ffov3rfl0w]

The disadvantage is now Reduced Sense (Sight); not really sure what it would cost, though. As for learning spells, I think reading it off a screen or out of a book is like reading a description of a painting, while astrally perceiving the spell itself is like actually seeing it.

[MadPiper]

But would you be able to make the spells if your blind?

[nathanross]

But would you be able to make the spells if your blind?

Blindness does not prevent a magician from casting any spell. Since you are dual natured for the duration of Astral Perception, you exist on both the Physical and Astral plane, meaning you can cast both Physical and Mana spells. Normally, to cast Physical spells while Astrally perceiving, you must take a -2DP modifier, however, blind people and forced dual natured beings (ghouls and awakened critters) do not suffer this modifier since it is the norm for them.

Thus, the only thing I really see as an issue is reading and distinguishing text. Though now that I think about it, why couldn't you use Clairvoyance to read and see on the Physical? Is there some rule against this?

EDIT - As for learning spells, Spell formulae have a physical and an astral component, so even if you are looking at it only from Astral space, you can still learn the spell.

[Malicant]

Trid camera and trodenet. The poor man's cybereyes.

Blindness might not be always treatable, but there are ways to deal with it.

[b1ffov3rfl0w]

Damage of some sort to the "visual cortex" might be more of a problem. But that's the sort of thing that really requires thinking of the world in a completely different way.

[Particle_Beam]

Normally, to cast Physical spells while Astrally perceiving, you must take a -2DP modifier, however, blind people and forced dual natured beings (ghouls and awakened critters) do not suffer this modifier since it is the norm for them.

Huh? I thought that if you cast any spell while astrally perceiving, you don't get a -2 dice pool modifier, only for any action not related to magic.

[nathanross]

Huh? I thought that if you cast any spell while astrally perceiving, you don't get a -2 dice pool modifier, only for any action not related to magic.

Oh Scheisse, you're right! Next up, Blind Mystic Adept specializing in Assensing!

[MadPiper]

I wonder what this would look like as a negative quality in forth? 10bp? 5 if your a magic user?

[Particle_Beam]

0 Points, because people can easily heal it with cyberware (read: eyes and Augmented Reality), or just clone new eyes that aren't damaged, and have been fixed already.

This is a dystopian future cyberpunk game. People don't get points for playing one-armed loosers either, as they can either get a cyberarm, or clone a new flesh-arm.

[b1ffov3rfl0w]

0 Points, because people can easily heal it with cyberware (read: eyes and Augmented Reality), or just clone new eyes that aren't damaged, and have been fixed already.

This is a dystopian future cyberpunk game. People don't get points for playing one-armed loosers either, as they can either get a cyberarm, or clone a new flesh-arm.

That's true but, you could also "easily" replace your weak immune system with some kind of symbiotes, or get a treatment to make you not be a junkie or boozehound (like Case with his artificially-induced inability to experience drugs), and you could "easily" stop being such a couch potato and go work out, but you still get points for Weak Immune System, Addictions, and Infirm.

Presumably if you're playing a character, and your character is blind, he has some problem that prevents him from simply getting new eyes or cyberware. And the GM can be a little looser with the rules without being a loser.

[Jhaiisiin]

In previous versions, Blindness couldn't be countered with cyberware, because the optic nerves or the centers of the brain that controlled sight were fragged, so there was no way to buy off the flaw.

One armed would only be an issue if the person also had bio-rejection and a problem that even cloned arms didn't work... (esp if he was born with one arm, as his DNA wouldn't have the schematics for the 2nd arm, thus cloning wouldn't quite work... though I'm sure science could make the appropriate corrections... course then the dna is different, leading to possible rejection.... I think you see the issue)

[nathanross]

Here's my Version of Blindness

+30 (+10 Awakened)
The character is blind from birth and cannot make perception tests relying solely on physical vision (Regular vision, low-light, thermographic or any variation thereof). Perception test not relying on vision receive a -4DP modifier, and Audio or Textual (right word?) Perception tests receive a +2DP modifier. This cannot be corrected with cyberware. Awakened characters can still see through Astral Perception, and they do not suffer normal penalties from interacting with the physical world. However, due to the limitations of Astral sight, they cannot read (requiring brail or astral ink) and suffer normal modifiers for perceiving details on the Physical plane. It is up to individual GM's whether this affects Rigging/Hacking, and because this is a result of drain damage, not damage to the optic nerve, etc. (which would be curable with cyberware), it should apply to actions within VR.

EDIT - Changed wording and costs, added -4/+2 Perception rule.

[Jhaiisiin]

I'd modify that first line to say "The character is blind from birth and cannot make perception tests relying on physical vision (Regular vision, low-light, thermographic or any variation thereof)." If you're blind, you're not able to barely see, just it's real hard. You can't see drek, so no test for you.

[Malicant]

The points gained for awakened characters is way to low. Not beeing able to percieve the physical world still sucks even if you can see the astral. No reading/writing, no computers/AR (very serious disadvantage), no cutting the blue wire... and so on. You can't even make a phonecall without help. And worst of all, you won't be able to watch Sukie Redflower kick corporate butt. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

30/20, or 30/15 should be more reasonable. Maybe even 20/10. You can always go datajack/trodenet and use cameras as eyes. And no, this would not negate beeing blind completly. It is still equipment that can be taken, destroyed or disrupted, it will have an odd field of view and angle and other stuff that still warrants mean penalties to the character.

[Jaid]

That's true but, you could also "easily" replace your weak immune system with some kind of symbiotes, or get a treatment to make you not be a junkie or boozehound (like Case with his artificially-induced inability to experience drugs), and you could "easily" stop being such a couch potato and go work out, but you still get points for Weak Immune System, Addictions, and Infirm.

someone without a weak immune system would be better off with symbiotes than the person with a weak immune system who has symbiotes, someone with an addiction who cannot satisfy their addiction has not had their problem solved, and someone who is infirm is going to die horribly no matter what they do, and cyberware can't even begin to come close to fixing the problems with it. (no, seriously, read it sometime, and then look up the section marked 'physical skills'. you can't run, you can't jump, you can't climb, you can't swim, you can't perceive, you can't sneak, you can't disguise yourself, you can't hide stuff... it's a flaw that isn't useful for anybody. it should either be revised to be playable, or should never have made it into the core book.

someone who is blind but gets it replaced by cybereyes is entirely likely to be getting cool stuff as a result of it that would have overwritten their natural eyes anyways.

[nathanross]

30/20, or 30/15 should be more reasonable. Maybe even 20/10. You can always go datajack/trodenet and use cameras as eyes. And no, this would not negate beeing blind completly. It is still equipment that can be taken, destroyed or disrupted, it will have an odd field of view and angle and other stuff that still warrants mean penalties to the character.

I upped the Awakened bonus to +10 (which is what I originally had, but since they no longer receive a DP modifier to interact with physical space, I thought +5 was more appropriate. Also perhaps I should make it in steps: +20 for blind in reality but not in VR. To be honest, now that I have it out there, I just assume GM's will do with it what they want.

[MadPiper]

Wow, yea, you guys really hit that on the head. I will use those rules if you dont mind, you guys went far more in depth then I ever could. I have very limited SR experience hehe. Thank you.

[nathanross]

The problem really is normal perception tests. Sure a blind person may not be able to see, but they can no things and people are there. They also have a much better sense of depth than we do. Since we can see, we take for granted what is around us. I hope -4 on normal things is fine. Also, I think something needs to be done to make Blind Fighting adept power a bit better. Instead of saying Blind fire is -4 instead of -6, I'd say blind fire for Blind people is -1/meter (or something like that) and the adept power reduces blind fire modifier by 2. Needs work I know, and in general the system is geared towards the sighted, but I think playing a blind character could totally rule. I also like the idea of a hacker/rigger that can only see through his drones and in the matrix.

Interesting character ideas, anyways.

[Malicant]

but since they no longer receive a DP modifier to interact with physical space

Actually they do. While astrally percieving they get a -2 modifier on anything not involving in magic. In all respects an astrally percieving mage is blind on the physical plane.

[nathanross]

Actually they do. While astrally percieving they get a -2 modifier on anything not involving in magic. In all respects an astrally percieving mage is blind on the physical plane.

No, the -2 for non-magical actions while Astrally perceiving does not count towards Dual-natured beings (Ghouls, Critters, Dragons, Spirits, etc.) and Blind Mages (since they are in effect, Dual-Natured). Unless of course you apply -2 to a Materialized spirit for interacting with the Physical plane since they are still dual-natured and a always Astrally Perceiving.

[Pyritefoolsgold]

I basically just wrote it as a 20 point flaw when I decided to write up Woo-Zi in SR4.