called shots, running a headshot campaign Options

[djinni]

so everyone wants to do headshots.
-4/+4, armored jacket, Thermal Smoke, Flashpacks, its only a -15DP modifier
they've been doing it with a wide burst on medium choke, twice per IP. -4/-5 for dodging and no armor kinda sucks.

so is there anything wrong with headshots every shot?

[fatal2ty]

nothing I can think of, might wanna start fitting your NPCs with face armor though

[Kyoto Kid]

...your PCs must have some hellacious DPs to be able to hit with a -15 DP modifier.

[Fix-it]

Can your players dance all day?

[kzt]

I'd not allow that. If you are spraying bullets you are not taking an aimed shot. I'd not allow the bonus for autofire (the to hit modifiers - damage is ok) to modify the roll. I'd probably just laugh and refuse that.

Also, can they SEE the head? Have them make the roll. 3 successes at -6 (distracted + thermal smoke) seems to be the roll needed.

Calling a shot means that the
character is aiming at a vulnerable portion of a target, such as a person’s head, the tires or windows of a vehicle, and so on. The gamemaster decides if such a vulnerable spot is accessible.

Wide Bursts
Wide bursts are intended to spray bullets around to have a better chance of hitting the target.

[Eyeless Blond]

Also you'd have to deal with hit locations. If you were wearing a helmet with +1/+2 for example (and nothing else that can be interpreted as covering the face) I'd multiply that by six and have the face "location" be +6/+12. Same for body, left/right arm, left/right leg.

[Larme]

If someone can hit with -15 DP, more power to them. An expert marksman without enhancements has 12 dice; if someone can boost their dicepool up to where they can consistently hit with a -15 penalty, that means they're approaching double the skill of the best human marksman of today. They should be able to pull of nearly impossible shots...

Also, there shouldn't be an issue with firing a wide burst at someone's head. It's just a matter of sweeping the weapon across them at head level, covering a larger area but still targetting the head. A wide burst isn't shooting randomly, it isn't suppressive fire, it's just covering more area to increase the odds of hitting what you aim at.

Regardless, all your guards really need is helmets. I think Eyeless Blond's proposed house rule is totally unecessary because your PCs are using shot rounds (and I'm not sure why you would pick six as an arbitrary multiplier, except that you want to immediately and totally nerf head shots). There is a problem in the rules since flechette was eratta'd to be +2/+5, but they didn't fix the shotgun rules. But because shotgun use the normal rules for flechette rounds, that should change the rules for shotguns. Since each level of choke decreases DV by 2 and raises AP by 2, it's reasonable, in light of the errata, to conclude that medium choke has DV5/+7 AP. Thus, if the guards have helmets that only provide +2 ballistic armor, medium choke will give them +7 for 9 ballistic armor. Combine that with a body of 4, and the guards are going to take stun damage from the headshots and soak DV4, meaning that the headshots will only hurt a little.

Of course, if you're one of those folks who have adopted the "flechette cannot give more bonus to AP than the target's armor rating" house rule, then that won't work. Thanks to adopting a house rule, you will need another house rule to balance the first house rule, and the viscious cycle of house rules continues (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Also, why aren't those silly guards in cover? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) They deserve head explody.

[kzt]

Also, there shouldn't be an issue with firing a wide burst at someone's head.

If we are going to live by the silly RAW, we get to die by the damn thing. And "spraying" isn't compatible with aiming.

[Cain]

I don't think that slapping any more penalties on top of the -15 is called for. Let's face it, only the best are going to be reliably hitting at that modifier. Besides which, according to the called shot rules, that isn't necessarily a head shot; it's any unarmored vital location.

If you don't want the players making that kind of called shot, just up the armor on the opposition. Adding a helmet and riot shield should do the trick. That'll take things up to -17 to bypass armor; and if they can still hit that, switch to Arsenal and get SWAT armor (12/10) plus helmet (2/2) and ballistic shield (6/4). Before visibility modifiers, that's -20 to bypass the armor. Considering that the very best pistols adept can start with 25 dice, if they're hitting -20 on a regular basis, they deserve to land headshots on every hit.

[Pyritefoolsgold]

I don't think that slapping any more penalties on top of the -15 is called for. Let's face it, only the best are going to be reliably hitting at that modifier. Besides which, according to the called shot rules, that isn't necessarily a head shot; it's any unarmored vital location.

If you don't want the players making that kind of called shot, just up the armor on the opposition. Adding a helmet and riot shield should do the trick. That'll take things up to -17 to bypass armor; and if they can still hit that, switch to Arsenal and get SWAT armor (12/10) plus helmet (2/2) and ballistic shield (6/4). Before visibility modifiers, that's -20 to bypass the armor. Considering that the very best pistols adept can start with 25 dice, if they're hitting -20 on a regular basis, they deserve to land headshots on every hit.

Perhaps I'm mistaken, but wouldn't you need 10 body to not be encumbered by 20 ballistic armor? or do the shield and helmet not count toward that total?

[Larme]

If we are going to live by the silly RAW, we get to die by the damn thing. And "spraying" isn't compatible with aiming.

RAW stands for "rules as written." Is "spray" a rule? It is not. It is a piece of fluff to explain the context for the rules. The rules are that wide burst gives -2 to dodge. The rules also say that you can make a called shot with a burst fire weapon. They don't say that wide vs. narrow bursts make any difference.

But as long as we're looking at this from a realism point of view, why couldn't you spray bullets at someone's face? You're using the word "spray" to imply almost random shooting. But look at the full piece of fluff you're using: "Wide bursts are intended to spray bullets around to have a better chance of hitting the target." You're spraying round to hit a specific target. If your target is someone's head, you're spraying rounds around their head area so that if their head moves, you'll be more likely to hit it. The specific purpose of the spraying is to hit a target more easily. This applies whether your target it a person, a person's face, or a coin you've thrown up in the air.

But to be clear: "spray" is not RAW. It's FAW; "fluff as written." It does not carry the power to x-out actual, concrete rules.

[b1ffov3rfl0w]

Wide burst called shot to the head? How big are these heads? Are they fighting sperm whales?

[KurenaiYami]

They're firing a three-shot burst in an arc in the hopes that one would hit. That's why it does the same damage as if the weapon were shot in single shot mode.

I don't see how doing a wide sweep aiming for the head instead of the center of mass is so unrealistic. You just aim the arc up slightly.

[Critias]

And don't forget, what's good for the goose is good for the shadowrunner.

I know full well in my games if I'm making headshots left and right, it's only a matter of time before the GM starts having the baddies do the same back at me. Your characters are skillfull enough to be making -15 shots without breaking a sweat, so be it; throw opposition at them that can do the same, and see how they like getting shot in the face once or twice.

[jago668]

And don't forget, what's good for the goose is good for the shadowrunner.

I know full well in my games if I'm making headshots left and right, it's only a matter of time before the GM starts having the baddies do the same back at me. Your characters are skillfull enough to be making -15 shots without breaking a sweat, so be it; throw opposition at them that can do the same, and see how they like getting shot in the face once or twice.

We had the exact same thoughts when it came to dikoting our apds rounds in SR2. We asked the GM if it was possible, and were told "Sure, but if you do it so can other people." So suddenly the technology just didn't support it.

[Synner667]

Personally, I'd go with the autofire burst is not compatible with an aimed shot.

1st off, they need to take aim [simple action], and then make a called shot [free action]..
..Which would imply not just firing a swathe of bullets at a target, with the intention of hitting with a called shot.

Also, since a complex action is needed to fire a burst, that would limit what a character can do in a IP.


As a GM, one of the most fun things to do is let characters build their Street Samurai of Perfection, then copy the sheets and use that version against the character (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Fortune]

Also, since a complex action is needed to fire a burst ...

It's a Simple Action to fire a short burst. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

It's allowable according to canon, but not in my games.

[Synner667]

It's a Simple Action to fire a short burst. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

It's allowable according to canon, but not in my games.

Yes, you're right..
..Simple Action = Burst-Fire Mode, 2 per action phase
..Complex Action = Full Auto Mode, 1 per action phase


I guess maybe we're arguing discussing what aiming means [since you have to aim to get the benefit of making a called shot]

[Critias]

For those of you insisting a called shot/burst isn't possible, is it solely because of game balance reasons, or because you feel it's implausible or unrealistic?

Because spending enough time playing any first person shooter should show you it's not only possible to make a head shot with a burst-type attack, but in fact significantly easier than with a slower firing weapon.

[Ryu]

so everyone wants to do headshots.
-4/+4, armored jacket, Thermal Smoke, Flashpacks, its only a -15DP modifier
they've been doing it with a wide burst on medium choke, twice per IP. -4/-5 for dodging and no armor kinda sucks.

so is there anything wrong with headshots every shot?

There is something wrong with -4/+4 on top of "bypassing armor". Select one.

And disallow called shots for shotguns firing shot, at least for wide bursts. Thats such a large affected area, everything of a metahuman target is in the fire zone. I COULD see it for narrow bursts.

[Blade]

Calling a shot is a free action. In SR4, you don't have unlimited free actions anymore.
I don't remember the exact problem, but I do remember that you have to be careful with how you use your free actions.

[Drogos]

Did you factor in the double recoil penalty for uncompensated auto shotguns? Just curious...cause I forget that rule sometimes. Of course, if they are using a gyromount, it matters like not at all.

[KurenaiYami]

There is something wrong with -4/+4 on top of "bypassing armor". Select one.

This actually got me thinking. I've had the gun bunny in my campaign ask to do a headshot, and as it was an unarmored area as well as really vulnerable, I used both penalties: -4 for unarmored area, then -4 for the +4 damage, thereby taking a -8 to the shot. This halved his dice pool, but he still made it.

Would you other GMs allow one called shot for both unarmored and more damage? Just curious.

[Drogos]

This actually got me thinking. I've had the gun bunny in my campaign ask to do a headshot, and as it was an unarmored area as well as really vulnerable, I used both penalties: -4 for unarmored area, then -4 for the +4 damage, thereby taking a -8 to the shot. This halved his dice pool, but he still made it.

Would you other GMs allow one called shot for both unarmored and more damage? Just curious.

I'll reread the rules when I get a chance, but I thought the RAW stated you could only do one or the other. I probably would allow both, but the penalty iirc is the appropriate armor rating being bypassed. ie It's harder to hit someone in an armord jacket than a chameleon suit somewhere that's unarmored.

[Ryu]

This actually got me thinking. I've had the gun bunny in my campaign ask to do a headshot, and as it was an unarmored area as well as really vulnerable, I used both penalties: -4 for unarmored area, then -4 for the +4 damage, thereby taking a -8 to the shot. This halved his dice pool, but he still made it.

Would you other GMs allow one called shot for both unarmored and more damage? Just curious.

There is no mechanic for a headshot at -4. Headshots done in that way bypass armor at a (-rating) DP mod. It is an abstract system. Hitting something vital is represented by getting many net hits. I would run it by the book, so you only ever get one option.