SR4 Magic cha cha cha cha changes! Options

[swirler]

This is kind of a carry over from the retcon thread. I haven't played/ran SR since second edition so my knowledge is mostly half remembered bits and pieces. I mean the obvious stuff is the total revamp for shamans, including totems and spirits

Someone mentioned the ivy thing doesn't work anymore, what about FAB? My question is why does the ivy not work? according to the quote I posted below only mentions nonliving objects as offering no resistance. It says that astral forms can slow or affect another astral form. Does this mean "active" astral forms? Or all astral forms of living things? The latter is how it reads to me, but I would like some input on this.

Astral forms are unaffected by the physical world; non-living objects that are solid in the physical world
offer no resistance to astral forms and allow a projecting magician to pass freely. Only astral forms can slow or affect another astral form. The earth is solid on the astral plane, just as it is in the physical world; astral forms cannot pass through it. Secure facilities are often built underground to keep out astral intruders. Active weapon foci have a presence in astral space and can harm an astral form (see Foci, p. 190), but the wielder must be present on the astral plane to use the focus in astral combat. Only mana
spells affect astral forms.

Another thing mentioned was grounding. So astral enemies can't attack people through their active foci anymore? Is this specifically state, or just not mentioned as an option?

Using part of the quote above, the weapon foci part, it says "the wielder must be present on the astral plane to use the focus in astral combat" This means projecting or astrally perceiving, correct?

Okay I'm sure I have more but my brain is a little scrambled atm so for now one last question.
Initiation. Is it just a simple thing now? pay your karma and poof you "level up"?

[Prime Mover]

Living auras: Edit: HMMMmmm Living things and magicians have auras, which are Astral forms, "An astral form cannot pass through another astral form"". Quoted from Street Magic. So lining your building with ivy still works as well as "living' fiberboard.

Grounding: Removed in 3rd edition

Weapon Foci: An astral perceiver could use that foci against astral targets he could now see as per info under weapon foci entry.

Initiation: There is some fluff involved in spending that karma, initiation entry in BBB as well as some more info in Street Magic

Edit: Heres one for ya, manifesting casters are effected by mana based magical effects, does this mean combat spells as well. Is'nt manifesting really a reverse of astrally perceiving, can you hit them with weapon foci?

Edit 2: I agree foci wouldnt affect but what about mana based combat spells?

[Nightwalker450]

Edit: Heres one for ya, manifesting casters are effected by mana based magical effects, does this mean combat spells as well. Is'nt manifesting really a reverse of astrally perceiving, can you hit them with weapon foci?

Depends on your definition of reverse. Astral perceiving allows you to view the astral plane, and interact with it. Manifesting allows you to speak/be seen on the material plane. One alters your perceptions, the other alters others ability to perceive you. I prefer weapon foci/mana based spells not able to target a manifested spirit/mage, because I use it as warnings to people, or to send messages and if they were targetable while doing so, spirits wouldn't be as likely to do that (they already dislike materializing)

[swirler]

yeah i kind of always pictured manifesting as being like a hologram (Help me Fastjack, you're my only hope!")

[Prime Mover]

Depends on your definition of reverse. Astral perceiving allows you to view the astral plane, and interact with it. Manifesting allows you to speak/be seen on the material plane. One alters your perceptions, the other alters others ability to perceive you. I prefer weapon foci/mana based spells not able to target a manifested spirit/mage, because I use it as warnings to people, or to send messages and if they were targetable while doing so, spirits wouldn't be as likely to do that (they already dislike materializing)

I'm quoting BBB when I said it was the reverse. Also says manifested forms cannot be affected by physical means but are vulnerable to mana based effects.

[Mr. Unpronouncea...]

By the way, the ivy trick does still work - you just need to use the Awakened Ivy (p. 126, Street Magic) or, to be evil, the Guardian Vines (p. 127) rather than mundane plants.

[Prime Mover]

Edit: I was wrong in my earlier post, only living auras you can't pass through are dual natured,adept,magician,foci and wards/barriers.

[Mr. Unpronouncea...]

No - it has to be an active astral form, not merely an aura.

edit: which you noticed while I typed this

[swirler]

No - it has to be an active astral form, not merely an aura.

do you have a page for this?
I'd like to see it.knowing some of my players I'd like to be able to point to the spot and say "SEE!". well and I have learned to read things like that for myself when someone talks about them.

Edit: I mean I can see why it would make sense that way as i think about it now. If you can't "attack" someone who isn't active then why would they "stop" you. You obviously can't interact with them then.

[Eyeless Blond]

The other problem is it would make projecting completely impossible. The air is full of bits of bacteria and such; imagine if their itty bitty auras kept slicing through the mage's astral form?

[Mr. Unpronouncea...]

Well...this reference in the BBB doesn't make a hell of a lot of sense if you can't pass through a non-astrally active person:

Physical beings may sense when an astral form passes through their aura.

[swirler]

Well...this reference in the BBB doesn't make a hell of a lot of sense if you can't pass through a non-astrally active person:

good catch

[SCARed]

I'm quoting BBB when I said it was the reverse. Also says manifested forms cannot be affected by physical means but are vulnerable to mana based effects.

you might want to check out the errata - that stuff has been removed (for IMHO very good reasons).