SIN, Is it a sin to be without? Options

[nathanross]

Okay, now, this is something that was never really an issue for the group in SR3 (we never had a fake SIN), but seems to be necessary in SR4. Is this really the case?

The fluff has always mentioned that an absurdly large portion of the populace is SINless, but that just means they aren't a citizen and law enforcement can do whatever they want to them if they commit a crime. However, is not having a SIN a crime in itself? What they hell happens to all the poor bastards without one? What will Lone Star really do to you if you are walking through Downtown Seattle (or some A neighborhood) without a SIN? Put you up for the night and warn you? Deport you to the barrens?

[Heath Robinson]

Not having a SIN means you cannot be a tax-paying citizen of the country and therefore you could be charged with illegal immigration and held in a cell or deported to wherever will take you, but I can't see Lone Star or federal police picking you up for not having a SIN unless you enter one of the higher security areas where you must broadcast your SIN. There are entire neighbourhoods filled with the SINless, it would make no sense for them to be living relatively peacefully unless the Star and police were dealing with more significant problems elsewhere and being SINless wasn't prosecuted.

As for deportation, technically sovereign countries claim areas of the barrens as their and therefore it would be unlikely that they could deport you to the barrens. However, the main point is that since you're not a citizen Lone Star and the police have no duty to provide services to you and therefore you can disappear or be ejected from the city. There's no records of what happens to the SINless and you have no rights so they can't be violated, though the city and the corp might get bad PR for perceived mistreatment of the SINless, if anyone cared.

[Larme]

If you don't have a SIN, you're not a citizen of any country. They can't charge you for illegal immigration if you didn't come from somewhere else. You can't be an illegal immigrant where you were born. Shadowrun laws are unfair, but they're not stupid.

Lacking a SIN is also common enough that it wouldn't be treated as a crime. They might search you, detain you, etc., because the UCAS constitution doesn't apply to the SINless, but they're not going to bring you to court over it. Courts cost money. It's not worth it for someone who doesn't even have a SIN. They'll probably just drop you off on a street corner in a bad part of town after they decide you haven't committed a crime. There are bigger things for the police to deal with than people who don't have identification, like armed shadowrunners causing havoc every single day. Today's cops might spend most of their time on smalltime, meaningless arrests (possession of narcotics) but the SR4 police are stretched too thin and crime is too high for them to bother with arresting SINless people just for being SINless.

Now, if you commit a crime, they will happily give you a SIN; a criminal SIN. Whoopee!

[Heath Robinson]

You do raise a valid point, but - since you don't have any indication of where you came from - the legal system cannot be proved wrong in concluding that you originated elsewhere and passing you onto deportation. The only real impediment is the thought in the back of the minds of many employed in the legal system that a significant number of the SINless were formerly citizens of the country and charges of said system. That's going to make dealing with the SINless an unwanted task for the small pangs of guilt they create in those handling them and so they'll get ignored for the most part unless they commit a crime.

[Dr. John Desmond]

Being without a SIN is likely treated the sameway for the most part homelessness is today. There are certain things they can arrest you for (ie vagrancy which is basically being homeless and in the wrong part of town), and they will definately give you the crimalnal SIN in a big enough arrest, but for the most part I treat it as being homless w/ illegal immigrant qualities.

[DTFarstar]

The big thing is the no Lone Star services. See Wolf and Raven- people were hunting the SINless and when the cops picked it up they didn't even have to get bribed to let it go, they were SINless so the cases are not pursued, if someone comes in and confesses, great murder is still a crime for the citizen, but otherwise- Nothing.

Chris

[Grinder]

Not having a SIN means you cannot be a tax-paying citizen of the country and therefore you could be charged with illegal immigration and held in a cell or deported to wherever will take you

The SINless don't exist for the system. They don't pay taxes, true, but they don't have access to anything a state grants its citizens like basic health care or welfare money.

And to which country would you deport them?

[Fuchs]

In some states I could see SINless getting locked up "for deportation purposes" while the authorities are checking whether the subject really has no SIN, or might have a country of origin.

[Critias]

And to which country would you deport them?

They should put 'em all on rafts out in international waters. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Heath Robinson]

The SINless don't exist for the system. They don't pay taxes, true, but they don't have access to anything a state grants its citizens like basic health care or welfare money.

And to which country would you deport them?

Exactly, they're not a citizen and they're in the country without officially being permitted entry and are therefore illegally in that country. What said country does depends on who knows about the particular SINless person we're discussing and societal values as a whole. In the case of deportation, it'd be to wherever would want to take them; probably nowhere, which means they'll languish in a cell until they get offered an oppurtunity to obtain a valid SIN by the people who are holding them, they break out or they die.

Do we have any information on how often the various countries offer fresh SINs?

[Fuchs]

I'd assume that if they can't find a country that will take the SINless within a certain period of time, they'll be released. That's how it's done currently over here with illegal immigrants who won't reveal their country of origin - they get thrown in a holding prison for up to 18 months, with 18 more months possible in some cases.

[apollo124]

IMO, "walking around without a SIN" should probably not be a crime in most jurisdictions, other than the previously mentioned "must broadcast" zones. Even then, the cops would probably just question/hassle you until you leave (under duress if necessary), unless they think maybe you did something worth doing the paperwork to get you hauled off to jail for.

But, without rights, the cops could basically strip search you without a warrant or probable cause, do invasive id checks (I need some blood for typing and dna check please), rough you up if you don't cooperate, or if they think they can get away with it just put a bullet into you in that dark alley.

[YuriMilovic]

Since the Crash millions were left SINless in the UCAF alone. Since as we all know that the corps run everything except us a fake SIN is a must have. What happens when they try to got the hospital to a patch job? Or how will they get a home or drivers license. Its just a fact of life in 2070 that if you don't have a real SIN you have 1 or more fake SINs.

[Fuchs]

Not to mention that there might be a few countries/corps who would be only too happy to discover a missing citizen held by Lonestar.

"We have been looking for him for experi... I mean, crimes. Of course a wanted criminal would be claiming to have no SIN, but our records clearly show this ork.. I mean, this elf, elf, is a citizen of our corp. We'll send the truck over, as usual."

[Zak]

If you don't have a SIN, you're not a citizen of any country. They can't charge you for illegal immigration if you didn't come from somewhere else. You can't be an illegal immigrant where you were born. Shadowrun laws are unfair, but they're not stupid.

Well, you are probably right, yet this is an issue in some nations where citizenship isn't automatically assigned if you are born there.
There is quite a large number of people who do not have any nationality(lost, thrown away, born without, withdrawn, etc). Who are 'illegal', and who are treated like shit even in modern day democracys.

I will assume this maltreatment to skyrocket once you apply it for shadowrun. As everything is worse there.
So if LS or some other security company picks you up, you are lucky if you get away with a criminal SIN or a good bribe. If you aren't as fortunate you vanish. There is always need for labrats. And since SINless aren't people, they don't have any rights.

[Zak]

Since the Crash millions were left SINless in the UCAF alone. Since as we all know that the corps run everything except us a fake SIN is a must have. What happens when they try to got the hospital to a patch job? Or how will they get a home or drivers license. Its just a fact of life in 2070 that if you don't have a real SIN you have 1 or more fake SINs.

For my games I assume that a big part of the Barrens population is still SINless and not in possession of a faked SIN either. They don't need them, as the shadow economy basically reigns those areas. With their own sort of payment, their own shops and even their own doctors. Of course most can't afford medical care, but a normal hospital won't take them without money either.
If you are born SINless, you don't have many ways out. And most of them aren't pretty. Ah, screw that. None of them are pretty.

[Critias]

So if LS or some other security company picks you up, you are lucky if you get away with a criminal SIN or a good bribe. If you aren't as fortunate you vanish.

I'd say that depends on what they "pick you up" for. Do they just stumble across you and say "Look, some schmuck without a SIN?" If so, I imagine you can toss 'em a few bucks and they'll leave you alone (and you can probably skip the part where you bribe them, unless they're out to keep up some quota or you're really in the wrong neighborhood).

A criminal SIN means paperwork for them. Why would they go through the trouble of arresting you and booking you and charging you with something (all of which is necessary for you to get a criminal SIN) when you bribed them?

And why would they make you vanish, just for not having a SIN? While it's true there are, no doubt, SOME corporate security types who'll go around just beating on folks for no good reason...I don't think there are many that will just put two in your head and toss you into the Sound just because you don't seem to have a system identification number.

[Zak]

I am pretty sure you can make good money when you can deliver specific persons and don't ask questions where they end up.
Being SINless means you are not their client.
Being SINless means noone with legal status will bother looking for you.

Sure this is a somewhat pessimistic view, but hey, it's Shadowrun.

[Critias]

"Hey, it's Shadowrun" doesn't mean it happens all the time, though, for no good reason.

[nathanross]

Does everyone play with Fake SINs now? How dystopian do you feel the SINless are treated?

In certain settings, I can totally see the SINless squatters of the barrens being gathered up for medical experiments. On the other hand, I would like to believe in humanity (to an extent) and that they would just turn a blind eye to the suffering of the barrens population rather than actively make things harder for them.

[kzt]

I'd assume that if they can't find a country that will take the SINless within a certain period of time, they'll be released. That's how it's done currently over here with illegal immigrants who won't reveal their country of origin - they get thrown in a holding prison for up to 18 months, with 18 more months possible in some cases.

The US is a utopia. SR is a dystopia. I'd expect there are no cells, just a large pieces of empty land with barbed wire and automated guns. Typical 3rd world prison, see the opening of "Batman Begins". And you never get released, as it only costs about $5/day to keep you there. You can sign up for the PPV cage fights....

[DocTaotsu]

The BBB mentioned that SINless, at least in the UCAS, have "limited rights". Now not having a SIN means you don't really have a recourse to address any grievances made against those rights but still...

I think the comparison to being homeless is a good example. If you're homeless in the Barrens, that's about par for the course. If you're SINless Downtown during a LS lockdown, you're in a bad way.

This brings me back to a discussion we had earlier one which I was never really satisified with the answers: Why don't more people get SINs? If you're a law abiding nobody who just wants to feed his family and flip hamburgers, why not register for a SIN? I seem to recall reading that there are SIN amnesty programs, if you're not a Shadowrunner, and not completely homeless, wouldn't it be best if you got one? You could at least get a legitimate job working at some dead end business. The other side of it is: what are the barriers to getting a SIN? Do you have to have a fixed verifiable address? A certain income? Certainly this would be true of a corporate SIN but a UCAS SIN? Or a NAN?

[nathanross]

I assume for a lot of homeless, the reason they can't get a SIN is the same problem they have with getting an ID card or Driver's license. They have no home or address (necessarily), no proof of identity/citizenship, and sometimes no motive or idea that they even should have one. There are a lot of mentally handicap people on the streets due to the closing down of state mental institutions, and I if we are willing to put handicap people on the street with no way to survive in the modern world, I assume we'd be willing to do the same in 2070.

Also, one of the reasons I assume most people cannot get a SIN even if they want one is that the government and welfare systems are already pushed to the point of breaking, why would they want to take on more cases? If you acknowledge the citizenship of anyone, and especially those without skills, training, or any chance of paying taxes and contributing to society, you are, at least in the short-term, seriously crippling your economy. In Japan, people are very adept at not seeing what they don't want to see, and to feel safe, we must remain ignorant of much of what happens in the world at large. Most people cannot handle acknowledging the suffering of others, and I the Sixth World as having a lot of problems that people would rather die than admit.

As for the original subject, what neighborhoods/areas (primarily in Seattle, but could be in your own setting) do you have as require ID broadcasting? Do you have entire areas (all of Bellevue, etc) require it, or just certain areas/neighborhoods/communities within it?

[b1ffov3rfl0w]

"Hey, it's Shadowrun" doesn't mean it happens all the time, though, for no good reason.

Not having rights doesn't mean that people will always be screwing you over, just that if they do you have no legal recourse. If Lonestar needs to pin an unsolved crime on someone, or the real perp is well-connected, they might look at you as a convenient suspect. But if nothing like that is happening, not having a SIN just means you're not allowed in a must-broadcast zone; LS will probably just give you a ride back to the bad part of town, although you'll probably lose some of your (relatively) valuable items when you accidentally hit your head on the car door. Basically anything that crooked cops could get away with in an authoritarian environment with little to no transparency/accountability, that's what LS should be getting away with regularly. To anyone without a SIN.

In Max Headroom any "Blanks" picked up and brought into the automated "criminal justice system" were automatically guilty, no evidence or witnesses required.

In areas like the Barrens, where most people are SINless, the economy has to be sort of informal: certified credsticks, cash, maybe some "legit" transactions through fake SINs, but instead of credit being "credit from a bank" it's "credit from Big Vinnie" and bankruptcy might be handled by large trolls liquidating your assets, by which I mean selling your remaining organs to Tamanous.

[Larme]

You do raise a valid point, but - since you don't have any indication of where you came from - the legal system cannot be proved wrong in concluding that you originated elsewhere and passing you onto deportation.

First of all, since the UCAS constitution borrows mostly from the U.S. constitution, it's the state that has to prove things, not the defendant. Being unable to prove you didn't illegally immigrate is not enough. THEY have to prove you did illegally immigrate from somewhere else.

But that's beside the point. If you're SINless, there won't be any immigration hearing, or any court appearance at all. You don't have the right to a trial at all, so why would they bring you to court? Trials exist to ensure that accused get fair treatment and to assure the public that the system is legitimate. If you don't have the right to a trial, the state can summarily punish you however they want.

On deportation, they could summarily deport you to wherever they want, but the place they bring you will probably be PISSED. Neighboring nations aren't happy when UCAS dumps trash onto them, whether actual refuse or human garbage... If UCAS were dumb enough to try it, the other nation would probably just kick you back into UCAS.

Since no official system recognizes that a SINless person is missing, they could do what they want. They could let you go after confiscating your contraband, they could bring you to a bloodsport arena and make you win your freedom in the ring, they could sell you to a bunraku parlor, or sell your body to tanamous... The latter few would probably be uncommon, because there is at least some internal affairs policing at the Star, I assume. But the point is, there's no "proof" or legal process, just a summary decision of what to do with the dead to rights SINless scum.