Folding / Hidden guns in SR, SR4 design worse than real life ? Options

[MJBurrage]

Arsenal has two cool low-profile weapons for the discrete Shadowrunner.

Collapsible firearms (pages 22, 23):
• PSK-3 Heavy Pistol: 8-shot (5P,–1)
• PPSK-4 Machine Pistol: 30-shot (4p)

They were both introduced in 2061, and have the restriction that they cannot be collapsed (folded) while a magazine is loaded. This means that you have to 1) draw, 2) ready, and then 3) load, before firing. Note also that the PPSK-4 has a folding stock that must be unfolded itself after the weapon is unfolded.

In real life these designs date to 1986, and they can be folded/unfold with a magazine loaded. Also the unfolded case is the weapons folding stock. In SR terms the real weapons are unfolded/readied in one action and are already loaded. (See notes at end of post)

Does anybody know why the game designs are worse than the real designs? Is it a game balance thing that I don't see? Or is it just something that should be errataed?

Different but related question:

Given that the folding weapons are all about stealth and non-detection before use, shouldn't they be entirely non-metallic to avoid MAD detection? (like the HK Urban Fighter)


Real world history:

ARES FMG (1986, 9mm Parabellum) – Folding subMachine Gun designed by Francis Warin & Eugene Stoner for ARES Incorporated. It can be folded with a 20-round magazine loaded, and can use a 32-round magazine while unfolded. It did not pop open via a button, but was simply pulled open. Unconfirmed reports had it in use with the U.S. Secret Service, but it was never put into regular production.

UC-M21 (c. 1988, 9mm Parabellum) – Folding submachine gun designed and built by Dave Boatman. Basically a copy of the ARES design, never factory produced, famous for being used in one of the RoboCop films.

PP-90 (1990, 9mm Makarov) – Russian copy of the ARES design by KBP. While it could apparently be folded with a 30-round magazine loaded, it was poorly constructed, and disliked by its evaluators, it never went into production.

"Goblin" (1990s, 9mm Makarov) – Ukrainian version of the PP-90, with a smaller magazine, but including a small fore-grip, this reduced the magazine size, but the weapon could still be folded loaded.

Magpul FMG-9 (2007) – A prototype that improves on the ARES design, with a more refined and smaller deign, that actually fits around a Glock 17/18 slide. It is unfolded and ready at the push of a single button, and it can be folded with a Glock magazine loaded.

[Malicant]

How is a solid, nondescript block of metal that turns into a weapon worse than real world collapsible weapons? The illustrations suck, granted, but the description wins over illustrations everytime.

[KCKitsune]

How is a solid, nondescript block of metal that turns into a weapon worse than real world collapsible weapons? The illustrations suck, granted, but the description wins over illustrations everytime.

I think that MJBurrage is pointing out that IRL, the collapsible weapons can be folded with the mag in the weapon. This makes it that they are ready to rock and roll in a moment's notice. The two in Arsenal need to be loaded and that may be 2 seconds too long.

[Malicant]

I'd say time is a non factor with any assassination tool.

[Velocity219e]

I'd hardly regard a collapsable machine pistol an assassination tool.

sneaky sneaky sneak Brrrrp Brrrrp Brrrrp Brrrrp Brrrrp Brrrrp Sneaky sneak...

Smooth.

[Malicant]

Ok, so what is it, if not meant to kill people in places where they feel secure (i.e. assassination tool)? Self defense option? Hardly.

[Larme]

If you wanta weapon that goes from "a gun? where?" to "dakkadakkadakkadakka" in no time, go with the Executive Protector (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Siege]

Remember, the writers may not be the most well-versed in the real life subject matter.

This isn't knocking the writers, but simply an observation.

On that topic, it's also very difficult to write up a static rules system for an area that is changing almost constantly.

For an RPG like this, you kinda have to just run with it - maybe make a case to your GM for a house ruling if you can find justification irl, like the collapsible stock issue.

As for a machine pistol not being a valid assassin's tool - it all depends. Hinckley might have been more successful with a machine pistol than the .22 revolver he did use.

-Siege

[Shrike30]

I don't see what the problem with it being a machine pistol is.

Find yourself a few seconds of downtime, quietly, somewhere. It might be a dark alley, a bend in a hallway, a nook that a plant might live in, or anything where you can get those few seconds it takes to unfold the gun and pop in a magazine. The point of this device isn't that it's undetectable... it's that it's not RECOGNIZEABLE.

And when it comes to actually killing someone... an entire magazine put into a person's chest doesn't give good odds for survival. After that, it's time to go. Assassination isn't all about suppressed .22's and piano wire. Pretty frequently (check out the Mossad, folks), it involves a brutal amount of harm in a very small window of time, so that the assassin gets away in the chaos and the target isn't likely to survive his wounds.

[swirler]

i think part of the speed issue for the OP is summed up in the RL examples being for sec. service. "one moment mr. President, let me get this dang clip in!"

[Shrike30]

"Unconfirmed reports had it in use with the U.S. Secret Service." That aside, carrying a sidearm lets you engage quickly, and switching to the larger gun can be done, with a delay, if necessary. The focus is still on low profile.

Were it not, the "Secret" Service would just sling assault rifles and call it done, like most ruler's bodyguards do.

Given that the folding weapons are all about stealth and non-detection before use, shouldn't they be entirely non-metallic to avoid MAD detection? (like the HK Urban Fighter)

You search my luggage and find a plastic gun, I'm gonna have issues. You find a heavy "portable radio", you're gonna wonder why I need that much battery power.

[Serial_Peacemake...]

You know it is kind of odd the Secret Service do not carry heavier arms, but I know they keep such things handy. Also I can see where heavy weapons send the wrong impression. In anycase part of the point for these little brick of metal weapons is getting them where they should not be as has been mentioned. Also of course there is I suppose a storage concern.

[WearzManySkins]

From what I saw of the "Men with No Eyes" when they came on board my ship, at least one carried a Uzi on a sling underneath his jacket. The jacket had 4 extra clips along the bottom back part of it.

One opened a trunk of one of their limos, he then opened a case, inside was the "Classic" sniper rifle in three assemblies. There were more cases of different dimensions/sizes in that trunk, and no he did not open any more. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) So I can guess they have access to heavier weapons if needed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

WMS

[Knight takes Bis...]

Though not as useful in an impromptu situation, a collapsible weapon is still useful despite the loading hitch. I would think of this weapon as less of a practical weapon to conceal on your person at all times, and more of an assassin's weapon. That is, not in the context of carrying, but smuggling. If you want hidden and impromptu go for the gun-arm slide. collapsible weapons are meant to be harder to recognize as a weapon, and are to be used on the initiating attack. Don't depend on them as a countermeasure.

An assassin's best weapon is a plan, not a gun -collapsible or not.

[Angier]

If you ever get stuck in a solitary cell enclosed by a force field guarded by 4 heavy weapon auto-turrets and you get a PSK-3 to kill the guard or the director who will first disable the security devices in order to give this "present" to you, speak to you, than you will know where the coolness and usefulness of those "puzzle guns" comes from.

[Sir_Psycho]

Screw it all, just chop your arm off and get a hidden cyber-arm shotgun. Pow! Right in the kisser.

[Siege]

I don't know enough about the Presidential Protection duties of the Secret Service to offer specific reasons, but I can't imagine they don't have access to larger guns but since they are "on camera", the firepower is toned down to present a more politic image as well as reduce the opportunities for collateral damage (read: innocent bystanders).

That said, you best believe someone in close proximity to the President has access to bigger guns should the need arise. It's rarely the weapon you see that kills you.

-Siege

[nezumi]

The secret service is also in charge of dealing with counterfeit money. Since that oftentimes runs in with mafia dealings, I'm sure they have bigger guns to call on for that purpose.

[Fix-it]

You know it is kind of odd the Secret Service do not carry heavier arms, but I know they keep such things handy. Also I can see where heavy weapons send the wrong impression. In anycase part of the point for these little brick of metal weapons is getting them where they should not be as has been mentioned. Also of course there is I suppose a storage concern.

I'm pretty sure they have them, or "subcontract" it out to whoever is local. (Marines, etc)

SMGs don't do a lot of good really, the whole point is to get your mark away, and out of danger, not kill the attackers. if you notice, every time a president has been shot, they've all piled on and GTFO of dodge, not hose the direction the shot came from.

[Method]

The SS guys you see are only a small detail of the larger team guarding a VIP. I know of one case where the VPs wife was attending a campaign event for women at a small coffee shop. There were 3-4 MIBs in the coffee shop, but at least one SUV full of guys with assault rifles circling the block continuously.

[Shrike30]

That's my point. The weapons carried by the guys who are out "for show" are concealed, because they'd offend the sensibilities. If a folding SMG in your armpit is closer to you than the light machinegun in the trunk of your car, it's probably a good thing you brought it along.

Guns like the Urban Fighter are useful for being discreetly armed, since they let you go through metal detectors, etc, without freaking the locals and in theory, you aren't getting searched. Guns that fold up into non-gun shapes are useful for getting weapons into places where they don't want them, and are prepared to search people, containers, etc with the intention of preventing them from getting in.

Doesn't matter how much plastic you build a pistol out of... it still looks like a gun and feels like a gun when you get searched. Let it fold up into a flat box, and you could do all sorts of things with it, even if it's metal. Spare battery for your commlink? Sure. Control module for your car? Totally. Part of a piece of modern sculpture art? Absolutely. Build a casing that the folded gun fits into, stick some computer hardware in there with the right software, and you've got a new GameBox Portable 3, right down to being able to play BTL games.

Pull it out, slap in a mag, and start shooting, and someone who thought he was in a safe zone's got a bunch of new holes in him.