Language and Charisma Based Social Skills?, How well you speak is the bottleneck? Options

[WearzManySkins]

OK bringing this here rather than clutter up a WttS thread.

OK first issue/discussion
from BBB page 130

Charisma-Linked Skills and Language
When a character attempts to influence someone using another language, her persuasive ability is limited by her ability to convey ideas and concepts in that language. To reflect this, whenever a character uses a Charisma-linked Social skill to interact with another character in a non-native tongue, the Social skill dice used may not exceed the character’s Language skill rating.

OK Billy Raye Bobby Reddkneck is trying to Con a Japanese Businessman, Billy has Con of 6 with Pheromones +2(+1), and Emotitoy with empathy software of 6. But Billy only has Japanese at a skill of 3. So Billy has a modified Skill rating due to devices and bioware of 13.

How many dice does Billy roll for the Con Test?
1. 13 Dice?
2. 3 Dice?

Also to further complicate this is on Modified Skills.

Page 109 BBB

The unmodified skill rating assigned at character creation or purchased during game play is considered to be the character’s base skill rating. Some spells, abilities and implants may provide bonus dice to a skill, creating a modified skill rating, but this does not change the base skill rating. These extra dice are listed in parentheses after the base skill, as in Spellcasting 4 (+2). A modified skill cannot exceed the base skill rating x 1.5 (making 9 the maximum possible rating, or 10 with the Aptitude Quality).

So in the case of Billy his base skill of Con 6 maximum modified skill 9, so the extra dice modifiers are useless?

Edited Pheromones to only provide a +1 bonus to Social Test ie half the rating of the Pheromones.

WMS

[JBlades]

OK first issue/discussion
from BBB page 130

OK Billy Raye Bobby Reddkneck is trying to Con a Japanese Businessman, Billy has Con of 6 with Pheromones +2(+1), and Emotitoy with empathy software of 6. But Billy only has Japanese at a skill of 3. So Billy has a modified Skill rating due to devices and bioware of 13.

How many dice does Billy roll for the Con Test?
1. 13 Dice?
2. 3 Dice?

The answer as I understand it is 3 dice from the skill + 2 dice from the Tailored Phermones (which are a dice pool modifier, see below) + 6 dice from the empathy software in the emotitoy (which is also a dice pool modifier), for a total of 11 dice. Only the skill dice are affected by the language gap.

Also to further complicate this is on Modified Skills.

Page 109 BBB


So in the case of Billy his base skill of Con 6 maximum modified skill 9, so the extra dice modifiers are useless?

Edited Pheromones to only provide a +1 bonus to Social Test ie half the rating of the Pheromones.

WMS

You have to look at whether each individual modifier is called a "skill modifier" or a "dice pool modifier". "Skill modifiers" cap at 9 (in this case, being as the base skill is 6), while "dice pool modifiers" keep on going, being essentially unlimited. So again, Billy is usually rolling 6 dice from skill + 8 dice from dice pool modifiers, for a total of 14 dice.

For an example of a "skill modifier", look at the "Improved Ability" adept power description:

Improved Ability
...
This power increases the rating of a specific Active skill
by 1 per level. A skill’s maximum modified rating equals its
base rating x 1.5. Improved ability must be purchased for a
specific skill, not a skill group.
...

Note: Why were you reducing the phermone's rating to half? I haven't seen that anywhere...

[JBlades]

For clarity's sake, I'll ad the descriptions of the phermones and empathy software, with emphasis, so you can see what I'm seeing...

First the phermones:

Tailored Pheromones: The subject’s body is altered to
release specially designed pheromones to subtly influence
others. Tailored pheromones add their rating as a dice pool
modifier to Charisma and Social Skill Tests. This bonus has
no effect on magical abilities and tests.

and now the empathy software:

Empathy: Empathy software is designed for use with
standard video/trideo cameras, carefully analyzing the behavioral
patterns of the subject to ascertain mood, interest, and so
on. Empathy soft ware can be used to make a Judge Intentions Test
(see p. 130, SR4) for emotional status using its rating as the dice
pool. It does not detect falsehoods; that's the realm of lie detection
soft ware. Empathy soft ware can be discreetly used in real time during
negotiations or social interactions, adding its rating as a dice
pool bonus to the character's Social skill tests.

Now just one more thing: your sig. The vice president shoots people Wyoming, the president shoots them in Texas... Hope that clears it up! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Shrike30]

I agree with JBlades. The only thing being reduced is the skill dice, so he's effectively Conning as normal, with a Con of 3 (6, limited to 3 by his Japanese 3).

[DTFarstar]

In my games, you skill is limited by your language- not dice pool, but skill.

Chris

[Glyph]

I'll concur with the others - the tailored pheromones and empathy software both provide dice pool modifiers, so they aren't affected by the cap to the skill. Now, if your hypothetical character was also an adept, with improved ability/con: 3, then he would lose it, since that would be considered part of the skill rating.


One thing I have never understood about that rule is that it is only limited by the language skill of the character using the social skill. Personally, I think someone with a native language of English, trying to con someone with an English skill of 2, should be limited in the same way. I would probably house rule that the effective social skill is limited to the lowest rating of the language they are conversing in, looking at both characters' language skills.

[WearzManySkins]

From this Thread quote of Synner

For the record there is actually no such thing as a "bonus to skill rating" in SR4. There are modified skills and bonus/dice pool modifiers. The former are capped, the latter aren't.

*sighs* now if only the freelancers and Devs used the exact same terminology.

I was looking at the Augmentation Pheromones not the BBB.

As for my sig, the current US Vice President did shoot a fellow hunter down in Texas, with a shotgun, has he been hunting humans again outside of Texas? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

WMS

[WearzManySkins]

One thing I have never understood about that rule is that it is only limited by the language skill of the character using the social skill. Personally, I think someone with a native language of English, trying to con someone with an English skill of 2, should be limited in the same way. I would probably house rule that the effective social skill is limited to the lowest rating of the language they are conversing in, looking at both characters' language skills.

Yes good point you make there. Good house rule.

WMS

[Edge2054]

Empathy Software?!?!

Man my face needs some of that!!

[JBlades]

Ah! I see they were nice and vague in the Enhanced Phermone Receptors description and didn't mention what type of "bonus" it was, but I'd assume dice pool, as it's not saying "adds to X skill or attribute", but rather just says to add 1/2 it's rating to the roll.

I thought the vice prez was at home in Wyoming when he shot that guy. He's not from Texas, he's from outside Jackson Hole in Wyoming. Oh well, I could be wrong. Not a big deal. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Someday when I have a load of free time, I've been thinking about making a list of things that provide skill/attribute modifiers vs. those that provide dice pool modifiers, as that might be the single best cheat sheet for character creation from a GM's PoV, but since I never have loads of free time...

[Fortune]

Empathy Software?!?!

Yep. Emotitoys from Arsenal. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I agree with the others as to the Skill issue, but then WMS knew that already, since it was my character that sparked this discussion. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The only things that add directly to the Skill itself in SR4 (so far) are the Adept Improved Ability Power, Reflex Recorders, and Move-by-Wire's Dodge bonus. Everything else is a dice pool modifier.

[Shrike30]

I thought the vice prez was at home in Wyoming when he shot that guy. He's not from Texas, he's from outside Jackson Hole in Wyoming. Oh well, I could be wrong. Not a big deal. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Cheney shot Harry Whittington in Kenedy County, Texas.

[Edge2054]

I agree with the others as to the Skill issue, but then WMS knew that already, since it was my character that sparked this discussion. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Same. I had to reread that section a few times to get it but it basically says that you can't use more social skill dice then you have language skill dice.

This does bring up the reverse though, would + dice to language skills allow you to add more social dice? By RAW I'd say no but something like a mnemonic enhancer lets you communicate better so my logic says that it should.

Along those same lines an interesting house rule would be to cap social die pools at your language die pool, since your base attribute in the language plays a role in communicating as well. So cha + skill dice can not exceed int + skill dice. Additional modifiers to the pool would have to be taken on a case by case basis, pheromones certainly cross language barriers for instance.

[Fortune]

Shrug. I know people that can be very damn intimidating without speaking a word. I think that if a limit is needed, then the canon limit is ample. Limiting the Pool itself would be far too restrictive.

[WearzManySkins]

@Fortune
You had better put a rating 6 firewall on that emotitoy, a hacked one could have most interesting interactions in game.

WMS

[WeaverMount]

Honestly I think the whole skill capped by language is silly. Children begging in Mexican border towns don't say anything in English, but man do they have the con skill (This isn't to say they aren't actually poor and in need of care, but they work it hard). Intimidation, flirting, and blending in can all be totally non-verbal social rolls. More over the first to have a lot to do with fairly primitive cross-cultural bio-social wiring. Now where I would hammer someone for not speaking the native language in well word play. Fast talk? nuhah. Haggling? penalty. Intimidate with the goal of getting someone to fuck off? totally cool. Intimidate for information? penalty. Honestly I'd be more willing to cap social skills by knowledge (cultural X) than a language.

[Edge2054]

Shrug. I know people that can be very damn intimidating without speaking a word. I think that if a limit is needed, then the canon limit is ample. Limiting the Pool itself would be far too restrictive.

It'd be different but wouldn't mean every character would end up with less dice. I suppose most faces would but someone with 5 int and 3 cha would actually be less restricted.

Anyway the system's really alright the way it's written. My suggestion on a house rule is just for those that want to take into account that there's more then just your language dice that affect how well you can communicate in a language, intuition being one of those things (mnemonic enhancers being another).

[masterofm]

Bah I have never been a big fan of this whole stupid thing especially how the BBB defines ranks in skill

I'm sorry but if a skill of 3 lets you do something professionally... you know like say oh I don't know... speaking a language then why even bother rolling if someone's language skill is 3+. At that point there should really be very little lost in translation going on. A skill of 0-2 yeah there should be penalties, but why not just let someone with a language skill of 3+ just speak the damn language w/o restriction (for the most part) as if they knew what they were doing..... I mean it's not stupid that way and you don't have to break your back over game fundamentals and funky dice rolling.

If you can speak Spanish like a pro then it just would baffle me that a social face will run into large troubles. Will they mistake chingar with chiqua or even something more subtle? Would a professional in a certain field of language really screw up or maybe they are just good enough to not do the stupid mistakes that many people tend to make. Should a professional be able to critical glitch saying to someone "hello my name is mr. ___ please do not mind my friends and I as we are just out for a stroll."

[JBlades]

Cheney shot Harry Whittington in Kenedy County, Texas.

I stand corrected. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[bibliophile20]

One thing I have never understood about that rule is that it is only limited by the language skill of the character using the social skill. Personally, I think someone with a native language of English, trying to con someone with an English skill of 2, should be limited in the same way. I would probably house rule that the effective social skill is limited to the lowest rating of the language they are conversing in, looking at both characters' language skills.

Reminds me of a bit from the Disworld book The Fifth Elephant; Vetinari is speaking with the newly promoted Captain Fred Colon, who is, to be nice, not the sharpest knife in the drawer. At one point in the conversation, Vetinari muses that he's become so used to dealing with people that treated conversation as a game and as a competition that trying to compensate for Colon's sake was leading him to overshoot.

I stand corrected. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

You might want to duck corrected instead. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[DocTaotsu]

I concur with the opinion that it should only limit the skill not the pool.

I disagree that the amount of negotiation or con shouldn't be capped by language. Sure that lovely street urchin can tug your heart strings but I'd say that's more a matter of situational modifiers: +2 "costume" (raggedly clothes, open sores, etc), +1 specialization (foreigners), than inherent skill in faking people out. But if the same street urchin is trying to convince you that it would be in your best interest to buy term life insurance with low monthly payments, their lack of English would certainly hinder them. Trying to pull a simple con that doesn't rely on verbal communications should be easy, but trying for any sort of complex con should require a grasp of the language.

Linking intimidation to language seems a bit odd but I turn to situational modifiers again. Sure Guido the mafia strong man can stare at you from across the room and scare you but his well spoken boss who whispers sweet nothings (in your native language) about how he's going sell your sister to a bunraku parlor is probably going to get more bang for his skill buck. Guido is big and scary and gets bonus dice pool, Guido is currently using his cyber hands to poke holes in your dining room tabl, more bonus. Guido can't speak a word of your native language and the fact that he has a big scary voice can only go so far. Against your average 3 die chump he'll steam roll them, against a seasoned negotiator he'll get chewed up.

I'd also like to point out that knowledge of a language is a knowledge of a culture as well. At level 3 you know can read, write, and speak fluently, enough to get you a job as a translator. You know the Webster dictionary definition for words but the connotations of those words are probably slightly beyond you. At level 6 you can critically analyze literature, write extremely persuasively, and make a rousing speech. At level 6 you would know all the nuances of a language, what words would play best with certain groups, what lingos are popular, etc. At level 3 people say "Wow, that guy speaks pretty decent English" at level 6 people say "Did you go to the same college as me?". I'd also say that your accent is probably completely gone at level 6, no mean feat and one that I think is reflected in karma cost to learn a language at that level.

[Heath Robinson]

I'm sorry but if a skill of 3 lets you do something professionally... you know like say oh I don't know... speaking a language then why even bother rolling if someone's language skill is 3+.

Learning a language is more than just learning word substitutions and grammatical rules; there are idioms, common cultural tropes and experiences, and expectations that need to be properly understood in order to be able to communicate well enough to persuade them that black is white or you're actually one of his employers. Language understanding is about fully immersing yourself in a different worldview (I find it somewhat difficult to believe American social norms, and you guys speak the same language as I) to the extent that you can make them associate themselves with you and believe you have shared values. Knowing their culture allows you to pick up on the particular buttons they have and understand the best way to manipulate them to get what you want without appearing to go too far.

For example, if you have Japanese 3 and Con 6 you might wander up to the night shift guard and ask to be let into the office; you left some paperwork behind and need to grab it, when the guard responds that he'll let you in you might not notice the begrudging edge in his voice that implies you might want to offer him something in return for it or the supressed suspicion that tells you he'll be watching you on the cameras. At rank 3 you can understand what he is saying perfectly, but you're not necessarily experienced enough to be able to read his suspicions as you might be able to do in your native tongue.

If you had Japanese 6 instead you might understand his tone of voice and speech patterns better but you might also remember to act really drunk, turn up towards bar closing time, and give the guard a slightly deeper than normal bow; all of which persuades him you're actually a Japanese businessman that's grabbing something he forgot after the traditional evening of excessive drinking (couldn't leave too early or your officemates would be suspicious) and that you're embarassed about it and could he not mention this to his superiors for the sake of your face.

[WearzManySkins]

From my personal experiences with languages ie Tagalog, Japanese, German, French, and Spanish, language is the bottleneck at getting more than the basic concepts across. Yes ordering a beer is fairly easy but attempting to negotiate in those languages with out good ability to speak it, results are not good.

My knee jerk response is the have language be the bottleneck despite what RAW states, but I will not due the entire rules in RAW would need major tweaking to be consistent.

WMS

[DocTaotsu]

Heath:
I'd say that your last example is more a matter of etiquette. But you're right that language and culture go hand in hand. Knowing that a word has a certain connotation would certainly go a long way towards convincing the guard that you're drunk or that you're really sorry for bugging him after hours. I particularly see this being true if you try to use humor to defuse a situation. Not having an absolute grasp of a language could get you in some very hot water.

[Larme]

You can't have a cogent discussion about modified skill ratings without the errata. The BBB's treatment of modified skill ratings is absolutely FUBAR. The errata make it clear: there are "bonus dice" and there are "modified ratings." It is only the modified ratings that count against the limit of base skill x 1.5. Things like reflex recorders and improved ability fall into this category, because the errata clarifies that they modify the skill rating and don't just provide bonus dice. Other things are bonus dice and don't count towards the limit, like kinesics or combat sense or specializations.

They don't give us hard and fast rules for distinguishing the two. You have to look at the language: if something specifically states it modifies the rating, or adds to the skill rating, it is a modified skill and its bonus counts against the base skill x 1.5 limit. If it doesn't explicitly state that, it's bonus dice.

What does this mean? That social adepts can get fuckall high dice pools, especially after Arsenal. A social adept can get 8 charisma (elf), 6( 8 ) skill, kinesics 6, and empathy software 6 for... 28 dice. This shouldn't be a big deal - yes a maxed out social adept is unstoppable socially, but talking only goes so far. You can't talk to bullets, you can't talk to spirits, you can't talk to drones... Sammies are the ones with the catchall skill. There's nothing that can't be killed, so a sammie is technically never out of the game. Someone who puts all their points into social, however, is going to be worthless once the fur starts flying.

I don't see where anyone is getting the idea that language skills limit your dice for social tests though. The only thing in the BBB is this: in order to convey something in a foreign language, you must make a language skill test against the threshold based on how complex the thing you're trying to say is. If you fail the language test, the people can't understand you, and it doesn't matter how many dice you have in social skills. If you pass, they understand you, and your social dice have full effect. There is no reasonable argument that if you only have a 3 in Japanese, and you pass your test and express something with perfect clarity, that you can still only roll 3 social dice... Yes, there is a language bottleneck, but it is adequately represented by the language test required by the RAW. A new rule would be duplicative and needlessly nerfy.