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> Movement and Multiple Initiative Passes
Ranger
post Mar 17 2008, 06:36 PM
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How does movement work when you have multiple IPs in a combat turn?

I know that you divide your speed by the number of IPs to find out how far you move per IP. That's easy enough.

But, if you have only 1 IP while your enemy has 3 IPs, how does it work? Do you move [speed/(# of IPs)] per IP? Do you move your full speed on your only IP?

If you move [speed/(# of IPs)] per IP, do you have to declare your destination before you start moving, or can you decide your destination as you move along in each IP? In other words, can you dynamically choose where you are going, or are you stuck going to whereever you declared during your IP?
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Larme
post Mar 17 2008, 07:11 PM
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I'm not bothering to look this up for evidence, but the way I've always handled it is that you divide up the Combat Turn based on how many Initiative Passes there are total. And then everyone's movement gets divided by that number of passes. If one guy has 4 IPs and the rest have 1, and they all run, they each would go (running speed) / 4 meters each initiative pass.
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Nightwalker450
post Mar 17 2008, 07:17 PM
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I'd have no problem with them changing direction later on.. Though this change couldn't be done till their usual placement in Initiative order (even if they don't have a pass that turn, they'd still have to wait till when they would go if they did have a pass)
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counterveil
post Mar 17 2008, 07:18 PM
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My new rule for ease of calculation is that there are always 4 IPs in a Turn - I read that either on this forum or on another, and I really liked the idea. This way you don't have to recalc movement all the time; you just list movemet per-pass instead of per-turn for each race. Makes my game much easier.

I also reduced maximum IPs to 3, set all Turns to always have 3 passes, and modified any cyberware / magic ability that gave you 4 IPs to instead give +2 Reaction, but that's another story...

Anyway, what Larme said is pretty much exactly according to the rules; I just found that particular rule cumbersome in general play so I went with the fixed IP per Turn route. Has worked very nicely for me and my gaming group (they hate math).
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Ranger
post Mar 17 2008, 08:12 PM
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How can you hate math and play an RPG? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

In any event, combining what everyone said so far, it sounds like the following:

- You move on your initiative on all passes a number of meters equal to your speed / # of IPs.

- You can choose your destination on each individual IP for that IP of movement.

I can go with that.

I am going to assume that if you have only 1 IP per turn, then you have to choose your movement rate in your first and only IP, and stick with it for the rest of the turn. I assume this since different movement rates have different action costs. So, once you spend the action, you have to stick with it. Although, I would say you can choose not to move on a particular IP.

A related question: at the start of each of your IPs, you have to declare your actions. If you declare that you are running and using 2 simple actions to fire a semi-auto pistol twice, when do the actions take place in relation to one another?

Can you shoot twice, then move, or move then shoot twice? If you can do either, does that mean that you don't suffer the running penalty when you shoot?
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Stahlseele
post Mar 17 2008, 08:17 PM
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you're working on this from the wrong side of the rules.
it's not as if you're only moving 1/4 of the Distance per pass, it's just that on the same difference as somebody with 1 pass you get 4 actions WHILE RUNNING
ya ain't gettin slowa ya gitz, ya gettin more choppy/shooty while movin'!
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Nightwalker450
post Mar 17 2008, 08:27 PM
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QUOTE (Ranger @ Mar 17 2008, 03:12 PM) *
I am going to assume that if you have only 1 IP per turn, then you have to choose your movement rate in your first and only IP, and stick with it for the rest of the turn. I assume this since different movement rates have different action costs. So, once you spend the action, you have to stick with it. Although, I would say you can choose not to move on a particular IP.


I'd let them declare their speed at the beginning, but they could move at that speed or anything lower, penalties of course will be applied using the original speed declared. (Since only higher speeds use up more actions)

QUOTE (Ranger @ Mar 17 2008, 03:12 PM) *
A related question: at the start of each of your IPs, you have to declare your actions. If you declare that you are running and using 2 simple actions to fire a semi-auto pistol twice, when do the actions take place in relation to one another?

Can you shoot twice, then move, or move then shoot twice? If you can do either, does that mean that you don't suffer the running penalty when you shoot?


Since they are all happening in the same IP you take the running penalty. As to when the shots are fired any time during the pass would probably be allowed (since I wouldn't want to get into too much detail on this, just let it go as that). If this is a matter of the person with 1 IP, he can use his free action to start moving and delay his action till he got within range to use his actions, he'll still suffer the movement penalties though.

Example: I have one IP, and want to run past a hallway and fire blindly down it. First 2 IP's are getting to the hallway, 3rd IP I am passing it, and make my SA shots down the hallway, on the 4th pass I'm continuing further on my course. This is done by a person with a single IP, 1 free action, and 2 simple actions to fire. Granted this runner is suffering an almost -9 (-3 running, -6 blind fire) on his attack, I think a wide full burst down the hall on the run by would be better..

If someone has 4 IP's they could run to the hall (2 IP's), walk past and fire during the 3rd IP, and then run again on the 4th IP. Less penalties, since Blind fire might not be applied here as well, since he actually is in view of the hallway for his full IP.

2 IPs could be done as run to the hall (1 IP + delayed action), then walk past the hall, and continue down the hallway during the 3rd and 4th IP (Here he delays his 2nd IP until he's at the hallway)

None of this is listed in the book other than "GM may apply modifiers as necessary". If it can be rationalized out, without breaking the game I'll let it fly.
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Slymoon
post Mar 17 2008, 08:30 PM
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Here is me Sidetracking again (it is somewhat related):

A house rule I used in SR3 pertained to full autofire and IPs:

As per RAW a 1 IP person can fire 10 rounds in 3 seconds, where as a 4 IP, person could fire 40, 10 per IP.
Now since Full Autofire should not be relegated by how fast the person holding the trigger moves. Note: I said Holding the trigger not pulling.

I house ruled it simply:

40 rounds full autofire can be fired per 3 seconds.
Yes this means a 1 IP person could hold the trigger down spraying 40 rounds all over hell and back. Making one gigantic bucket of racket and a shitload of lead flying... likely in all directions.

2 IP could fire 20 full auto rnds per IP, likely still having a crapload of lead in all directions
3 IPs could fire 13 and change per IP, possibly with reinforcement get some rounds in the right area.
and of course 4 IPs 10 per IP.
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Ranger
post Mar 17 2008, 08:35 PM
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QUOTE (Nightwalker450 @ Mar 17 2008, 12:27 PM) *
I'd let them declare their speed at the beginning, but they could move at that speed or anything lower, penalties of course will be applied using the original speed declared. (Since only higher speeds use up more actions)

Since they are all happening in the same IP you take the running penalty. As to when the shots are fired any time during the pass would probably be allowed (since I wouldn't want to get into too much detail on this, just let it go as that). If this is a matter of the person with 1 IP, he can use his free action to start moving and delay his action till he got within range to use his actions, he'll still suffer the movement penalties though.


Sounds reasonable. I guess if you fire first then move, you'd get the penalty because you are rushing the shots so that you can get moving. That would rationalize it nicely. If you move first then fire, you'd had less time to shoot, so you'd be rushing the shots as well. That works for me.
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deek
post Mar 17 2008, 08:38 PM
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We always play with 4 IPs, even though none of my player (or opposition) have that many (although someone could spend edge to act in all four). Because of this, I slightly modified movement to be more manageable:

Movement Rules
Humans, elves, orks Walking = 3m/IP, Running = 6m/IP
Dwarfs Walking = 2m/IP, Running = 4m/IP
Trolls Walking = 4m/IP, Running = 9m/IP

Rules for Sprinting
1 success = 2m/turn or 1m/IP (rounding up)
2 success = 4m/turn or 1m/IP
3 success = 6m/turn or 2m/IP (rounding up)
4 success = 8m/turn or 2m/IP
5 success = 10m/turn or 3m/IP (rounding up)
6 success = 12m/turn or 3m/IP

This has worked rather well for us.

Also, if someone is just walking, that is free (not a free action), so someone with 1IP can move in each pass. Now, running or sprinting, does cost, so that 1IP guy has to choose his movement in the first pass and stick to it until his next action (which would be IP 1 of the 2nd combat turn), while the 4IP guy could choose to run/sprint, each IP, as long as he has the actions to change.

As for the order, I allow the movement to go before, during or after other actions, but apply the appropriate movement penalties throughout the IP. That includes cover, so someone couldn't choose to move out of cover, stop, shoot (with no movement penalty) and then move back into cover. I mean, they could, but they are not getting the cover benefit for that pass...
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counterveil
post Mar 17 2008, 08:38 PM
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Thanks for the idea Slymoon, i like it! They're already passing off movement as a total-per-turn-allowable thing, why not the autofire too? I think I may have to borrow that one for my campaign as well (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Ranger
post Mar 17 2008, 08:54 PM
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QUOTE (deek @ Mar 17 2008, 12:38 PM) *
We always play with 4 IPs, even though none of my player (or opposition) have that many (although someone could spend edge to act in all four). Because of this, I slightly modified movement to be more manageable:
...


Hmm, that seems to be a pretty good system. If I get tired of figuring out how far people can move by the book, I think I'll adopt your system, Deek. Thanks for the input.
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DTFarstar
post Mar 17 2008, 09:01 PM
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I changed all movement speeds to be easily divisible by 4, and I do the "Every Combat Turn Always Has 4 IPs" thing, I was surprised when I first started on DS to find that not everyone did that(the IP thing not the houseruling move speeds thing). I also apply running modifiers to the IP they run during and all subsequent IPs no matter how far they move. So, if you have 3 IPs you can shoot without penalty in the first IP to get them ducking, run from cover to cover firing off potshots(-2 running), and fire more when you get there in the third IP, but I apply the running penalty because you were running .75 seconds ago, dammit, you are still going to be off balance and aim.

Oh, I also do the 4,2,3,1 thing. Makes IPs a little more valuable, but unlike a lot of people I think they SHOULD be valuable. Reacting faster than your opponent - THINKING faster than your opponent is a huge frigging deal so I don't have problems with making it that way. Sure, that means runners with 3 IPs blow Joe Blow OneIP out of the water, but that is why unless I'm giving them a milk run, if they are fighting Joe Blow OneIP they are also fighting his 20 friends. Superior numbers can nullify a lot of advantages. Each runner is literally worth his IPs in Joe Blow OneIPs, but when there are more of Joe Blow OneIP than the runners have IPs, that is when things get interesting. Also, group edge for getting multiple IPs helps.

Anyway, I digress, just pay attention to the first paragraph and don't derail the thread. Just stating that 4,1,3,2 gets rid of a lot of problems with the inconsistencies between actions of low and high IP people. I've tried 4,2,3,1 and 4,3,1,2 as well, and it is kind of a tie between 4,3,1,2 and 4,1,3,2 but while the former allows 1 IP people to react after the fact to 3 and 4 IP people, it also can get them killed really quickly, so I typically use 4,1,3,2 or in a high powered game 4,2,3,1.

Chris
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counterveil
post Mar 17 2008, 09:17 PM
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I figured I'd read my now-adopted houserule on dumpshock somewhere - I knew I couldn't have come up with that myself. I just got frustrated re-dividing the per-turn movement every time the number of maximum IPs in combat changed so I came here, probably saw a post from Deek, and freaked out at the beauty and simplicity of it.

So deek, if that was your post originally that I read - my undying thanks go to you (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Ranger
post Mar 17 2008, 09:20 PM
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I have an Excel spreadsheet that I use to keep track of character data, and it auto-calculates the movement for me. At all times, I know the movement for 1, 2, 3, or 4 IPs. So, the math part isn't an issue for me.

I just needed to clarify how the rules are supposed to work, then decide from there if I wanted to house rule anything.
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deek
post Mar 18 2008, 03:01 PM
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QUOTE (counterveil @ Mar 17 2008, 05:17 PM) *
I figured I'd read my now-adopted houserule on dumpshock somewhere - I knew I couldn't have come up with that myself. I just got frustrated re-dividing the per-turn movement every time the number of maximum IPs in combat changed so I came here, probably saw a post from Deek, and freaked out at the beauty and simplicity of it.

So deek, if that was your post originally that I read - my undying thanks go to you (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Hehe...who knows? But if it was one of my prior posts that helped you out, your welcome:)


Hmmm...my players (which I talked to yesterday), didn't like the idea of having to roll for your passes, and possibly being unable to act to their fullest. Actually, the response was, "Are you making WR cheaper? If not, then I don't like it." So, that is probably out for me trying that rule at my table. But, I think I may try and convince them of the different ordering of IPs. I'll see what they say about 4, 1, 3, 2.

Has anyone successfully used a 4, 3, 2, 1 order?
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DTFarstar
post Mar 18 2008, 05:34 PM
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It works on the higher end when your players and all their opponents have 3 or 4 passes, but if you still throw a Joe Mook, or even Joe Mook w/Jazz in there they get stomped in half. Which is fine if they are supposed to, but the linear 4-1 relationship only works well if your players and their enemies go at approximately the same time. Otherwise not only will the 4IP mage get to go two more times than the opposition with 2 IPs, but will get to go 3 times in a row before they can act.(probably has a higher init, but guaranteed 2 times before they go) Which is an insane advantage. You can kite the hell out of someone with that.

Chris
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DTFarstar
post Mar 18 2008, 05:35 PM
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Don't get me wrong, it makes the most sense to me, but sometimes you have to sacrifice sense for game balance.

Chris
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cryptoknight
post Mar 18 2008, 09:09 PM
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I once got to experience a 2nd or 3rd ed where they did initiative phases similar to I think some space combat game. (Starfleet Battles?)

Adapting it to SR4 would be something like the following. Every combat has 4 Initiative Phases (not capped by the person with the highest # of IPs)

Basically it breaks down to everybody can do a free action every initiative phase (movement, talking, etc), but can't do simple or complex action except when they have an IP to spend doing it.

Basically the Character begins at their initiative score and starts holding their action until they choose to use it, or a new one comes along and they refresh at it.

1 IP: Player gets an Action at IP 1 that they can use in any of the 4 IPs
2 IP: Player gets Actions at IPs 1 and 3 that they can use in any of the IPs until another Action comes to them.
3 IP: Player gets Actions at IPs 2 and 3 and an additional IP at either IP 1 or 4 (their choice)
4 IP: Player gets Actions at all IPs

Not too different than BBB initiative, except for the free action at every IP so that a player can continue their movement. This allows a security guard to run up to the doorway, slow down and fire while moving through the doorway and then run out of the firing lane.
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Edge2054
post Mar 18 2008, 09:43 PM
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On the initiative ordering thing, 2nd edition was basically 4, 3, 2, 1 and it was extremely lethal for characters without high reaction.

4th edition really isn't a far cry from that, the guy with one IP really only sees the 1, 2, 3, 4 thing on his first action of each combat, the difference is if you give slower characters the chance to do something before the lead really starts flying they can grab some cover. After he gets to go once, Mr. 1 IP is always going to be waiting 3 passes to go again rather you go with the standard system or 4, 3, 2, 1, the difference is rather or not he's been shot at eight times by Mr. 4 IP before he's even had a chance to take cover.

Changing the pass sequence also brings up another issue directly related to this topic, running. It takes a free action to run and you can't spend a free action until your first action phase comes around. I suppose this could be corrected easily enough though by allowing a character to spend his free action on the 4th IP (1st IP sequentially) once his initiative score rolls around, even if he's not eligible for an Action Phase in that IP.
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Method
post Mar 18 2008, 11:34 PM
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I posted this idea in another thread many ages ago, but you could adapt it to SR4:

QUOTE
The way I see it, all this move and act stuff comes down to one central problem: where is the character when the shit goes down?

So what I'm thinking is:

- you calculate movement rates and what not as normal (Quick X whatever / Passes). [for SR4 you would use the set rates]
- characters declare if they are moving at the start of each Combat Pass.
- at the start of the pass everyone who will move is moved half thier movement for that phase.
- at this time you resolve all actions for that Pass using the half way point as an arbitrary possition to calculate ranges, cover, etc.
- at the end of the Pass any characters not stopped (killed, knocked down, etc.) move the remainder of their movement.

Note that in real life this artificial break in their movement would not occur. The character would move continuously from one point to another, shooting and taking fire all along the way. This system would be used in the interest creating smooth game play while maintaining a certain degree of reality. Characters do not really stop. The pause in their movement just represents an intermittent position for simplicity of resolving actions. In the generalized scheme of SR combat the character is just as likely to be on one side of the half way point as the other when things go down, so you use the mid point as kind of an "average". It also gives combat a kind of Matrix style "bullet-time" feel.

So far as I can see it works with most of the cannon rules, but solves a lot of the movement problems such as characters poping in and out of cover without ever having to think about getting shot at. It also makes supression fire more effective, promotes tactical movement/thinking by players, makes cover vital- characters can actually be "pinned down" behind cover because they know they will take fire if they move. Characters trying to close into HTH risk taking fire as they charge toward thier enemy. It gives poor HTH fighters a chance to shoot the physad charging at them.

Unfortunately i haven't tested this enough to see all the millions of different situations that could arise and if they work or not. Any ideas?
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Sponge
post Mar 19 2008, 05:34 AM
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QUOTE (DTFarstar @ Mar 17 2008, 05:01 PM) *
Oh, I also do the 4,2,3,1 thing.


Don't characters with more IPs tend to have higher initiatives, resulting them in going before the lower-IP characters anyways, without fiddling with the action sequence?

DS
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