Arsenal review, What are your thoughts? Options

[hermit]

In all honesty, I know of two cities that use them - London (for show, mostly) and a private security firm in HAmburg that's guarding one street. With sidewalks usually not street-wide, segways just get stuck in pedestrian traffic most of the time.

[WearzManySkins]

I am with Hermit on the Segway, again it appears to be a "Gee Whizz" with little use, along withe the Emotitoy, which is house rules out in my games, due the loop hole it creates, and the unprofessional appearance it gives.

WMS

[Cadmus]

I am with Hermit on the Segway, again it appears to be a "Gee Whizz" with little use, along withe the Emotitoy, which is house rules out in my games, due the loop hole it creates, and the unprofessional appearance it gives.

WMS

I don't know the Emotitoy is a great idea for one of my char's (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) granted at the same time all his matrix agents look like jawas, and he has bunny ears planted on the top of his steel lynx. what? he has his own gun bunny (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Synner]

Well, give them pintle mounts and armour 20 and you'll see who razzes whom ... or something.
Maybe, you could put an infinite number of them (because there's no more freight room any mire!) into that shiawase cutter and mod that to floatyness! You'd have a Final Fantasy Army then! Just paint the segways yellow and pretend they look like chicken ...

The fact that you don't like some of the vehicle modding rules and that you don't like PMVs makes them no less valid and useful in the functions I've described.

My local municipality (which is quite hilly - it's known as the City of 7 Hills) has just bought a 100 Segways for the police force and I made wisecracks everyone makes about cops-on-wheels until about two weeks ago cops on these things caught up with and nailed a purse snatcher right in front of where I work—a 18 kid who was much fitter than the local cops and would certainly have evaded them on foot otherwise. Lisbon also has one of the biggest shopping malls in Europe (the Colombo) - which is still half the ground area of the Renraku Arcology and only has 3 floors - and guess what? The local rentacops are patrolling the place in Segways too, and this is the ass-end of Europe. I've got friends in Madrid, Barcelona, and Rome that tell me they're starting to be picked up there too. So you'll all pardon if I'm not the least bit skeptical about this kind of vehicle being in common use in enclosed environments and habitats.

But changing the subject slightly, besides the inclusion of the Segway and PMVs, what are your complaints with the current list of vehicles and what exactly do you think is missing?

Like the Yellowjacket and Wasp?

I would have preferred an all new model of a light military helicopter, but in the end we decided to stick to tradition and keep an old favorite.

[Whipstitch]

It's cheap, can be drone rigged and lets you outrun anyone short of a sprinting troll while jacked into hotsim. I'd use a Steed instead in an effort to avoid the dork factor, but rolling around in a specialized drone of some sort certainly can have its uses. Besides, you can now feasibly play a Professor Xavier rip off with Infirm, Astral Perception, Manipulation/Detection specialization and a wheelchair drone to get around without getting immediately slaughtered. I'm not a big fan of a lot of the stuff Arsenal has brought in, but the Segways and Transys Steeds aren't on the list of things I'd complain about.

[hermit]

I would have preferred an all new model of a light military helicopter, but in the end we decided to stick to tradition and keep an old favorite.

What for? You already had one. You don't have a better than the Westwind sports car though, an upper-class sedan between comet and nightsky (think mercedes benz E200) or a golf-class subcompact (which IS the world's most common car type after all). Nothing against the jacket, but it always has been a variant of the wasp (and been listed as such, even).

Also, I have yet to see segways in action where I live, and I don't really see them work except in cities without stairs and wide walkways (never having been to Lisbon, I can't tell whether or not that applies to that city, though.

[Whipstitch]

I've yet to see trolls, houngans and extendable Inspector Gadget finger mods either. Clearly the devs just keep dropping the ball. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)

[hermit]

How nice for you that you can suspend your disbelief more thoroughly than I can but ... your point being, aside from that?

Besides, my aunt is a practicing shaman, so I am used to some crazyness there.

[Whipstitch]

How nice for you that you can suspend your disbelief more thoroughly than I can but ... your point being, aside from that?

My point is that demonstrably useful things should be included in the books regardless of your anecdotal experiences. In this case the fact that Segways already exist only compounds their plausibility, especially when you consider there's circumstances within the setting that give them unique advantages for certain classes of workers that make them potentially more useful than they are today.

[Critias]

Besides, my aunt is a practicing shaman, so I am used to some crazyness there.

Hey, good news, it's 2008! She's only gotta practice a few more years, and she'll start doing something with it.

[hermit]

That things that already exist and are demonstrably useful should be included in the book regardless of your anecdotal experiences.

Their usefulness being determined by what, other peoples' anecdotal experiences?

[Whipstitch]

Yep. Your anecdotal experience in real life has no bearing on the anecdotal experiences I've had in game. I've had a jacked in rigger outrun a security team in his Segway while he jumped into his Steel Lynx to cover his own escape. They're demonstrably useful in the setting and they already exist so there's no real reason not to include them. You haven't seen a Segway in wherever it is you live. I'm willing to bet you haven't seen Dunkelzahn either. I'll let you know when I care.

[WearzManySkins]

There are more horse mounted LEO's(Law Enforcement Officer) here in the USA than all of the Segway production since the beginning. So Synner how many horse mounted LEO's does your city have? I too can provide anecdotal experiences too.

Why should a Runner give a devil rats arse what the Arcology types use to get around in their Arcologies?

@Hermit
I know many practicing Shamans, one worked for FASA helping design the Magic Rules. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

I what things in books that a Shadowrunner uses, not toasters, microwaves, HD TV's, Segways, Emotitoys, Nuclear Power Submarines, yes they exist how many GM's are running SeaQuest Shadowrun?

Bunny ears on your steel Lynx? how many times do you take your Steel Lynx to meet your Mr. Johnson/Fixer? Must be game with a abit more power than I have seen.

WMS

[hermit]

Yep. Your anecdotal experience in real life has no bearing on the anecdotal experiences I've had in game. I've had a jacked in rigger outrun a security team in his Segway while he jumped into his Steel Lynx to cover his own escape.

Good for you. I as a GM would propably have had OpFor take shots on the rigger on the segway. Because, you know, I'm not as nice as your GM seems to be. Sniper rifles are a fun thing to keep players ont heir toes, you know.

They're demonstrably useful in the setting and they already exist so there's no real reason not to include them.

So are tanks, so ... what would be your point again?

[Spike]

Two points: Those damn things are are used in the local mall, where they excel. We might laugh a bit at them, because they do look and sound silly to us, but by 2070 those damn things have been around since many SHadowrunner's grandparents time. Things look less silly when you've been seeing them since infancy.

Second: So what if no Shadowrunner would be caught dead in one. This is something that the security corp types WOULD be using, thus it's something they are likely to run into all the time. See too action movies, where maybe the good guy, for whatever reason, finds himself chasing/running away on something uncool... like a golf cart... or a kids bicycle, or... maybe.. just maybe... a segway.

[hermit]

This is something that the security corp types WOULD be using, thus it's something they are likely to run into all the time.

Yes, they put Armour 20 and pintle-mounted machine guns onto them and use them instead of tanks, I imagine ...

[Synner]

There are more horse mounted LEO's(Law Enforcement Officer) here in the USA than all of the Segway production since the beginning. So Synner how many horse mounted LEO's does your city have? I too can provide anecdotal experiences too.

We had a GNR (paramilitarized police like the Italian or the Irish Garda) regiment (250 horses) but they're all being cycled out for golf-carts, on the simple reasoning

Same is happening in London and Madrid (though in both of those horseguards are being maintained for cerimonial purposes). Tokyo Police was considering placing a huge order for Segways for their traffic division. Those are just municipalities, shopping malls, urban parks, big logisitics depos, ports, etc are looking at PMVs for quick and practical internal transportation.

Why should a Runner give a devil rats arse what the Arcology types use to get around in their Arcologies?

Because, you know, you might find yourself trying to extract someone or something from an arcology, an arkobloc, or an undersea habitat on foot while the guys giving chase are on segways (or god forbid spider-rigged and lightly armored versions of these things that leave them free to shoot at you).

I what things in books that a Shadowrunner uses, not toasters, microwaves, HD TV's, Segways, Emotitoys, Nuclear Power Submarines, yes they exist how many GM's are running SeaQuest Shadowrun?

If you don't see the usefulness of emotitoys and segways for shadowrunners and their opponents, there are others who obviously do and appreciate their inclusion.

This is something that the security corp types WOULD be using, thus it's something they are likely to run into all the time.

Yes, they put Armour 20 and pintle-mounted machine guns onto them and use them instead of tanks, I imagine ...

They don't need to be armored or carry machine guns, just like the rentacops using them won't be corporate special forces. If you chose to mod them that way you potentially could, doesn't mean the corps will be doing it.

For the record: the maximum (normal) armor a Segway can be modified to possess is all of 4 (I'm getting the increasing impression you didn't really read the Armor modding rules very closely particularly the part that caps the Armor at Body x2)

[Squinky]

I love the book, love it dearly.

But the glass cutter on pg. 62 bugs me (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

You can't cut glass like in the movies, it expands and a suction cup wont work like that.

[hermit]

They don't need to be armored or carry machine guns, just like the rentacops using them won't be corporate special forces. If you chose to mod them that way you potentially could, doesn't mean the corps will be doing it.

I just have a bit of a hard time imagining the things not immediatly toppling when the gun's fired, though rules say it's ok. That and the Highwind are soem fo the absurdities the vehicle modding system makes possible and that just rub me the wrong way.

[Mäx]

Yes, they put Armour 20 and pintle-mounted machine guns onto them and use them instead of tanks, I imagine ...

could you please tell me how you but that in them with the modding rules. Becouse i'm pretty sure max you can get with a weaponmount is armor 4. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/read.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/proof.gif)

[JongWK]

The local rentacops are patrolling the place in Segways too, and this is the ass-end of Europe. I've got friends in Madrid, Barcelona, and Rome that tell me they're starting to be picked up there too. So you'll all pardon if I'm not the least bit skeptical about this kind of vehicle being in common use in enclosed environments and habitats.

They also popped up here in Uruguay. I work inside a Free Trade Zone, where a company has been promoting them as a tool for private security companies.

[Synner]

I just have a bit of a hard time imagining the things not immediatly toppling when the gun's fired, though rules say it's ok. That and the Highwind are soem fo the absurdities the vehicle modding system makes possible and that just rub me the wrong way.

As my comment above about the limits on armor suggests, I think there may some misunderstandings or misreadings at play here.

Furthermore a lot of your complaints seem to boil down to personal opinions and preferences, rather than verifiable problems with mechanics. If you were to constructively list some of your problems rather than ranting that stuff is crap, I for one would be much more inclined to take your opinions on board (You could start by telling me what the Highwind is?).

Personally, I think this is the best iteration of the Shadowrun vehicle and weapon modding rules and the one with the least inconsistencies and loopholes—though they are by no means perfect and there will be the odd mistake. For instance, I am aware that the Sensors are confusing as currently written and there will be a clarification in an upcoming FAQ—they do not however require errata.

[hermit]

could you please tell me how you but that in them with the modding rules. Becouse i'm pretty sure max you can get with a weaponmount is armor 4.

Really? I figured armour takes up the same slots no matter what the strength of it? Ablative takes more, but 20 is max for normal armour.

[Whipstitch]

I just have a bit of a hard time imagining the things not immediatly toppling when the gun's fired, though rules say it's ok. That and the Highwind are soem fo the absurdities the vehicle modding system makes possible and that just rub me the wrong way.

This is getting old. You're not reading the book, for one thing, since you keep throwing out absurd amounts of armor and don't seem to notice that the Segway stabilizes via a gyroscope and could be easily modified to have smart wheels. The gyroscope thing isn't some weird science fiction either, the Segways that are around today have gyroscopes, since the entire pitch behind the thing is that it's upright and self-balancing so it doesn't take up much space.

[Synner]

could you please tell me how you but that in them with the modding rules. Becouse i'm pretty sure max you can get with a weaponmount is armor 4.

Really? I figured armour takes up the same slots no matter what the strength of it? Ablative takes more, but 20 is max for normal armour.

You have obviously figured wrong. As I noted above I'm pretty sure you missed this:

The maximum armor rating of each armor type a vehicle can have is twice its Body rating (or three times its Body rating for drones of the micro, mini, small, medium, and large size)