Arsenal review, What are your thoughts? Options

[DocTaotsu]

Yeah a claymore does feel like it's missing.

[Jaid]

Bangalore is'nt even used in our time anymore,was replaced by MCLC Mine Clearing Line Charge. An updated version of the old Bangalore. I like the future of current mine tech, wired mesh network, smart, "self healing" can move to replace detonated mines theres a thread here on DS about giving a minefield a persona for laughs. Nothing like a suicidal mine field with a dark sense of humor.

And of course the infamous claymore, requested more then once over the years by several different players in my groups, staple of action and war movies and just always expected to see it covered in SR. I've never been able to houserule it to the satisfaction of players involved and wish I had canon stats to reference for them.

if you set up an explosive to blow up a barrier, it turns said barrier into flechette-style projectiles in the direction the barrier was before it was turned into flechette (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

so you just make a 'frame' with the barrier already attached (the barrier being metal filled with ball bearings, as i understand it, probably having a really low barrier rating) and then you just detonate the explosive in the usual method.

does that help?

[Prime Mover]

Dug out cannon companion and made copy of mine rules to toss in my 4e box. Works for all I'm looking for pretty much.

[hobgoblin]

Nothing like a suicidal mine field with a dark sense of humor.

heh, i can see it now. a carrot chewing rabbit shows up on AR, "whats up, chummer?"...

[hobgoblin]

if you set up an explosive to blow up a barrier, it turns said barrier into flechette-style projectiles in the direction the barrier was before it was turned into flechette (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

so you just make a 'frame' with the barrier already attached (the barrier being metal filled with ball bearings, as i understand it, probably having a really low barrier rating) and then you just detonate the explosive in the usual method.

does that help?

or basically double the range of the explosive effect in one specific direction.

thats one thing i like about the explosive effects in SR4, now it can recreate (as much as the SR rules can recreate anything) the effect of stuffing some explosives into a bag alongside some boxes of nails (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Umbra]

Using the semi-rambling method:

Don't like: How you have to constantly jump back and forth between the weapon's/vehicle's description and it's stats. Often 2-4 pages would separate the two.

Don't like: More information about the already existing upgrades for vehicles from the main rulebook would have been nice, it seems to me that the Banshee used to be an armed military LAV, now it doesn't carry any weapons until modified aftermarket.

Don't like: That the number of weapon mounts allowed for a vehicle or drone is Body divided by three rounded up. One divided by three rounded up is one. I'm thinking a Drone the size of my hand is a little small to be putting a Concealed Fixed Weapon mount with a LMG and underbarreled grenade launcher onto.

Don't like: Why do smart tires slow down your vehicle and having 20 points of armor on your Westwind doesn't?

Like: How easy it is to make a walker, tracked, or hovercraft version of most any vehicle. If I need a special version of any of those vehicle types I can make up a brand and model name and be ready with a new vehicle in a few minutes.

Don't like: Preinstalled upgrades are free when it comes to slots, I'd feel better with them being half price or something, but it seems odd that you can cram 6 more points of upgrades into a weapon that already has twice the upgrades you could fit into it if you had to start with a base model weapon. All my players will probably only ever use the same one or two base weapons per type because otherwise they're only getting 1/3rd as good of a weapon.

Don't like: No jet-packs, even though I know the blanket range of six hours operation time for all vehicles would have been a bit excessive. I think LAVs should have a operation time of only 3 hours considering their horrible fuel consumption rate in previous version of Shadowrun.

Don't like: No minimum speed for fixed wing aircraft. I'd like to know their stall speeds for when they try to pick up their returning drones etc.

Don't like: No Crew or passenger space information. I'd also really like to know how many people a Citymaster carries.

Like: That you can't use a Suppressor and a Gas vent at the same time.

Don't like: That the maximum armor for vehicles is 20. I can understand that it's the maximum that a Nanofax can produce or something. But there has to be a point where a heavy tank doesn't have to be afraid that the Barret with AV ammo only needs to 2 hits on it's attack to penetrate it armor.

Don't like: Nothing about if damage from a Full-Autofire upgraded grenade launcher is handled like normal Full-Autofire, or if each grenade does separate damage similar to how the Fleche Hail Barrage Rocket Launcher works.

Don't like: how a Barret with EX explosive ammuntion is now better than an Assault Cannon, and silenced as well.

Like: Reduced encumberance for custom fitted armor. I hated having to give an Agility & Reaction penalty to most NPC's for wearing anything heavier than an armored vest.

Don't like: That even if you don't use the option custom fitted armor rule, that an Armor Jacket, + Full Form Fitting Body Armor, + the PPP armor set (not including the helmet) gives an armor rating of 16B/12I and no penalty to Agility or Reaction if they have a body of 6. Milspec armor is barely better and not concealeable as normal clothing.

Just a question: does adding a under barreled grenade launcher to a LMG now make it larger than LMG sized for the purposes of weapon mounts and reinforced weapon mounts? Is the Armtech MGL-6's description of it being a pistol make it say... Machine pistol or SMG sized for the purposes of concealability?

Don't like: If you took the time to create all the Outfit component style armors, why not make it so you could wear a shirt from one style, and a pair of pants from another? with each set pretty much only having the option of which of two jackets/coats you want to wear they might as well not have been component armor outfits after all.

Like: Enough weapons and vehicles to inspire me, that when I make up some of my own from scratch, I have a rough idea how much to price them at. I got guns from Cyberpunk and Ghost in the Shell that need plagiarizing... I mean researching...

Like: That not all forms of recoil reduction stack with each other.

Like: Prices for drugs, poisons, and manatech!

Don't like: Concealability still not a stat for weapons. One extra row of information would have been convenient.

Don't like: Poor organization of vehicles at the end of the book. Why is the MiG-67 listed as a LAV, and the GMC Banshee listed as a VTOL/VSTOL? shouldn't they both be LAVs? The purpose of most drones is listed in parenthesis after the name of each drone... (Humanoid Walker, etc.) the purpose of too many of them is simply being (Large). And you left out all of the Anthroform Drones except the Manservant in the back of the book.

Like: great upgrades like "Pimped Ride" and "Self Destruct Termination System".

Like: That the Thunderstruck is more cool than effective. brand new technology rarely is as good as we think it should be... Yet...

Don't like: That Fixed, Flexible, and Turret weapon mounts all cost the same number of "weapon mount spaces" I can't get over thinking that a vehicle that can barely mount 2 external fixed LMG's shouldn't also barely mount 2 Concealable Turret LMG's instead. I know the second took more upgrade slots, but I still think it's oversimplified to the point of creating silly combinations.

Don't like: That the Security Spacesuit doesn't have a restricted Availability. It's better armor than SWAT armor.

Question: Does the Fire Resistance Enhancement for Armor help protect you from a Laser like Radiation Shielding does? None/Half/Full?


In the end, I'm still happy with the book, but after all the waiting for the book to come out I was disapointed more times that I was with the equivalent books from previous editions. (In relation to the existing rules at the time.)


- Umbra
Still trying to find a elf-poser magician with masking so I can test my "stun-elf" spell on him. If it doesn't work, then my theory about a Slay Insect Spirit spell should be able to kill even the undetectable ones...

[Mäx]

Don't like: That even if you don't use the option custom fitted armor rule, that an Armor Jacket, + Full Form Fitting Body Armor, + the PPP armor set (not including the helmet) gives an armor rating of 16B/12I and no penalty to Agility or Reaction if they have a body of 6. Milspec armor is barely better and not concealeable as normal clothing.

I really don't think that combination is concealeable as normal clothing becouse that must be really silly looking combination and full body FFBA truly is full body, meaning it comes with cloves,boots and a hood. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[hobgoblin]

Don't like: That the number of weapon mounts allowed for a vehicle or drone is Body divided by three rounded up. One divided by three rounded up is one. I'm thinking a Drone the size of my hand is a little small to be putting a Concealed Fixed Weapon mount with a LMG and underbarreled grenade launcher onto.

"common sense" should take effect if someone tries that...

yes, i know that people will try anything if the rules allow it in word, even if the spirit of it just askes for a person to be bonked on the head with the book...

even national laws, written over hundreds of years, cant cover everything...

[hobgoblin]

I really don't think that combination is concealeable as normal clothing becouse that must be really silly looking combination and full body FFBA truly is full body, meaning it comes with cloves,boots and a hood. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

also, i have the distinct impression that the PPP goes on the outside of anything else your wearing.

[Moon-Hawk]

Don't like: That even if you don't use the option custom fitted armor rule, that an Armor Jacket, + Full Form Fitting Body Armor, + the PPP armor set (not including the helmet) gives an armor rating of 16B/12I and no penalty to Agility or Reaction if they have a body of 6. Milspec armor is barely better and not concealeable as normal clothing.

Not that it changes your point much, but I'm pretty sure that with a Body of 6 and FFBA3 and PPP and other armor the best you can get without encumbrance is 15/13, not 16/12.

also, i have the distinct impression that the PPP goes on the outside of anything else your wearing.

Nope. Under the main heading for PPP armor it says that all PPP comes in three styles, and one of those styles is a concealable version designed to be worn under clothing. At that point, who even cares what the other styles are?

[crizh]

Don't like: That the number of weapon mounts allowed for a vehicle or drone is Body divided by three rounded up. One divided by three rounded up is one. I'm thinking a Drone the size of my hand is a little small to be putting a Concealed Fixed Weapon mount with a LMG and underbarreled grenade launcher onto.

You could do that with a Bust-a-Move and call it a Bust-a-Capinyoass.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

[BlueMax]

Guts Page 74. Where is the cost and avail?

[Umbra]

Armor Jacket: 8/6.
Full Form Fitting Body Armor: 6/2 but only counts as 3/1 for the purposes of encumberance.
PPP armor set not including helmet: 2/4 may be worn under clothing.
Encumberance value total: 13/11, Body of 6x2=12 (13-12=1) 1 point of encumberance is not enough to receive a penalty.

I did interpret the description of the hood being an add-on as "you don't get an addition to armor if you wear it" rather than "you must wear it of you get no armor from the entire set" I suppose that was a holdover from the first 3 edition's view that no armor over the head made a difference unless it mentioned how much more armor you got for wearing it. looking cool without having to wear a noggin-pot is free like in D&D. I don't mind enforcing the must wear hood to get armor bonus. but then what is the armor bonus if you chose to not wear the gloves and hood? Just the 4/1 of the half suit?

and on the subject of common sense. I'm disappointed that not enough of it seemed to used in the making of some allowed combinations.

I don't mind that you can wear SWAT armor, full Form fitting, and full PPP (and Gel Packs) for an armor rating of 23B/21I, because I only see trolls with a body of 11 being able to wear the modern equivalent of cast iron platemail.

Until I come up with a better house rule... Well, I don't know what to do yet until I come up with a house rule in the first place.

- Umbra
Did they really mean to say you can put a PPP helmet on under your SWAT helmet?

[Nightwalker450]

Encumberance value total: 13/11, Body of 6x2=12 (13-12=1) 1 point of encumberance is not enough to receive a penalty.

Thats where the discrepency is. Its for every 2 points or less they are over their max that they take encumberance. So 1 point is enough to apply a penalty, the next will be at 3 over.

[Umbra]

Thats where the discrepency is. Its for every 2 points or less they are over their max that they take encumberance. So 1 point is enough to apply a penalty, the next will be at 3 over.

Ok, missed that a dozen time in a row over the last year. 20% fixed. I like the book better already.
(Of course now it's just Armor Jacket, FFBA Half Suit, and PPP w/no helmet for 14/11 armor...)

- Umbra
How come I end up using Assault Cannons more on force 6 spirits than on armored vehicles?

[Moon-Hawk]

Did they really mean to say you can put a PPP helmet on under your SWAT helmet?

Ha! Interesting observation. I'm pretty sure that was not the intention.

I rule FFBA3 as not requiring the hood, gloves, or booties. They're there if you want them, but if not they don't affect the armor value. The only time it could possibly make a difference (in my game) is if someone, say, grabs an electric fence and wants to know if their non-conductivity installed in their FFBA helps. Then I might reply with, "Well, were you wearing your gloves and booties?" I would not downgrade FFBA3-sans-hood/gloves/booties down to FFBA2, FFBA3 is still covering more. But I would have very little ground to argue with a GM who did think it should be treated as FFBA2, it's just my personal opinion.
Besides, requiring the hood and booties is just punishing my players for wanting pink mohawks, and I try not to do that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[nathanross]

I rule FFBA3 as not requiring the hood, gloves, or booties. They're there if you want them, but if not they don't affect the armor value. The only time it could possibly make a difference (in my game) is if someone, say, grabs an electric fence and wants to know if their non-conductivity installed in their FFBA helps. Then I might reply with, "Well, were you wearing your gloves and booties?" I would not downgrade FFBA3-sans-hood/gloves/booties down to FFBA2, FFBA3 is still covering more. But I would have very little ground to argue with a GM who did think it should be treated as FFBA2, it's just my personal opinion.
Besides, requiring the hood and booties is just punishing my players for wanting pink mohawks, and I try not to do that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Since the gloves and booties (god I love the way that sounds) rarely have a need to be taken off, I have never had to come up with a -X/-X to the overall armor rating for them. The hood however I houseruled at -1/-1. You might do a -1/0 for both gloves and booties being taken off, or just not worry about them as the area they cover is so small.

As for stacking armor, I just go with what seems right. FFBA under anything is pretty logical. FFBA + PPP + Hardened Military Grade + Armor jacket just gets a bit absurd. I try to stick with just FFBA and one thing on top of it (usually chameleon suit).

[Shinobi Killfist]

Guts Page 74. Where is the cost and avail?

Anyone know the answer to this, fear is my nemesis. I am about to put a initiate grade and the magic point into iron will just for helping me resist fear. I'd much rather have some doses of Guts hooked up to some bio-monitor and a auto-doc so I get injections when my pulse etc. makes me look like I'm peeing myself.

[Wesley Street]

I liked the book. I liked the segway. I really liked the emotitoy stats. I was wondering how Itchy & Scracthy-Land-style themepark drones could be handled and there's my answer. Yay!

[Ed_209a]

I like the book, but I don't think they had a firearm enthusiast on the editing staff.

And if you haven't noticed the size of the weapon lists, it's a gunhead game.

[Nightwalker450]

Since the gloves and booties (god I love the way that sounds) rarely have a need to be taken off, I have never had to come up with a -X/-X to the overall armor rating for them. The hood however I houseruled at -1/-1. You might do a -1/0 for both gloves and booties being taken off, or just not worry about them as the area they cover is so small.

As for stacking armor, I just go with what seems right. FFBA under anything is pretty logical. FFBA + PPP + Hardened Military Grade + Armor jacket just gets a bit absurd. I try to stick with just FFBA and one thing on top of it (usually chameleon suit).

Current concept I'm working on is FFBA + PPP, and thats it he's going to be wearing for armor. I've thought about getting a Long coat just to throw over everything (It'll put a -2 penalty on him since his body's only going to be at 3) and get the concealability, when he's not doing the stealth ninja thing. FFBA works very well as the stealth armor, and PPP to help him in his unarmed combats. PPP that goes under clothing I'm assuming goes over FFBA.

[Jaid]

Anyone know the answer to this, fear is my nemesis. I am about to put a initiate grade and the magic point into iron will just for helping me resist fear. I'd much rather have some doses of Guts hooked up to some bio-monitor and a auto-doc so I get injections when my pulse etc. makes me look like I'm peeing myself.

looks like it's missing in the consolidated table as well as the table on page 76. i'd say submit it as errata.

[Nightwalker450]

Retractable Climbing Claws... Do these get installed in both hands when you get them? Having only one hand doesn't seem well balanced for climbing, and if you had to get them seperate for both hands wouldn't that give you a +4 on climbing? Also as I'm looking I'm planning on getting stacked bonuses by putting them in a pair of Raptor Legs as well as my hands. So if I had to equip each limb seperately that would be +8 climbing bonuses!

I'm thinking right now that Retractable Climbing Claws go on both hands with one payment.

[ElFenrir]

Hmm...im still trying to figure out why Hardliner Gloves are considered Exotic Weapons.

I suppose if i wanted to, you know, glue them to my face and smash it into people for my main attack it could be, but my fist doesn't loot THAT exotic. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[DocTaotsu]

If players choose not to wear gloves, booties, brain bucket, I let them keep the armor bonus.

I also expect them not to bitch when that burst of LMG fire "only" gives them 3P damage and blows off the third and fourth digits on their right hand.

What? Oh you wanted to look cool! Well you still do, you just need to shoot offhand. Maybe next time you'll wear the armor you paid for.