Arsenal review, What are your thoughts? Options

[Spike]

THIS is why I didn't want to bother responding to your assertion.

Well, when there's no statistical difference between an assault rifle and a submachine gun besides the SMG having reduced range, lethality and penetration, why would you take it? For a shadowrunner it's a bit different, you can conceal an SMG, but for anyone who can afford the luxury of an overt operation, there's just no reason to bother according to the shadowrun rules.

I love how you just handwave away everything that you think doesn't matter. Shadowrunners are not military forces, normally, and have to worry about things like concealability or even, yes, availability. And yes, the assault rifle is objectively better if you just look at numbers. What's your point?

When you're dealing with humans, yes, getting hit with a 40mm grenade is gonna be just as lethal as getting hit with an m67, but what about situations that aren't dealing with the frail human anatomy? By your line of reasoning, an HMG should do just as much damage as a 12 gauge, afterall, both kill humans just fine, so why differentiate based on the fact that .50 bmg has something to the tune of 11,000 more foot-pounds of muzzle energy. The reason to differentiate is simple: because they're different.

Since Grenades were designed to kill humans, I fail to see what your point is. Are you trying to kill buildings with grenades suddenly? What does this really have to do with the difference between launched and thrown grenades? Have you forgotten that your entire point that I was refuting was that launched grenades make thrown grenades obsolete and unnecessary?

Launched grenades and hand grenades are very different animals with very different roles.

Exactly. Why the hell are you even trying to claim that thrown grenades are rendered obsolete if you get this point that I and others have been trying to render unto you?

In Shadowrun, a grenade launcher is pretty well always better to carry than a hand grenade, especially considering launched grenades have all the functions of normal hand grenades.

Lets look at this seriously. In Shadowrun, an urban game of underworld freelance criminals who are probably outnumbered and out geared by the people they commit their crimes against, carrying around a grenade launcher (a device whose sole purpose is to throw out explosive death at long range) is 'better' to carry than one or two smaller, more portable, and versatile 'emergency' grenades? SHadowrunners regularly engage opponents in open warfare now at extreme ranges? Seriously? Wow. I mean, that's just the tip of the iceberg, really, next you'll be telling me they need a citymaster to go buy beer after the run, seeing as how safe the streets are around here....

The fragmentation grenade in Shadowrun has at most a casualty radius of 11 meters, that's the point where it's down to it's last box of damage. The m67 has a casualty radius of 15 meters and a kill radius of 5 with fragments going as far as 230 meters, that's a fairly significant drop in lethality.

Great. You're comparing thrown real grenades against thrown game grenades. Please explain how this has any relevance to your point (again) that launched grenades render thrown grenades obsolete? I already know (and in fact pointed out to you) that game guns and gear tend to be very wonky and/or weak compared to real world equivilents, because game designers are often not at all familiar with the real world devices. Imagine that. It does nothing to establish a defense of your untenable case.

[Jaid]

if i'm understanding correctly, the complaint against SR grenades is that janice (or someone?) is assuming there is no distinction between launched grenades and hand grenades also; that is, the game rules are set up such that you can throw a launcher grenade and you can launch a hand grenade.

this is not the case.

Minigrenades are specifically designed for use with grenade launchers

further, there is the assumption that minigrenades should not do as much damage as the full sized versions because they are smaller. this supposes that you could not put a higher grade of explosive into the minigrenade to make it just as explosive. if you wish to argue that you think it's silly for them to do so, that's one thing, but to say that they can't do that is just as silly.

of course, the fact that neither grenade is capable of killing someone at more than 10 (or 12) meters is unrealistic, but do you honestly want to be rolling to check for every single person within 100 meters or whatever to see if they get hit by a random bit of shrapnel? sure, it's possible, but i don't imagine it's terribly probable, and it really isn't likely to add much to the game, imo.

[Spike]

This is of course aside from my complaints with the gear in Shadowrun as a whole, which are mostly related to grenades, grenade launchers, and how the latter makes the former pointless,

This, and this alone is what I disagree with. Just to bring back to the start of the entire debate about grenades and launchers.

I view most, if not all, of Janice's defense of this statement as smoke and mirrors, misdirection, lacking substance or relavence.

But then Janice seems to be excessively fixated on numbers rather to the exclusion of all other considerations. This can suggest an awkward line of argument related to 'role vs roll' playing, but since I'd rather not go there...

This leaves me to point out that it should be faster, by the rules, to pop off with a hand grenade than to switch to your launcher, fire it, then switch back to the conventional firearm to continue a running gunfight.

To which Janice could point out that most, if not all, AR's have GL's built in by 2070 apparently, and underbarrel launchers are not all that hard to get on the street compared to just the rifle... a baffling cricumstance.

Of course, if you've loaded HE minigrenades in your launcher and a frag or, god forbid, thermal smoke is what the situation calls for, you're screwed. Unless, of course, you've got some of those 'pointless' hand grenades on your belt, where you can just grab and toss the one you need.

Yup. Totally pointless, and no way for me to realistically attack such a postion without bringing up the 'role vs roll' debate.

[Janice]

Spike 1.
Well, it doesn't matter. The primary function of an SMG in the real world isn't concealability, where in Shadowrun, that's the only differentiation aside from reduced usability. Special operations and law enforcement frequently make use of SMGs instead of assault rifles for a reason, and it isn't because they need to be able to hide them in the characteristic cyberpunk trenchcoat.

Grenades were designed to kill humans, but there are many creatures other than humans in Shadowrun. Trolls are a good example, they are significantly tougher than humans and the difference between a launched grenade and a hand grenade could play a significant role at only a difference of a few meters.

I'm trying to claim that they render them obsolete because THERE IS NO REASON TO USE A HAND GRENADE IF YOU CAN CARRY A GRENADE LAUNCHER ARE YOU BLIND?

Shadowrunners aren't the only people in the world. Sure, for a Shadowrunner carrying around a pair of grenades might be easier than carrying a GL, but for the military forces they may go against, that's not the case if the only advantage is concealability.

My point is that they wouldn't have adopted a grenade that weak as their primary hand grenade like you were trying to claim.

Jaid.
I had missed that, thank you, so they are not interchangable. That doesn't change the fact they function the exact same statistically.

Why would they? If they had better explosives they'd put better explosives in more than just mini-grenades. Mini-grenades would get more powerful and hand grenades would be proportionally more powerful.

Well that's a matter of expediency, I'll give you that.

Spike 2.
Facts are smoke and mirrors huh?

Numbers are supposed to reflect the world around them. If there's no reason to take something, you shouldn't, it's just a fact of life.

You put words in my mouth, but rifle integrated launchers are there, and with them having a 6 shot capacity, surpass dedicated launchers by a rather considerable margin, especially considering encumbrance isn't an issue in the shadowrun ruleset. A rifle integrated launcher can also be fired via smartlink, which makes even the act of shifting grip and sighting a non-concern.

Well, considering dropping a magazine with a smartlink is a free action and then reloading it a simple action vs. readying a hand grenade which is also a simple action, why wouldn't you just switch to a different magazine of grenades?

[WearzManySkins]

Interesting,. but I have a point or two.

Most of the grenade loads most of my characters carry are Smokes(various), Pepper Punch, Flash Bangs, and Flash Paks.

With a little technique one can use a "Macro" to arm hand grenades like Flash Paks and have them go off while attached to the battle harness. Also have have smokes be armed via a "Macro" then released from their place on the harness. Ie keep firing weapon, arm and drop smoke grenades at the same time.

So not all grenades are made to kill people.

Also air foil hand grenades are more "concealable" than a grenade launcher.

I have one character with a modded grenade launcher that can fire bursts, but have not yet found the right place to use that added feature yet. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

WMS

[Fortune]

I'm trying to claim that they render them obsolete because [b]THERE IS NO REASON TO USE A HAND GRENADE IF YOU CAN CARRY A GRENADE LAUNCHER ARE YOU BLIND?

Speaking of being blind (not to mention rude!), I have seen over a half a dozen uses for normal grenades that cannot be attributed to mini-grenades listed in this thread alone.

[Janice]

Speaking of being blind (not to mention rude!), I have seen over a half a dozen uses for normal grenades that cannot be attributed to mini-grenades listed in this thread alone.

disable the 5 meter safety and you can do all those with a mini-grenade

[DocTaotsu]

It boggles the mind.

So... back to Arsenal. Gauss rifles, pretty cool gear. Would it be horrifically twinky of me to provide my players with a "sniper" version of the gauss rifle? What kind of changes would make it appropriate for a sniper character?

[Spike]

Spike 1.

I'm trying to claim that they render them obsolete because THERE IS NO REASON TO USE A HAND GRENADE IF YOU CAN CARRY A GRENADE LAUNCHER ARE YOU BLIND?

No, but apparently you are. See Exhibit A.

Launched grenades and hand grenades are very different animals with very different roles.

Shadowrunners aren't the only people in the world. Sure, for a Shadowrunner carrying around a pair of grenades might be easier than carrying a GL, but for the military forces they may go against, that's not the case if the only advantage is concealability.

The military today only equips roughly one rifle per every ten with a grenade launcher. Get your head out of your fourth point of contact and stop pretending that the numbers you are looking at are the only ones available. Cost, for example, is a factor in the military. And while shadowrun has relatively attrocious encumberance rules, that extra pound or so of weight on the rifle is a factor as well, at least in real life.

My point is that they wouldn't have adopted a grenade that weak as their primary hand grenade like you were trying to claim.

No, you point has been that no one would use Hand Grenades because launched grenades are so much better. See Exhibit B:

Spike 1.

I'm trying to claim that they render them obsolete because THERE IS NO REASON TO USE A HAND GRENADE IF YOU CAN CARRY A GRENADE LAUNCHER ARE YOU BLIND?

Spike 2.
Facts are smoke and mirrors huh?

They are when they have no relevance to your point. For example, it is a fact that my car is yellow. However, knowing that proves nothing about grenade launchers in Shadowrun. That's pretty obvious. You were a bit more subtle about it, as you point out real world grenade kill radii, and compared them to shadowrun kill radii. However: proving that the writers of shadowrun didn't make a strong effort to keep grenade kill radii in line with real world kill radii proves nothing about how launchers make handgrenades obsolete.

In fact, nothing you've said has proven that. In fact, you've even contradicted that, with exhibit B above.

[Mäx]

I'm trying to claim that they render them obsolete because [b]THERE IS NO REASON TO USE A HAND GRENADE IF YOU CAN CARRY A GRENADE LAUNCHER ARE YOU BLIND?

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)
I don't know about spike, but without my classes i'm almost blind (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
But the real question is are you really that stupid or are you just being a troll.

Becouse you can't be seriously thinking that you can use a grenade launcer to perform all the nice tricks you can do with hand grenades(like for example rolling them down the stairs or droping gas/smoke grenades in your feet)

[Vivisection]

ok, here's something i can't figure out. there's a sidebar in the armor section that talks about armor modifications. there's one on that sidebar called "environmental adaptation." i cant find a decent description of it ANYWHERE. does anyone know where i can find it, or what it does/costs?

[Jaid]

ok, here's something i can't figure out. there's a sidebar in the armor section that talks about armor modifications. there's one on that sidebar called "environmental adaptation." i cant find a decent description of it ANYWHERE. does anyone know where i can find it, or what it does/costs?

SR4, page 316. it's a mod available for full body armor, adapts the armor to protect you from hot or cold environments.

[Janice]

Becouse you can't be seriously thinking that you can use a grenade launcer to perform all the nice tricks you can do with hand grenades(like for example rolling them down the stairs or droping gas/smoke grenades in your feet)

Where exactly does it specify that shadowrun mini-grenades work exactly like real world 40mm grenades? They list them with the same stats and description as hand grenades, which would imply that I could get them set to a variety of detonators, which means I could do those things. How does rolling a grenade down a flight of stairs work better than launching it down a flight of stairs and detonating it via wireless command? Also, that 5 meter safety could be disabled by a monkey, so a smoke grenade at my feet is perfectly feasible.

The military today only equips roughly one rifle per every ten with a grenade launcher. Get your head out of your fourth point of contact and stop pretending that the numbers you are looking at are the only ones available. Cost, for example, is a factor in the military. And while shadowrun has relatively attrocious encumberance rules, that extra pound or so of weight on the rifle is a factor as well, at least in real life.

Cost is a factor, but unless the rules say so, weight isn't.

[Fortune]

So, just because you choose to read shit into the rules that isn't there, and then opt to disregard common sense in totality when considering 'in-game' effects, the rules are fucked. I understand now. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

[Janice]

So, just because you choose to read shit into the rules that isn't there, and then opt to disregard common sense in totality when considering 'in-game' effects, the rules are fucked. I understand now. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

Which rules would those be? The rules for detonators are stated right at the start of the grenade section. As to weight, common sense shouldn't apply unless the rules say it applies. Houserules can be used to fix that, but that doesn't change the fact that the base ruleset is flawed. Saying otherwise would be the same as saying "I can beat the Dallas Cowboys at football, if you remove all the players except for one and then blindfold and handcuff him." it's just inaccurate.

[WearzManySkins]

Which rules would those be? The rules for detonators are stated right at the start of the grenade section. As to weight, common sense shouldn't apply unless the rules say it applies. Houserules can be used to fix that, but that doesn't change the fact that the base ruleset is flawed. Saying otherwise would be the same as saying "I can beat the Dallas Cowboys at football, if you remove all the players except for one and then blindfold and handcuff him." it's just inaccurate.

One note to potential Darwin Award Nominees.

Removing the 5 meter safety feature on any mini grenade of explosive, Flash Bang, High Explosive, and the like means that it goes boom when dropped. And I mean boom on the first bounce, not the second or third. There is no spoon and ring arming system on mini grenades, that are used in grenade launchers.

For your non explosive types of mini grenades with the safety feature removed/disarmed, any shock/drop can set them off attached to ones battle harness.

So by all means remove the 5 meter safety feature on you explosive types of mini grenades. See if you can get your character the SR4 Darwin Award. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

WMS

[Janice]

One note to potential Darwin Award Nominees.

Removing the 5 meter safety feature on any mini grenade of explosive, Flash Bang, High Explosive, and the like means that it goes boom when dropped. And I mean boom on the first bounce, not the second or third. There is no spoon and ring arming system on mini grenades, that are used in grenade launchers.

For your non explosive types of mini grenades with the safety feature removed/disarmed, any shock/drop can set them off attached to ones battle harness.

So by all means remove the 5 meter safety feature on you explosive types of mini grenades. See if you can get your character the SR4 Darwin Award. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

WMS

Except as explained at the beginning of the description for grenades, they don't have to detonate with impact. Remove the five meter safety on a mini-grenade designed to detonate on wireless command and that's not an issue.

[WearzManySkins]

Except as explained at the beginning of the description for grenades, they don't have to detonate with impact. Remove the five meter safety on a mini-grenade designed to detonate on wireless command and that's not an issue.

RAW page 313

Minigrenades are specifically designed
for use with grenade launchers (either the standard version).
They are set to arm when they have traveled 5 meters
from their point of origin and explode on impact (unless
using an airburst link, see p. 310). This safety feature can be
disabled with an Armorer + Logic (3, 5 Minutes) Extended
Test. Minigrenades have the same Cost and effects as standard
grenades.

So Sorry No Hoto Gari.

Grenades made to be hand thrown have the possible wireless link.

Airburst link
RAW page 310

Airburst Link: This grenade/rocket launcher smartgun
accessory uses the distance to the target as determined by the
rangefinder and programs the minigrenade/rocket to explode
in the air after it has traveled the target distance. This airburst
setting reduces the scatter from 3D6 to 1D6. All minigrenades/
rockets can be timed in this manner. Air-timed airburst attacks
explode in the Action Phase in which they were launched.

No wireless connection to the mini grenade.

WMS

[Janice]

Guess I was wrong. For the record, I did read it, I must have just missed that. Thank you, I concede on all points except for the fact that Shadowrun grenades are underpowered and that rifle grenades should be different from hand grenades. I'm going to go elsewhere for the time being, I've spent way too much time arguing a wrong point.

Edit: for the record, I freely admit I've made an ass of myself.

[WearzManySkins]

Guess I was wrong. For the record, I did read it, I must have just missed that. Thank you, I concede on all points except for the fact that Shadowrun grenades are underpowered and that rifle grenades should be different from hand grenades. I'm going to go elsewhere for the time being, I've spent way too much time arguing a wrong point.

Edit: for the record, I freely admit I've made an ass of myself.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) Hands Janice his personal foot in mouth tooth brush, that has a well used look to it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Then welcomes him into the private and exclusive club of arses. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I am a charter member. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

WMS

[Grinder]

As to weight, common sense shouldn't apply unless the rules say it applies.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

[Janice]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

Don't start, that's all I'm asking. If you really have a beef with that statement, take it up with messages.

[Critias]

Don't start, that's all I'm asking. If you really have a beef with that statement, take it up with messages.

Lighten up a bit. It'll help.

[Grinder]

The sentence just made me laugh. Common sense shouldn't apply? Seriously, common sense should always apply, even if it's not written in the rules. Or I'm getting your statement completly wrong.

[The Jopp]

Lets assume that the power/damage/radius of launcher/thrown grenades are the same.

Now we take a look at the main difference.

Grenade Launcher Use
Shoot Grenade  Impact Explosion
Shoot Grenade Airburst Explosion

Standard Grenade Use
Throw Grenade in enemy face  Hurts targets head  Bounce  Explosion
Throw Grenade  Bounce  Explosion
Place Grenade  Enemy approaches  Detonate by Wi-Fi
Place Grenade  Attach RFID Tag Motion Sensor  Activate after moving out of range  Enemy activates motion detector BOOM
Roll Grenade Down Stairs  Boom Below
Boobytrap Body  Medic moves body  Boom
Wear Flash-Pack on jacket  Detonate flash by Wi-Fi
Wear Smoke Grenades on jacket  Detonate by Wi-Fi to hide in smoke
Drop Grenade  Set Timer  Move away from grenade area

So, regardless of possibly damage factors a pair of standard thrown grenades have a gazillion uses.

My favourite is the following:

MK1 Starburst Smoker
Doberman
4 stun grenades
4 flash packs
4 smoke grenades

Tape everything to the hull facing in all four directions and have it run right into a group of enemies activating everything at once with one linked wireless command.

The resulting lightshow and detonations should take care of almost everything.

And the drone ignores stun damage so it will be ok.