Arsenal review, What are your thoughts? Options

[BlueMax]

Riggers are Hackers! They may specialize in vehicles, and hence have some additional skills, but they are still basically Hackers, and Hackers get shit-loads of coverage. Even more so when Unwired comes out, which is, not-so-coincidently, supposed to have a large portion dedicated to rigging-related stuff.

I don't agree. I am looking at the Drone Rigger in the BBB and I don't see any hacker skills, just gear.

I would extend the Riggers are Hackers to: Riggers are now everyone. Swap out some gear for a datajack and a VCR on the 4th ed Street Samurai and he isn't half bad fullsim behind the wheel..err controls of a Vehicle (bikes).
Is there a need for a Rigger to be a hacker?

Rigging is now an option for any character. Sure, someone can focus in it and get a few more dice early one. The upside is that everyone can participate in vehicle actions.

And more importantly, everyone benefits from what new vehicle material is presented. But nobody should depend on it anymore..

Am I the only one who is giddy because one characters initiatives and actions don't control an entire scene anymore?

[Critias]

Still, that's a lot less than any other character class gets.

This just in: reliable sources indicate there are no character classes in Shadowrun!

How much stuff do you need, that you can greedily claw at and say "Riggers only, no one else's?!" Yeah, you say you've only got two pieces of cyberware -- but so what? How much more is there that really defines what a Rigger is or what a Rigger does, to you? What else do you want, if you only grudgingly count pages full of vehicles as "Rigger stuff," in the first place?

[Cadmus]

A rigger is not defined by what you put into your body but how you percive the world and interact with it. IF I make a guy with cyber and skills ok he's desent with a gun, and he drives and uses drones. is he a well trained gun bunny? or a rigger? is he runing upto the door and kicking it in? or is he runing overwatch as a steel lynx covers the back door and two roto drones with rifles cover the street?

Its not so much how you build your char but more in how you use your char.


Well my two cents. if any one needs me I'm be back in my hole (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ninja.gif)

[hermit]

How much more is there that really defines what a Rigger is or what a Rigger does, to you? What else do you want, if you only grudgingly count pages full of vehicles as "Rigger stuff," in the first place?

- Some place where rigger rules are gathered. It's really tiresome to pry rigger relevant stuff from all sorts of chapters.
- decent vehicle modding rules. Those in arsenal stink.
- a decent selection of mods that are good for something.
- implants that somehow allow a rigger to even begin to make sense as compared to competitors (mainly technomancers, really). Meaning a way they can have 20+ DP too. Basically a way that somehow makes riggers as such interesting character concepts instead of adding rigger control cyber to some sam or hacker who might control the occasional drone on the side.
- Oh yeah: usable vehicles instead of a shitload of poorly thought out concepts would have been nice, too.

Even more so when Unwired comes out, which is, not-so-coincidently, supposed to have a large portion dedicated to rigging-related stuff.

Where'd you get the 'large' from? All I heared from devs was something along the lines of "we'll do some stuff about the rigger character type, though mostly something really useful like CCSS rigging".

[Fortune]

Add in stuff on Electronic Warfare, among other things I can't recall offhand. And the developers have let slip a couple of times that BattleTac/Tactical Computer type stuff should be included, as well as rules to use those, as well as clarification of the whole AR Bonus issue. That is, of course, if you discount the rest of the things in the book that will be useful to riggers in less obvious ways, like all the other Hacker information and Matrix stuff.

[Critias]

- Some place where rigger rules are gathered. It's really tiresome to pry rigger relevant stuff from all sorts of chapters.

Yeah. A new book, full of material we've already got. That's a great business idea!

- decent vehicle modding rules. Those in arsenal stink.

Still not asking for new material, here. Just replacement for material you don't like.

- a decent selection of mods that are good for something.

Ah...yup, still not so much "I want interesting new stuff," as "I dislike the stuff we've got."

- implants that somehow allow a rigger to even begin to make sense as compared to competitors (mainly technomancers, really). Meaning a way they can have 20+ DP too. Basically a way that somehow makes riggers as such interesting character concepts instead of adding rigger control cyber to some sam or hacker who might control the occasional drone on the side.

So you're outright demanding power creep in your book (in that you just want new toys to give you extra dice), and you're also outright admitting that "rigger" isn't so much a character class as a state of mind.

- Oh yeah: usable vehicles instead of a shitload of poorly thought out concepts would have been nice, too.

Wrapped up by, once again, not really asking for new material, just bitching about the material you've already got.

Sounds like Rigger 4: Hermit Edition wouldn't really make for a smash hit. When was the last time you knew of gamers liking a book that did nothing but make obsolete existing material, on purpose?

[hermit]

Yeah. A new book, full of material we've already got. That's a great business idea!

A table pointing to relevant sections of other books in Emergence would do too, you know, though better planning ahead, a decent rigging chapter in teh BBB and Motor Pool of course would have been much better, but aren't an option now, I SEE THAT.

So you're outright demanding power creep in your book (in that you just want new toys to give you extra dice), and you're also outright admitting that "rigger" isn't so much a character class as a state of mind.

Yes, I am (please compare what a starting 0 Karma technomancer can get in terms of dice pools to what a rigger has available), and no, I am not, the opposite: I am demanding making riggers viable as a character concept by themselves, ot as an add-on feature on a sam, decker or face.

Wrapped up by, once again, not really asking for new material, just bitching about the material you've already got.

That's on-topic then, isn't it? Or have I missed this thread was about praising Arsenal and kissing the vehicle section author's ass?

Sounds like Rigger 4: Hermit Edition wouldn't really make for a smash hit. When was the last time you knew of gamers liking a book that did nothing but make obsolete existing material, on purpose?

Not writing up such shit in the future would already do a lot of good. However, Arsenal, if you ask me, should never have been published as it is.

[Prime Mover]

I hate to even get involved in this bait and flame but I keep seeing how technomancers are better riggers then riggers are. But with sr4 can't you just play a dedicated techno rigger, killing two birds with one stone? Obviously if you wanted to keep you rigger "pure" this is'nt an option. But honestly this whole post appears as a personal crusade due to dislike of the layout of the system. So if you hate it so much , don't use it?

[hermit]

But with sr4 can't you just play a dedicated techno rigger, killing two birds with one stone?

No, because (get this!) I don't find technomancer characters in all their neo-ness appealing in the slightest. And SUPPOSEDLY, SR4 is all about offering several options to reach the same effect (bioware faces and face adepts, combat adepts and street sams, ect). Too bad this doesn't work out with mundane riggers versus technomancers, who usually have 8 to 10 more DP because of sprites and threading.

But honestly this whole post appears as a personal crusade due to dislike of the layout of the system. So if you hate it so much , don't use it?

This thread asked for peoples' opinions about arsenal. You're welcome not to agree with me, but I am just as free to give mine as all-praise fanboys are.

And I don't hate the entire system - there're some decent ideaas there, and most changes I guess I could kinda live with. Some stuff I even genuinely like. However, that neither means I will pretend to like arsenal nor spare the authors criticism when I think it is due. Again, you are welcome to disagree. Just don't expect me to shut up because of that.

[Critias]

Listen, Hermit, I'm not sure if you've got me confused with someone else, but I'm the LAST fucking person on here that should be lumped in with ass-kissing fanboys, etc. I can forward you my share of PMs from the mods (hell, I've gotten my share, and your share, and his share, and her share), and plenty of them are for arguments I got into about SR4, long before Arsenal ever saw print.

All I'm saying is releasing another book to "fix" a book that was just released is not a viable business option. You can not like Arsenal all you want. Please reread my posts, and you'll see I'm not defending it. I'm just saying this isn't a fucking video game. You can't charge people money and release a "patch" to slap a band-aid on material that people just got done paying other money for. It's a stupid thing to do, as a business, and is certainly not likely to re-endear your fan base to you.

EDIT: Once again, to clarify. I'm by no means saying "You can't say Arsenal sucks!" I'm just explaining that saying "Arsenal sucks, and they should release a book that replaces this part of it, and this part of it, and this part of the core rules, and this other part, and gives me more dice!" isn't good business.

[Angier]

@ hermit

awww c'mon. drop it. This is a game relying on your imaginative ability. And you beat the dead horse 'bout how inconvenient it is for you to actually USE your imagination? If you want to rely on games solely meant to be played out of the box play a game stripped down to the rules, like tabletops or plain d&d. But as long as there is ANY room for your own perspective there always will be divergent opinions about how things should be seen or handled.

For christ's sake you pay for the ideas of the authors involved not for not being expected to make up your own world.

Once again: If you are unable to play games which are meant to bo carried beyond their boxes, play games stripped down to the rules. Shadowrun 4 is more than that.

[hermit]

awww c'mon. drop it. This is a game relying on your imaginative ability. And you beat the dead horse 'bout how inconvenient it is for you to actually USE your imagination?

Angier, no offense meant, but please, stop that 'if you don't like it change it' sermon. I am just not willing to buy crappy products and pretend they're great. If I think a product is crap, I say that, and I also say why and where it could have been better and maybe ask for some sort of fixes in future releases. Just because that's propably not something White Wolf endorses doesn't mean I have to give a fuck, do I?

For christ's sake you pay for the ideas of the authors involved not for not being expected to make up your own world.

No. I also pay for being able to play with people in that world without endless discussions about my modifications to it. Now, maybe WoD players are more accepting there, but with most SR players, this isn't quite easy.

If you are unable to play games which are meant to bo carried beyond their boxes, play games stripped down to the rules.

Oh, I am, but I do thing a common basis concerning world and rules is better than a crap canon world that HAS to be modified to even be remotely playable (which, just so that noone gets too upset, refers to old WoD).

Listen, Hermit, I'm not sure if you've got me confused with someone else, but I'm the LAST fucking person on here that should be lumped in with ass-kissing fanboys, etc.

I wasn't referring to you at all. I was referring to people who're all "SHINEY" about arsenal in general.

All I'm saying is releasing another book to "fix" a book that was just released is not a viable business option.

And all I'm asking for is to consider this in future releases IN SOME WAY. Like I said, that reference table would already suffice.

You can't charge people money and release a "patch" to slap a band-aid on material that people just got done paying other money for.

Well, FanPro DID that for the SR4 Core Rules already. Also, there's always errata. Making simsense and rigger boosters compatible would go a long way already, for instance.

[Demonseed Elite]

If I do agree with hermit in one place, it's the criticism about some of the choices made in vehicles. When I saw a Segway-clone in the vehicles chapter, my reaction was "what the fuck?" I think novelty vehicles are something better kept for a web add-on; fill that section of the book with quintessential vehicles for the shadowrunner team and their antagonists.

[hermit]

That's my main problem with the vehicles selection, yes. Of course, pintlemount segways make not entirely much sense wither. adding modding slots as an attribute rather than based on body would have made the system a lot more sensible.

[Angier]

Angier, no offense meant, but please, stop that 'if you don't like it change it' sermon. I am just not willing to buy crappy products and pretend they're great. If I think a product is crap, I say that, and I also say why and where it could have been better and maybe ask for some sort of fixes in future releases. Just because that's propably not something White Wolf endorses doesn't mean I have to give a fuck, do I?

It's gygaxian, not white wolfish.

No. I also pay for being able to play with people in that world without endless discussions about my modifications to it. Now, maybe WoD players are more accepting there, but with most SR players, this isn't quite easy.

You don't need world shaking modifications in order to keep your character playable. The expected modifications I spoke of are meant to focus on your character. A rather narrow base for arguements. I also wasn't aware that you are proxy for any amount of SR players, whatever this faceless group of ruleset preferences, views on the canon and playstyles might be.

Oh, I am, but I do thing a common basis concerning world and rules is better than a crap canon world that HAS to be modified to even be remotely playable (which, just so that noone gets too upset, refers to old WoD).

The moment you start to play a shadowrunner involved in the made up ongoings in the shadows the canon ends and the imagination of your group starts. heck, it ends right in the moment you make up your character to take part in the "canon". What I'm trying to say is: There aren't any changes needed for the canon in order to be playable. YOU need changes in order to see the world fitting your playstyle.
That's the reason why I say you are paying for ideas.

And that's the reason why flooding all boards you know of with your sole opinion isn't the right way to alter the "canon" to better suite your wishes. All you do is discouraging those people willing to commit themselves to this product to bring in much appreciated detail because they are afraid of failing to reach the target group(s) the products are meant for. IF you want to better the quality - apply as freelance writer and try to bring your view on SR in.

In short: Ranting doesn't do any good.

Oh and please stop teasing around with the World of Darkness. This is dumpshock. "No one here" wants to know about your preferences when it comes down to playstyles and games fitting those.

And to put this right: I'm NOT defending Arsenal. I'm with you, hermit, saying that the selection of vehicles is lacking at best. But I don't like your conclusions, especially since you seem to be still on you crusade trying to prove SR4 as being inferior. A crusade I know you well too good for.

[Adam]

Oh and please stop teasing around with the World of Darkness. This is dumpshock. "No one here" wants to know about your preferences when it comes down to playstyles and games fitting those.

Admin post: Other games are not verboten topics here. Comparing and contrasting Shadowrun with other game systems, other storylines, other publishers, etc, is acceptable.

[hermit]

You don't need world shaking modifications in order to keep your character playable. The expected modifications I spoke of are meant to focus on your character. A rather narrow base for arguements. I also wasn't aware that you are proxy for any amount of SR players, whatever this faceless group of ruleset preferences, views on the canon and playstyles might be.

Well, there are people who would prefer if canon covered all relevant things and you wouldn't have to make up half the cars you'd need, for the sake of ships that, stat-wise, are wonky, and segways.

The moment you start play a shadowrunner involved in the made up ongoings in the shadows, the canon ends and the imagination of your group starts. heck, it ends right in the moment you make up your character to take part in the "canon". What I'm trying to say is: There aren't any changes needed for the canon in order to be playable.

Well yeah, if you consider a world where only wonky vehicles exist sensible ...

And that's the reason why flooding all boards you know of with your sole opinion

Oh, it isn't. Besides, I am not floding any number of boards. That this discussion was spread aboutseveral threads is because segemnts of it came up in several threads. Again, if you don't agree, fine.

All you do is discouraging those people willing to commit themselves to this product to bring in much appreciated detail because they are afraid of failing to reach the target group(s) the products are meant for. IF you want to better the quality - apply as freelance writer and try to bring your view on SR in.

That's not my intention, and besides, I am not relevant anyway, so why bother? My intention is to notify the writers of faults (in that case,s erious faults) in a part of Arsenal.

Now, maybe I should also say what I like:

- The martial arts rules are much more fun than SR3's, as I said above. Though a bit more expensive, they are much more varied and make for interesting character concepts, like a gunfighter along the lines of revy or lara croft.
- The drugs rules, taken by themselves, are fun too. Nice amount of detail there.
- The fiction, in general, is fun to read.
- The weapons section, while feeling cramped, contains all nescessary stuff and few oddities, but oddities that, for the most part, seem fun enough and still fit in.
- The gear section is pretty much what was around before. Manatech contains surprisingly little new stuff and just sums up known items in one section for the most part.
- hazardous environments are, if a bit oddly placed n that book, by themselves nicely written, though I like the SOX book radiation section better.
- Weapons modding is a bit easier than in CC back in the day, although still slightly odd. some mods make great sense, some are okay, only few really cause headaches (like the hoverjets for pistols).

Now, there it is, in much more detail than above. However, the vehicles section IS a huge drag. Though never as loudly and possibly rudely, I am far from alone in stating that, and usually for the same reasons too.

Oh and please stop teasing around with the World of Darkness. This is dumpshock. "No one here" wants to know about your preferences when it comes down to playstyles and games fitting those.

which is why you're the first to bring that up. But yes, let's just bury this and save it for privat discussions, shall we? When we can do that again, of course.

But I don't like your conclusions, especially since you seem to be still on you crusade trying to prove SR4 as being inferior. A crusade I know you well too good for.

C'me on, no attempts at character assassination, okay? It's not like we're competing for the democratic presidency ...

No, I don't prove that. I am, however, complaining about mechanisms and parts of books that don't work out well, are imbalanced in various degreees of vastness. No crusade against the systema s such. AS YOU SHOULD KNOW. After all, we've had that discussion several times already.

[Aaron]

If I do agree with hermit in one place, it's the criticism about some of the choices made in vehicles. When I saw a Segway-clone in the vehicles chapter, my reaction was "what the fuck?" I think novelty vehicles are something better kept for a web add-on; fill that section of the book with quintessential vehicles for the shadowrunner team and their antagonists.

Actually, a lot of modern police and security forces are using Segways for heavily-trafficked pedestrian areas, like malls (or maybe arcologies?). It's a great way to cover a lot of area quickly, and to beat running speed without getting winded.

[hermit]

Actually, a lot of modern police and security forces are using Segways for heavily-trafficked pedestrian areas, like malls (or maybe arcologies?). It's a great way to cover a lot of area quickly, and to beat running speed without getting winded.

Also, with 8 armour and a vinidcator'd pintle mount, they make great military support vehicles! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

Besides, I really see them being incredibly useful in areas where you can climb fences or use doors.

[Critias]

Actually, a lot of modern police and security forces are using Segways for heavily-trafficked pedestrian areas, like malls (or maybe arcologies?). It's a great way to cover a lot of area quickly, and to beat running speed without getting winded.

Yeah, but doing so flies in the face of the rule of cool. Just look at the poor bastards zipping around on those things, wearing their little shorts and then trying to compensate with ray-bans and oakleys. They're the only guys sadder looking than pedal-bike cops. You know they get razzed to hell and back in the locker rooms.

[Synner]

If I do agree with hermit in one place, it's the criticism about some of the choices made in vehicles. When I saw a Segway-clone in the vehicles chapter, my reaction was "what the fuck?" I think novelty vehicles are something better kept for a web add-on; fill that section of the book with quintessential vehicles for the shadowrunner team and their antagonists.

Consider please that PMVs are possibly the only vehicle option that can be used inside the larger arcologies and closed habitats and it makes a lot more sense to see them included. Since places like the ACHE and the Neo-Tokyo arcologies are enormous, both civilians and security forces will find them useful. Same extends to stranger places like polar arcologies and submarine arcologies/cities.

With the shift of many common-usage vehicles to the core SR4 book, I stand by the decision to make the vehicles and drones in Arsenal as diverse as possible and spotlighting subcategories/types of vehicles that haven't been seen before — as opposed to introducing more of the same types of vehicles three sedans, two limos, and four commuter cars which have almost identical stats to the ones already presented.

Don't like the sedans (and the similar models) offered? Cool, drop a point in Handling and add a point to Body and there's your very own Ford Americar Model70. Make no mistake though, functionally it is identical to the Comet and Shin-Hyung, which is why we opted to include Off-road Racing Trucks (used by smugglers and merc units) instead. I also stand by the choice to veer away from introducing even more military vehicles—if and when we do a book on the Military/Mercs, then we'll spotlight military vehicles.

Collectively SR4 and Arsenal (excluding the similar models) now include a wide variety of vehicles with diverse functions and applications:

• 2 Personal Mobility Vehicles [incl. Cart PMV, Segway]
• 9 Bikes [incl. Chopper, Monocycle (2), Off-road bike (2), Racing bike (2), Scooter]
• 8 Cars [incl. ATV, Limousine, Sedan (2), Sports car, Subcompact/Commuter (2), SUV]
• 8 Vans/Trucks [incl. Bus, Off-Road Racing Truck, Pickup Truck, RV, Transport (1), Truck(1), Van(2)]
• 2 Hovercraft [incl. Hovercraft (2)]
• 9 Boats/Subs [incl. Yachts. Sport Cruiser, MiniSub, Water Scooter, Utility Watercraft, Speedboat, Racing Hydrofoil, Yacht, Sea Sled]
• 8 Winged Planes [incl. Twin-prop Plane, Tilt Wing Plane (2), Glider (2), Very Light Jet, Executive Jet, Amphibious Jet]
• 6 Rotorcraft [incl. Cargo helicopter, Utility helicopter, Autogyro (2), FPMV, Shuttle helicopter]
• 2 VTOL/VSTOL [incl. Thunderbird (2)]
• 1 Lighter Than Air Aircraft [incl. Zeppelin (1)]
• 2 Medical Vehicles [incl. SRT Ambulance, CRT Helicopter]
• 7 Security/Military Vehicles [incl. Patrol car, Patrol hovercraft, Pursuit car, Police motorcycle, Police SUV, Prisoner transport, Riot Control Vehicle)
• 3 Security/Military Aircraft [incl. Military Helicopter, Attack Helicopter, Fighter Bomber]
• 4 Security/Military Vessels/Subs [incl. Harbor Patrol, Patrol Corvette, Submarine (2)]

That said this was never intended to be the be-all, end-all of vehicles in Shadowrun and we actually have a surprise or two in wait.

[hermit]

Well, give them pintle mounts and armour 20 and you'll see who razzes whom ... or something.

Maybe, you could put an infinite number of them (because there's no more freight room any mire!) into that shiawase cutter and mod that to floatyness! You'd have a Final Fantasy Army then! Just paint the segways yellow and pretend they look like chicken ...

as opposed to introducing more of the same types of vehicles three sedans, two limos, and four commuter cars which have almost identical stats to the ones already presented

Like the Yellowjacket and Wasp?

[Demonseed Elite]

I live in Segway-town. They are built a few miles away from me and there's been tons of pressure on local communities to find uses for them, with very little success. DEKA is a brilliant company, but they can't even give the things away to municipalities here.

I suppose they could find some use in arcologies, but I'd still think of drones as more versatile in that situation.

[hermit]

Or, you know ... feet and legs.

[Demonseed Elite]

Or, you know ... feet and legs.

Well, yeah, I was thinking in cases where feet and legs were impractical. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

But I guess I'd concede the point if people use them. I just don't think I'd ever use them in my games.