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Lord Ben
post Mar 19 2008, 03:43 AM
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At character creation can I simply ignore all my magic rating and not buy it and only buy cyberware? Or if I spend 4 points on cyber do I need to buy magic up and then lower it again?
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Glyph
post Mar 19 2008, 04:02 AM
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For each point or partial point of Essence lost, you lose a point of Magic. Yes, you have to buy the Magic first, then lose points from it when you get cyberware and/or bioware. As a good rule of thumb, in SR4, it is usually not worth it to have more than 1, or at most 2 points of Essence loss from 'ware.

In SR3, it was easier. You could take geasa to offset the Magic loss from 'ware, a Power Focus added its rating directly to your Magic Attribute, and Magic actually didn't matter that much unless you were casting spells with a Force over your Magic rating (and you could take fetish or exclusive limitations to spells to lower their effective Force for Drain purposes, too).

In SR4, you can take geasa as negative qualities but they don't offset Magic loss, Power Foci only add bonus dice, fetish limitations to spells only add Drain resistance dice, and every point of Magic matters because it is part of your dice pool.
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Lord Ben
post Mar 19 2008, 04:08 AM
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Even if I don't plan on actually starting with magic I have to buy it up? I can't decide to just have zero? Crappy...
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Jaid
post Mar 19 2008, 04:14 AM
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QUOTE (Lord Ben @ Mar 18 2008, 11:08 PM) *
Even if I don't plan on actually starting with magic I have to buy it up? I can't decide to just have zero? Crappy...

if that's the case, you want latent awakening, quality found in street magic.
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Glyph
post Mar 19 2008, 04:20 AM
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QUOTE (Jaid @ Mar 18 2008, 08:14 PM) *
if that's the case, you want latent awakening, quality found in street magic.


Yeah, that would fit that concept best. the GM decides how the character awakens, but you might be able to talk it over with your GM if you want to awaken as a specific type of character (mage, adept, etc.). When it happens, you start out with a Magic of 1, and your Essence loss only affects your maximum rating for Magic. You do have to spend Karma on the quality you get at the time, though (you have to buy the mage, adept, etc. quality).
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Sponge
post Mar 19 2008, 04:48 AM
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QUOTE (Lord Ben @ Mar 19 2008, 12:08 AM) *
Even if I don't plan on actually starting with magic I have to buy it up? I can't decide to just have zero? Crappy...


If your Magic ever hits 0 (barring being pre-Latent Awakening), you forever lose your ability to do Magic.

DS
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Fortune
post Mar 19 2008, 04:49 AM
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Take the Latent Awakening Quality (and leave enough BP available to buy your desired Awakened Quality minus 5, plus any BP required to raise Magic if desired), then after chargen is almost completed, in the 'Finishing Touches' section, declare that you have Awakened as a _______, and then proceed from there. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Or just handwave the stupid bullshit and just pay for the Magic points that you actually get, and rule that Essence Loss (at chargen) merely lowers your maximum Magic rating.
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Cardul
post Mar 19 2008, 10:05 AM
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QUOTE (Fortune @ Mar 18 2008, 11:49 PM) *
Or just handwave the stupid bullshit and just pay for the Magic points that you actually get, and rule that Essence Loss (at chargen) merely lowers your maximum Magic rating.


Wow..is that really THAT common a house rule? You know what I always believed when there is a House Rule everyone uses? "Why isn't it in the book?!" Actually, I am surprised the play testers did not catch that..Why? because, if you stop and think about it:

Your Maximum Magic is your Essence(rounded down)+Initiation Grades. So, I put in 1 point of Cyberware, my maximum Magic is 5. I raise my magic to 5, but then I lose 1 point of magic for the cyberware, so I pay the 55 points for Magic 5, but end up with Magic 4. I cannot have magic 5, because I cannot buy my magic to 6, because you cannot buy an attribute above its maximum. If you get 3 points of Cyberware on a mage by that rule, you are an automatic burn out at chargen, by the RAW.
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Fortune
post Mar 19 2008, 10:28 AM
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I just automatically do things that way (which is basicaally just using the Latent Awakeneing rules) unless specifically directed not to do so. As far as I am concerned it is the only thing that makes sense. If needed, justification can be gained by looking at the way metahumans purchase their penalized Attributes in SR4. They are not made to pay an actually BP penalty, but instead have a lowered Attribute Maximum. In my opinion, it should work the very same way with Magic.
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Larsine
post Mar 19 2008, 11:48 AM
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QUOTE (Lord Ben @ Mar 19 2008, 05:08 AM) *
Even if I don't plan on actually starting with magic I have to buy it up? I can't decide to just have zero? Crappy...


If you don't intend to play a mage, they you won't have any magic at all, and thus you won't lose any magic when your essence is reduced.

So if you don't plan on actually start with magic, then you don't have to buy it up.

It's only people who have a quality that gives them 1 point of magic, that will loose points of magic when essence is reduced.

If only that character creation rules was streamlined it wouldn't have been a problem.

According to the RAW you should do it it this order:
1) Choose metatype
2) Purchase attributes
3) Acquire skills
4) Qualities
5) Assigning resources
6) Finishing touches

But several qualities (4) will affect youre attributes (2) and your skills (3). Assigning resources (5) will also affect your attributes (2). And even the order with in "Assigning resources" will force your to go back in the sam section to change thing you have previously finished.

That section of the BBB should have been done in a much more streamlined way.

Lars
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Grinder
post Mar 19 2008, 12:05 PM
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QUOTE (Fortune @ Mar 19 2008, 05:49 AM) *
Or just handwave the stupid bullshit and just pay for the Magic points that you actually get, and rule that Essence Loss (at chargen) merely lowers your maximum Magic rating.


Weird. That's how we're doing it since the first read-through of the SR4 main book.

Wonder if Synner & Co. will inlcude that as an optional rule into the Compendium.
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Eyeless Blond
post Mar 19 2008, 12:09 PM
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So you think it should have been:

1) Choose metatype
2) Qualities
3) Assigning resources
4) Purchase attributes
5) Acquire skills
6) Finishing touches

then? ....yeah, I can see that.
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CircuitBoyBlue
post Mar 19 2008, 01:01 PM
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When I made my cybered SR4 shaman, I was under the impression that geasa still offset magic loss. It was a bit of a shock when we started playing, and I discovered my magic attribute was half what I thought it would be. Still, his geasa are awesome, so I can't complain too much.

I had wanted to houserule exactly what Fortune was saying, but the mundanes in the group shot it down. They're all new to SR, and this is my first SR4 game, so we decided we should keep houserules to a minimum until we're actually familiar with the system.
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Eyeless Blond
post Mar 19 2008, 03:11 PM
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Er, Street Magic still lets you geas magic loss; you just don't take it as a Negative Quality. Check the section on crisis-es (crises?) of confidence, and acquiring geasea during play.
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swirler
post Mar 19 2008, 03:50 PM
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so basically it's a matter of whether or not "lost essence" comes off the 'top' or the 'bottom'?
top = reduces your maximum magic potential
bottom = automatically reduces the magic you have, or hampers it.

If any essence hit takes it off the top during play then it should also do it during chargen. I mean sure this will be the first time you play this character but it isn't the first day they were born.

right?
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Fortune
post Mar 19 2008, 03:53 PM
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Essence (Magic) loss from implants cannot be Geased in SR4.
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Fortune
post Mar 19 2008, 04:01 PM
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QUOTE (swirler @ Mar 20 2008, 02:50 AM) *
If any essence hit takes it off the top during play then it should also do it during chargen.


Why? Metahumans don't have to pay for their reduced Attributes at chargen. And in-game progression differs from chargen (Karma vs BP and graduated progression vs. flat cost).
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swirler
post Mar 19 2008, 04:04 PM
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QUOTE (Fortune @ Mar 19 2008, 10:01 AM) *
Why? Metahumans don't have to pay for their reduced Attributes at chargen. And in-game progression differs from chargen (Karma vs BP and graduated progression vs. flat cost).

my point was right after that
why should the rules change after they become PCs?
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Fortune
post Mar 19 2008, 04:20 PM
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I answered that exact point, and even gave other examples of where the rules differ in implementation between chargen and in-game.
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CircuitBoyBlue
post Mar 19 2008, 04:22 PM
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My problem is with paying for attributes that you don't get. Metahumans don't get reduced attributes at chargen, just reduced maximums. If you take magic up to 6 before knocking it down to 3, that's 45 BP you just blew on magic points you don't actually get.

I'm kind of glad to hear you can't geas magic loss from implants, though. If you could, and I took a hit on 3 points of magic for nothing, I'd be annoyed.
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Mr. Unpronouncea...
post Mar 19 2008, 04:24 PM
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QUOTE (Fortune @ Mar 19 2008, 05:49 AM) *
Or just handwave the stupid bullshit and just pay for the Magic points that you actually get, and rule that Essence Loss (at chargen) merely lowers your maximum Magic rating.


Is it time for another round of "Wah! Mages are too powerful because of (broken houserule)! How can I nerf them into unplaybility?" already?
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Fortune
post Mar 19 2008, 04:34 PM
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Not from me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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Feshy
post Mar 19 2008, 04:39 PM
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Cardul brings up a point I hadn't thought of before.

If you have no cyber, and want a magic of 5, it is 40 BP. If instead you have e.g. 1 essence of cyber, that brings your maximum magic rating down to 5. If you want a magic of 5 at chargen, is that 40 BP or 55 BP? The later makes sense (although it double penalizes magicians at chargen, IMHO) but I don't think any of the chargen spreadsheets take this into account...
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CircuitBoyBlue
post Mar 19 2008, 05:30 PM
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I would say a starting magic of 5 would be 40 points, because at the time you actually buy the 5 magic, your max. magic is still 6. It doesn't go down until you take the cyber.

If you reversed the order and bought cyber before you bought attributes, then yes, taking a magic of 5 would cost 55 pts. But in that case, I'd say you wouldn't have to buy magic up to 6 and then whittle it down to 5. You're doing something first. If you're going by RAW, then you're buying up to 6 (65 pts), and ending up with a 5 after your 1 pt. of cyber. If you houserule that you buy cyber first, it takes your max magic down to 5, and you have to pay 55 pts for that, but you already have the cyber. I think what Fortune was saying was that he houserules that you buy magic first, but cyber only takes down max. magic, so you could buy the 5 magic for 40 pts, then buy 1 pt of cyber without incurring any magic loss. So I think that covers both ends of the spectrum, and includes a middle way.
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Mr. Unpronouncea...
post Mar 19 2008, 05:45 PM
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By the RAW, it'd be 65 points, not 55.

Starting magic 1, raised to magic 5 => (5-1)*10 = 40 bp
+
max rating point => 25 bp
losing a point due to cyber => -1 current AND -1 max magic, n/a bp
total = 65 bp.
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